Blue Jays Discussion: The Vladimir Guerrero Jr. injury overreaction thread

[Eyedea]

I thought he still has potential to be a #1/ace.

He does have that potential, but right now I could list him as a 2. That’s still very good and calls for a 3-4.5 win pitcher.

 

[Lightsol]

Sanchez is a better pitcher then Stroman.yet it seems stroman gets so much hype. Stroman as you know also has a serious disadvantage. ...size . Wouldn't be surprised if at one point in his career he becomes a full time reliever

Is that you, Gregg Zaun?

 

[Marcobruin]

So if I presented you facts that proved Stroman is good, like you know, the stats, would you then agree with me? If I told you the Rays made the playoffs more than once, would you agree that they had a successful model of building, or just continually suggest that Maddon managed them from 60 wins to 90 wins on the regular?

Try not talking in absolutes when you have nothing to back them up

They went 2x to post season.I knew that they had gone more then once yet wiki showed only 2013.
Are you saying that maddon was nit be given credit for?
I'm trying to understand why you're chosing TB as a team which seems to emanate hope to you for this years tor team.It as if you're saying "look tb did it why not tor" now without searching back tb had some strong pitching but anyhow tor isn't in TB level. They csn go out there and sign FAs. Tb is a team thats constantly being sold .

 

[Eyedea]

They went 2x to post season.I knew that they had gone more then once yet wiki showed only 2013.
Are you saying that maddon was nit be given credit for?
I'm trying to understand why you're chosing TB as a team which seems to emanate hope to you for this years tor team.It as if you're saying "look tb did it why not tor" now without searching back tb had some strong pitching but anyhow tor isn't in TB level. They csn go out there and sign FAs. Tb is a team thats constantly being sold .

They made the postseason in 2008, 2010, 2011, and 2013? And missed the postseason in 2012 with a 90 win team. Why would I not use them as an example when they built one of the most deep lineups without paying significant prices.

 

[Marcobruin]

Right , and I can.understand in this regard why you're chosing TB. For instance I was a huge expos fan and ppl would say that they can never win since they have no money and I'd say at the time ...look at the marlins.
Even Houston did most of the building through their minors but here's the difference imo.. again Maddon was there I think for all except maybe 1 of those post season. .you can tell me ...dont feel like searching and I recall those Tb teams having enough to get to post season but not enough to win WS
And I also recall TB not having an incredible potent line up but having excellent pitching and very clutch hitting.
My point is mtl didn't have the money to get big name players..tor does. I don't see tor making the playoffs with this current line up and their kids like guerrero aren't ready yet so they need to get some FAs.I jumped on the jays wagon after we lost the expos .if the expos were still in mtl and had crowds of over 3m and mgnt did relatively nothing towards making the team a competitor.that would be very upsetting.

 

[Eyedea]

Right , and I can.understand in this regard why you're chosing TB. For instance I was a huge expos fan and ppl would say that they can never win since they have no money and I'd say at the time ...look at the marlins.
Even Houston did most of the building through their minors but here's the difference imo.. again Maddon was there I think for all except maybe 1 of those post season. .you can tell me ...dont feel like searching and I recall those Tb teams having enough to get to post season but not enough to win WS
And I also recall TB not having an incredible potent line up but having excellent pitching and very clutch hitting.
My point is mtl didn't have the money to get big name players..tor does. I don't see tor making the playoffs with this current line up and their kids like guerrero aren't ready yet so they need to get some FAs.I jumped on the jays wagon after we lost the expos .if the expos were still in mtl and had crowds of over 3m and mgnt did relatively nothing towards making the team a competitor.that would be very upsetting.

Rays were T-3rd in wRC+ from 2008-2013. THAT was my entire point. They had a potent lineup despite people suggesting that they were mediocre. Like this current Jays squad, they "look" mediocre, but the underlying and even overlying numbers (that people continually fail to see) suggest that they're good.

Getting the big names in free agency isn't necessary, nor should it ever be used as a primary reason to get better.

 

[Marcobruin]

Rays were T-3rd in wRC+ from 2008-2013. THAT was my entire point. They had a potent lineup despite people suggesting that they were mediocre. Like this current Jays squad, they "look" mediocre, but the underlying and even overlying numbers (that people continually fail to see) suggest that they're good.

Getting the big names in free agency isn't necessary, nor should it ever be used as a primary reason to get better.

Cant agree here..i think the jays while pleasant right now are overachieving. I dont see the same talent that TB had and as far as signing big names sure it does not in any way gurantee you a championship but if you sign the right guys it gives a team a better chance of succeeding especially if that respective team in this case tor dont have great talent at most of their position like say a houston. The red sox have spent lots of money and id be very surprised if they aren't there at the end of the season. They also have some fine young players like bogaerts, betts , devers, benintendi,tcomplimented with high profile Fas like martinez kimbrel Price and of course the trade of moncada to get Sale .
The jays do not have these pos player youngsters nor did they sign any notable FA . Again i really dont think if the jays dont make moves that they will be able to keep up this rhytym.
Let me ask you in those years where TB made the playoffs ...was it mostly because of their hitting or pitching?

 

[Eyedea]

If you think the bats are overachieving (hint, they aren't), then I also assume you think the pitching is underachieving (which they are). If you think the Jays are just straight bad, then I won't try to change your opinion.

 

[Marcobruin]

If you think the bats are overachieving (hint, they aren't), then I also assume you think the pitching is underachieving (which they are). If you think the Jays are just straight bad, then I won't try to change your opinion.

All right then youd agree we will know the veracity of this team ability later on during the season. I just hope injuries if applicable isnt used as an excuse...
I dont think that tor is one of the worse teams however i just dont see how they can be a legit competitor with journeyman and some quite aged players . The starting pitching overall is ok but not great. Great reliever in Osuna.
And if youre right and from what i understand you think theyre a playoff team but not a WS team then when will they try to get the pieces to make them a WS team .

 

[Eyedea]

All right then youd agree we will know the veracity of this team ability later on during the season. I just hope injuries if applicable isnt used as an excuse...
I dont think that tor is one of the worse teams however i just dont see how they can be a legit competitor with journeyman and some quite aged players . The starting pitching overall is ok but not great. Great reliever in Osuna.
And if youre right and from what i understand you think theyre a playoff team but not a WS team then when will they try to get the pieces to make them a WS team .

In 2019, when their core positional players are ready.

 

[Marcobruin]

In 2019, when their core positional players are ready.

Wait a minute , im talking this year not next so you agree with me that theyre not a playoff team so again knowing this what did this tor mgnt with a certainly deserving fan base do, to make them a competitor...nothing..

Our argument was that they can be a competitor this year just like in the years of TB and i am saying nope
Or are you saying in 2019 they will be WS caliber and this year theyll get a wild card spot?

 

[Eyedea]

Wait a minute , im talking this year not next so you agree with me that theyre not a playoff team so again knowing this what did this tor mgnt with a certainly deserving fan base do, to make them a competitor...nothing..

Our argument was that they can be a competitor this year just like in the years of TB and i am saying nope
Or are you saying in 2019 they will be WS caliber and this year theyll get a wild card spot?

Wut

You assumed that I said they were a playoff team but not a WS team this year, which is close, because I think every playoff calibre team is a WS contender (to which I also conclude that the Jays are playoff calibre). That doesn't mean that the core positional players will be brought in right away, although I also can't rule that out.

2019 however is when they will become fixtures. My argument is that management brought in suitable placeholders to bridge the gap and compete at the same time.

 

[Marcobruin]

Wut

You assumed that I said they were a playoff team but not a WS team this year, which is close, because I think every playoff calibre team is a WS contender (to which I also conclude that the Jays are playoff calibre). That doesn't mean that the core positional players will be brought in right away, although I also can't rule that out.

2019 however is when they will become fixtures. My argument is that management brought in suitable placeholders to bridge the gap and compete at the same time.

I think i know who you mean by core
(Guerreo jr etc) but just in case can you name them?
If you do mean the guerreos bichettes etc.. Will they make an impact on their rookie season? Maybe even at that they will have to get some excellent FAs
And i havent understood why with so much money the jays have ..they never make a big splash and the fans imo show too much complacency.
From a business standpoint tor should have gotten a big name for the very least to say"thank you fans"
I am certain a devoted jays season ticket holder would have much appreciated that..
On another note it is very difficult to see in the future but i dont see tor challenging for a WS for a long time.
But you see it happening as early as this year hence your comparison with TB

 

[Eyedea]

Vlad Jr, Bichette, Alford, Jansen, Teoscar (who looks to remain with the club), Gurriel, Pompey.

 

[Gargyn]

Vlad Jr, Bichette, Alford, Jansen, Teoscar (who looks to remain with the club), Gurriel, Pompey.

Pompey? Really?

 

[Gargyn]

I think Stroman being as arrogant as he is and believing he is the best pitcher in the league makes people sour on him when he stinks it up and so far this season all he has done is stink it up. I think he’s good but I’ve never thought he’s great. I think his stats will end up between what he is today and what he was last season. He won’t ever win a Cy Young that’s for sure. In a few years he will be behind Pearson and Sanchez for sure. If he hasn’t pissed off management too much by that time.

 

[Muston Atthews]

Pompey? Really?

Just ignore the fact that he listed off almost an entire infield/outfield

 

[Eyedea]

Pompey? Really?

Can't rule it out now that he's actually playing again.

 

[Gargyn]

I think most knowledgeable fans realize this team is overachieving and won’t make the playoffs. Far better teams this year in the East. Indians, Astros, Red Sox, Angels and Yankees are all much better. I also have the Twins and Mariners ahead. Even if they squeaked into the wildcard to play the Yankees, what’s the point? Not like they can hit Severino.

Hopefully Donaldson comes back strong so we can get some stud prospects in return for him, Granderson, Pearce, Happ, Estrada, Clippard, Axford, Travis, etc.

Next season have Guerrero and Solarte at 3, Bichette at SS, Diaz and Gurriel at 2, Smoak at 1, Martin and Jansen at C, Pillar, Hernandez and Alford along with Grichuk in outfield. With Morales at DH along with Solarte et al.

Hopefully we get near MLB ready pitching for our trades as right now it looks like Sanchez, Stroman as your 2 and 3 guys along with Borucki and maybe Pannone as 4 and 5 or Biagini. Need a stud starter and more relievers as always.

 

[TootooTrain]

Pompey? Really?

Pompey is a grey area guy. He's young, has decent tools, will get playing time. But questioning whether or not he's a core player is too early to tell.
Unless your name is Vlad Jr, Carlos Correa, Nolan Arenado, etc, you won't truly know what the player can do until he does it in the bigs.

 

[Eyedea]

Just ignore the fact that he listed off almost an entire infield/outfield

And I didn't include DSjr or Urena, with the former developing one of the best bat-to-ball profiles in the Jays system.

But those still aren't necessarily core guys, while Pompey certainly can hold that sort of ability.

 

[Eyedea]

I think most knowledgeable fans realize this team is overachieving and won’t make the playoffs. Far better teams this year in the East. Indians, Astros, Red Sox, Angels and Yankees are all much better. I also have the Twins and Mariners ahead. Even if they squeaked into the wildcard to play the Yankees, what’s the point? Not like they can hit Severino.

Hopefully Donaldson comes back strong so we can get some stud prospects in return for him, Granderson, Pearce, Happ, Estrada, Clippard, Axford, Travis, etc.

Next season have Guerrero and Solarte at 3, Bichette at SS, Diaz and Gurriel at 2, Smoak at 1, Martin and Jansen at C, Pillar, Hernandez and Alford along with Grichuk in outfield. With Morales at DH along with Solarte et al.

Hopefully we get near MLB ready pitching for our trades as right now it looks like Sanchez, Stroman as your 2 and 3 guys along with Borucki and maybe Pannone as 4 and 5 or Biagini. Need a stud starter and more relievers as always.

If most knowledgeable fans consider the Angels, Twins, and Mariners ahead of the Jays, then I'd have a hard time considering them knowledgeable.

I think Stroman being as arrogant as he is and believing he is the best pitcher in the league makes people sour on him when he stinks it up and so far this season all he has done is stink it up. I think he’s good but I’ve never thought he’s great. I think his stats will end up between what he is today and what he was last season. He won’t ever win a Cy Young that’s for sure. In a few years he will be behind Pearson and Sanchez for sure. If he hasn’t pissed off management too much by that time.

In between 3.09 ERA and 8.55 ERA is a pretty safe assumption

 

[Nineteen67]

This group doesn’t roll over like last years group did. Or it might just be young talented players like Teo and Lourdes have a chance where last year they were simply over-matched.

 

[Discoverer]

Pompey is a grey area guy. He's young, has decent tools, will get playing time. But questioning whether or not he's a core player is too early to tell.
Unless your name is Vlad Jr, Carlos Correa, Nolan Arenado, etc, you won't truly know what the player can do until he does it in the bigs.

Wait... Nolan Arenado? He was roughly the same calibre prospect as Alford. He was never anywhere remotely close to a "can't miss" type prospect.

 

[Discoverer]

If most knowledgeable fans consider the Angels, Twins, and Mariners ahead of the Jays, then I'd have a hard time considering them knowledgeable.

I think we learned in the offseason that there's a subset of fans who, for whatever reason, see the Jays as inherently flawed and are simultaneously completely incapable of seeing the same flaws in their opponents.

It's the epitome of pessimism, but pessimists always think they're just "telling it like it is" and they don't need to back up their opinions with any kind of evidence.