Blue Jays Discussion: The Vladimir Guerrero Jr. injury overreaction thread

[ref88]

Was reminded today of the Syndegaard trade

 

[ShaneFalco]

Was reminded today of the Syndegaard trade

Never happened

 

[kb]

Was reminded today of the Syndegaard trade

AA was the dumbest POS to ever guide this team. All he had to do was do nothing, and this would be a powerhouse team now. FFS.

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

MLB.com put up their draft Top 100 today.

Top 100 MLB Draft Prospects rankings

1. Casey Mize, RHP
2. Carter Stewart, RHP
3. Nick Madrigal, 2B
4. Matthew Liberatore, LHP
5. Brady Singer, RHP
6. Shane McClanahan, LHP
7. Travis Swaggerty, OF
8. Jarred Kelenic, OF
9. Joey Bart, C
10. Jonathan India, 3B
11. Alec Bohm, 3B
12. Ryan Rolison, LHP

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

Orelvis Martinez, SS
Hometown: Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic
Position: SS Age: 16 DOB: 11/19/2001 Bats: R Throws: R Height: 6'1" Weight:188 lb.

Scouting grades: Hit: 50 | Power: 60 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 55

Some scouts look at Martinez and see Rangers third baseman Adrian Beltre at the same age.

Like the young Beltre, Martinez is a hard-hitting infielder with a good projectable body and a strong arm. The infielder runs a 6.8-7.1-second 60-yard timed run and will likely end up as an average runner. It is his bat, arm and power that's expected to carry him through the Minor League ranks and to the big leagues one day.

At the plate, Martinez has a good rhythm and a short, compact swing with plus bat speed. He has a chance to be an above-average hitter with above-average power. There's still some room to grow and get stronger, which leads some evaluators to think Martinez will eventually move from shortstop to third base and still develop into an above-average defender. He's been praised for his solid actions on defense and good body control.

Martinez is from Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic, and trains with Ruddy Santini. The Blue Jays are the favorite to sign the young infielder.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Lost both series against NY and Bos but were right there with them and played well. Must admit I missed yesterday's game though...

 

[deletethis]

AA was the dumbest POS to ever guide this team. All he had to do was do nothing, and this would be a powerhouse team now. FFS.

I think it's forgotten how ugly things were getting in terms of Toronto's attitude towards the Blue Jays. AA (or someone else) had to manufacture some short term success. It's still a business.

BTW, powerhouse how? There's Syndergaard and who else? He traded away a good 2 dozen prospects for a lot of major leaguers, some are still here. That there is one star out of that large traded group isn't surprising. What's surprising is that there is only 1 star. Who of (Best Of's) Castro, D'Arnaud (gone for the season), Barreto, Graveman, Boyd, Norris, Hechavarria and Masirnick would have made this team a juggernaut? What I see is one superstar and a few useful major leaguers (or near major leaguers) that the current team has equivalent or superior players.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

Jairo Labourt would have been star by now. #dynasty

 

[Discoverer]

I think it's forgotten how ugly things were getting in terms of Toronto's attitude towards the Blue Jays. AA (or someone else) had to manufacture some short term success. It's still a business.

BTW, powerhouse how? There's Syndergaard and who else? He traded away a good 2 dozen prospects for a lot of major leaguers, some are still here. That there is one star out of that large traded group isn't surprising. What's surprising is that there is only 1 star. Who of (Best Of's) Castro, D'Arnaud (gone for the season), Barreto, Graveman, Boyd, Norris, Hechavarria and Masirnick would have made this team a juggernaut? What I see is one superstar and a few useful major leaguers (or near major leaguers) that the current team has equivalent or superior players.

In hindsight, the only argument you can make for not having made those trades was that you could have kept the prospects and spent a bunch of money more efficiently than the way payroll was added at the time.

Without using hindsight, the only trade that looked bad at the time was the Dickey trade. The rest looked like outstanding deals.

 

[TF97]

Jairo Labourt would have been star by now. #dynasty

Funny way of spelling Wuilmer Becerra.

 

[zeke]

updated about a week ago:



Team Kids-AA-Traded

1. 3B Lawrie (28): 2417pa, 100wrc+, 3.4war/650pa
2. LF Thames (30): 1294pa, 111wrc+, 1.1war/650pa
3. DH D'Arnaud (29): 1469pa, 96wrc+, 1.4war/650pa
4. C Gomes (30): 2028pa, 91wrc+, 3.0war/650pa
5. RF Snider (30): 1971pa, 93wrc+, 1.3war/650pa
6. 1B Wallace (31): 1440pa, 94wrc+, -0.5war/650pa
7. CF Marisnick (27): 1342pa, 74wrc+, 2.8war/650pa
8. SS Hechavarria (29): 2747pa, 71wrc+, 0.8war/650pa
9. 2B Pastornicky (28): 268pa, 67wrc+, -4.0war/650pa

UT Lugo (23): AAA 55pa, 100wrc+
OF Gose (27): 1252pa, 81wrc+, 1.0war/650pa
IF Barreto (22): 76pa, 58wrc+, -1.7war/650pa
C Perez (26): 610pa, 62wrc+, 1.2war/650pa
OF Becerra (23): A+ 782pa, 104wrc+


SP Syndergaard (25): 65gs, 75era-, 4.9war/32gs
SP Desclafani (28): 56gs, 101era-, 2.4war/32gs
SP Alvarez (28): 95gs, 97era-, 2.2war/32gs
SP Graveman (27): 75gs, 106era-, 1.7war/32gs
SP Boyd (27): 58gs, 123era-, 1.0war/32gs

SP Norris (25): 45gs, 100era-, 1.9war/32gs
SP Hoffman (25): 22gs, 106era-, 1.0war/32gs
SP Musgrove (25): 25gs, 129era-, 0.8war/32gs
SP Nicolino (26): 33gs, 121era-, 0.4war/32gs
SP Nolin (28): 7gs, 172era-, -1.4war/32gs

RP Dyson (30): 257.2ip, 85era-, 0.5war/65ip
RP Collins (28): 211.0ip, 87era-, 0.4war/65ip
RP Rzepczynski (32): 302.1ip, 93era-, 0.3war/65ip
RP Castro (23): 107.0ip, 95era-, 0.0war/65ip
RP Wojciechowski (29): 31.1ip, 79era-, 0.5war/65ip
RP Stewart (31): 28.2ip, 119era-, -0.8war/65ip
RP Rollins (28): 34.1ip, 194era-, -1.1war/65ip
RP Magnuson (32): 14.2ip, 155era-, -0.7ar/65ip

RP DeJong (24): 8.2ip, 74era-, 0.4war/32gs
RP Labourt (24): 6.0ip, 101era-, 0.0war/65ip
RP Comer (25): AAA 70.0ip, 3.73era, 3.80fip, 4.16xfip
RP Labourt (24): AAA 22.0ip, 2.45era, 5.29fip, 5.59xfip
RP Cordero (26): AAA 7.0ip, 5.13era, 3.11fip, 3.54xfip
RP Molina (29): AAA 4.0ip, 13.50era, 8.41fip, 3.53xfip
RP Tirado (23): AA 12.0ip, 6.75era, 7.14fip, 8.54xfip
RP Tinoco (23): AA 9.0ip, 5.00era, 4.18fip, 4.16xfip
RP Wells (22): A 216.2ip, 5.88era, 4.95fip, 4.47xfip

 

[Mach85]

Funny way of spelling Wuilmer Becerra.

Nah, Nestor Molina finna blow. Kenny Williams did it again!

 

[TheMadHatTrick]

updated about a week ago:



Team Kids-AA-Traded

1. 3B Lawrie (28): 2417pa, 100wrc+, 3.4war/650pa
2. LF Thames (30): 1294pa, 111wrc+, 1.1war/650pa
3. DH D'Arnaud (29): 1469pa, 96wrc+, 1.4war/650pa
4. C Gomes (30): 2028pa, 91wrc+, 3.0war/650pa
5. RF Snider (30): 1971pa, 93wrc+, 1.3war/650pa
6. 1B Wallace (31): 1440pa, 94wrc+, -0.5war/650pa
7. CF Marisnick (27): 1342pa, 74wrc+, 2.8war/650pa
8. SS Hechavarria (29): 2747pa, 71wrc+, 0.8war/650pa
9. 2B Pastornicky (28): 268pa, 67wrc+, -4.0war/650pa

UT Lugo (23): AAA 55pa, 100wrc+
OF Gose (27): 1252pa, 81wrc+, 1.0war/650pa
IF Barreto (22): 76pa, 58wrc+, -1.7war/650pa
C Perez (26): 610pa, 62wrc+, 1.2war/650pa
OF Becerra (23): A+ 782pa, 104wrc+


SP Syndergaard (25): 65gs, 75era-, 4.9war/32gs
SP Desclafani (28): 56gs, 101era-, 2.4war/32gs
SP Alvarez (28): 95gs, 97era-, 2.2war/32gs
SP Graveman (27): 75gs, 106era-, 1.7war/32gs
SP Boyd (27): 58gs, 123era-, 1.0war/32gs

SP Norris (25): 45gs, 100era-, 1.9war/32gs
SP Hoffman (25): 22gs, 106era-, 1.0war/32gs
SP Musgrove (25): 25gs, 129era-, 0.8war/32gs
SP Nicolino (26): 33gs, 121era-, 0.4war/32gs
SP Nolin (28): 7gs, 172era-, -1.4war/32gs

RP Dyson (30): 257.2ip, 85era-, 0.5war/65ip
RP Collins (28): 211.0ip, 87era-, 0.4war/65ip
RP Rzepczynski (32): 302.1ip, 93era-, 0.3war/65ip
RP Castro (23): 107.0ip, 95era-, 0.0war/65ip
RP Wojciechowski (29): 31.1ip, 79era-, 0.5war/65ip
RP Stewart (31): 28.2ip, 119era-, -0.8war/65ip
RP Rollins (28): 34.1ip, 194era-, -1.1war/65ip
RP Magnuson (32): 14.2ip, 155era-, -0.7ar/65ip

RP DeJong (24): 8.2ip, 74era-, 0.4war/32gs
RP Labourt (24): 6.0ip, 101era-, 0.0war/65ip
RP Comer (25): AAA 70.0ip, 3.73era, 3.80fip, 4.16xfip
RP Labourt (24): AAA 22.0ip, 2.45era, 5.29fip, 5.59xfip
RP Cordero (26): AAA 7.0ip, 5.13era, 3.11fip, 3.54xfip
RP Molina (29): AAA 4.0ip, 13.50era, 8.41fip, 3.53xfip
RP Tirado (23): AA 12.0ip, 6.75era, 7.14fip, 8.54xfip
RP Tinoco (23): AA 9.0ip, 5.00era, 4.18fip, 4.16xfip
RP Wells (22): A 216.2ip, 5.88era, 4.95fip, 4.47xfip

Based on that list you can see AA seems to treat pitching prospects as a volatile asset; the better to get value out of while you can. It makes some sense given the rate of attrition and injury, but if you trade enough of them a couple will eventually pan out and make you look bad.

Still, losing one stud out of 26 is not that bad, especially considering that one mistake was evident in the immediate aftermath of the trade and not in hindsight. Syndergaard should never have been on the table as an add on to our top prospect, and most fans thought that right away so it's more like 0 for 25.

 

[phillipmike]

AA did very little wrong in his tenure. The 2 big ones were trading Syndergaard and Tulo's contract not Tulo the player so much. Personally i can live with Tulo because every GMs have warts and Tulo did provide value in 2015 and 2016. The big one when it happened and still is an huge loss was Syndergaard - everyone here knew at the time he had the tools and was on the verge of becoming a blue chip prospect.

But AA had way more good than the one bad move even though that Syndergaard was a massive wart in his legacy. AA drafted some great pitchers, Pillar, acquired Donaldson, Alford, Vladdy etc. plus got us to the playoffs for the first time in 20 years where his moves still had a bulk of the impact on the 2016 team too.

 

[Anthrax442]

Obligatory annual question: Is Pillar's bat here to stay?

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

AA did very little wrong in his tenure. The 2 big ones were trading Syndergaard and Tulo's contract not Tulo the player so much. Personally i can live with Tulo because every GMs have warts and Tulo did provide value in 2015 and 2016. The big one when it happened and still is an huge loss was Syndergaard - everyone here knew at the time he had the tools and was on the verge of becoming a blue chip prospect.

But AA had way more good than the one bad move even though that Syndergaard was a massive wart in his legacy. AA drafted some great pitchers, Pillar, acquired Donaldson, Alford, Vladdy etc. plus got us to the playoffs for the first time in 20 years where his moves still had a bulk of the impact on the 2016 team too.

Even Tulo, I'm fine with. Its really just Syndergaard. If I'm trying to be a jerk and make an argument, I go real deep and pull out Trea Turner and Corey Seager, but those aren't really fair.

 

[Discoverer]

Obligatory annual question: Is Pillar's bat here to stay?

Probably not. I thought last year's early-season change might have been real because of the drastic change in plate discipline, but he went back to classic Pillar pretty quickly. This year he's hitting the ball harder, which is obviously great, but he's also swinging and missing more. This is probably just another Pillar hot streak.

 

[Discoverer]

Even Tulo, I'm fine with. Its really just Syndergaard. If I'm trying to be a jerk and make an argument, I go real deep and pull out Trea Turner and Corey Seager, but those aren't really fair.

Unfortunately, the part that makes taking on Tulo's contract "fine" is that they dumped Reyes's contract to balance a lot of it out, so I suppose it's more of a reflection of how poorly the Marlins trade turned out. The Marlins trade was a great one at the time (which is really all any trade should be evaluated on), but it didn't work out well at all.

 

[zeke]

he built an elite team, with an affordable payroll, with next to no longterm commitments, and only lost one worthwhile asset along the way.

 

[phillipmike]

Even Tulo, I'm fine with. Its really just Syndergaard. If I'm trying to be a jerk and make an argument, I go real deep and pull out Trea Turner and Corey Seager, but those aren't really fair.

I agree. Usually individual draft picks fall on the Farm Director or Head Scout. So hard to blame AA specifically. And to be completely honest i remember i didnt want Pentecost and i wanted Turner but i have to acknowledge that i wanted Toussaint too. Also i hated the Davis pick and the Zaun in me told me to hate the Stroman pick because he was short - i remember having the opinion of thinking "pick anyone BUT Stroman." I wanted Giolito and Shaffer - look where Shaffer is now. Also like McCullers and absolutely loved Smoral. Goes to show what i know.

 

[Discoverer]

absolutely loved Smoral

I loved that pick, too.

 

[Eyedea]

he built an elite team, with an affordable payroll, with next to no longterm commitments, and only lost one worthwhile asset along the way.

How is Tulo not a longterm commitment? He’s basically a 20m sunk cost.

 

[zeke]

How is Tulo not a longterm commitment? He’s basically a 20m sunk cost.

the new FO inherited only two contracts longer than 1yr. one had 3yrs left the other 4.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

How is Tulo not a longterm commitment? He’s basically a 20m sunk cost.

the new FO inherited only two contracts longer than 1yr. one had 3yrs left the other 4.

Both of these things are true.

 

[Suntouchable13]

AA did very little wrong in his tenure. The 2 big ones were trading Syndergaard and Tulo's contract not Tulo the player so much. Personally i can live with Tulo because every GMs have warts and Tulo did provide value in 2015 and 2016. The big one when it happened and still is an huge loss was Syndergaard - everyone here knew at the time he had the tools and was on the verge of becoming a blue chip prospect.

But AA had way more good than the one bad move even though that Syndergaard was a massive wart in his legacy. AA drafted some great pitchers, Pillar, acquired Donaldson, Alford, Vladdy etc. plus got us to the playoffs for the first time in 20 years where his moves still had a bulk of the impact on the 2016 team too.

I am a little disappointed that he bought Dickey at his absolute peak value. Did he really think that he was getting a top of the line pitcher?