Blue Jays Discussion: The Vladimir Guerrero Jr. injury overreaction thread

[Eyedea]

I agree in general, but the Red Sox are also shelling everyone right now.

They're averaging about a run better than the Jays (thanks to Cobb), I wouldn't say they're shelling everybody.

 

[phillipmike]

not only did they not make a serious add at the deadline, but they used up some of the little trade value they were willing to give up at the deadline to trade for (borderline) prospects.

disgraceful.

And Liriano was and is better than Hutch. Plus his play was important in beating Baltimore.

The deadline is about improving your team and the Jays improved their team AND got prospects. But hey, focus on just the prospects because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

given that they also got 2 prospects back on top of Liriano, clearly they could have traded for an even bigger improvement.

and Liriano only had the opportunity to be a significant factor down the stretch because our FO - get this - decided to shut down our Cy Young contender starting pitcher in the stretch drive to the playoffs.

"Clearly". Hutchison was absolutely awful that year and well basically has been awful since. They took advantage of a front office trying to shed salary. To just assume that there magically was more value for a below average pitcher around the majors is pretty ridiculous. Like I said earlier you keep randomly moving the goal posts on this. Them shutting Sanchez down literally has nothing to do with this at all. It is amazing to me how you go from a rational poster to entirely irrational the second Shapiro or Atkins come into a conversation.

 

[Cloned]

They're averaging about a run better than the Jays (thanks to Cobb), I wouldn't say they're shelling everybody.

Blue Jays are shelling 2 out of 3 pitching staffs every series, so if the Red Sox are a run better, they're pretty much shelling everybody.

 

[Eyedea]

Blue Jays are shelling 2 out of 3 pitching staffs every series, so if the Red Sox are a run better, they're pretty much shelling everybody.

I'll concede that it's pretty much been the last half of the games they've played where they've been on a tear. Their first two series against the Rays and Marlins yielded much more pedestrian, if not putrid offensive numbers. I've been more impressed with their starters though, they're not allowed to be this good. Hopefully JD is good to go for our series against them because I want a bashfest at the dome.

 

[phillipmike]

That was also a disgrace. Absolutely.

And to AA's credit, he realized it was a disgrace, and went out and had the most epic offseason and ensuing trade deadline of all time.

And this is where i dusagree with the blanket view of not making "significant" moves wholeheartedly. First significant moves are subjective and they dont guarantee anything .

I dont blame Shapiro or AA based on their lack of significant moves in 2014 or 2016 respectively or anytime. Its not like they weren't actively trying to improve the team.

AA was looking for upgrades in 2014 and even had a deal with Santana and it fell through. The following offseason his "#1" target was Victor Martinez but he opted to stay in Detroit. AA wanted pitching and infield help in season in 2014 but takes 2 to tango. AA went after Lester and the Cubs offered more... he wanted Hamels in the 2014 offseason and at the 2015 deadline but Hamels declined to waive. AA also had deals for Carrasco in 2014 and Zobrist in 2015. The Jays had better offers for Fister but as AA said the Tigers didn't want to deal with them. For every miss in Darvish and Chapman you have steals like Donaldson and the Bautista/EE contracts.

Shapiro was rumored to be after guys like Grienke, Robertson, JD Martinez, Fowler, Bruce, Gordon, Votto etc. and it didn't work out because they didn't want to come or the price didnt make sense. They finished 2nd for Yelich. They wanted EE. They wanted Ohtani.

Like AA, Shapiro and Atkins are rumored to be after every great player but only if the price makes senses and only if the team wants to trade with you or the player wants to come here. Sometimes it does and it works and sometimes it doesnt and it failed.

So its pretty irrational to judge a front office on their inability to make upgrades when their are many outside variables working against you.

 

[zeke]

And this is where i dusagree with the blanket view of not making "significant" moves wholeheartedly. First significant moves are subjective and they dont guarantee anything .

I dont blame Shapiro or AA based on their lack of significant moves in 2014 or 2016 respectively or anytime. Its not like they weren't actively trying to improve the team.

AA was looking for upgrades in 2014 and even had a deal with Santana and it fell through. The following offseason his "#1" target was Victor Martinez but he opted to stay in Detroit. AA wanted pitching and infield help in season in 2014 but takes 2 to tango. AA went after Lester and the Cubs offered more... he wanted Hamels in the 2014 offseason and at the 2015 deadline but Hamels declined to waive. AA also had deals for Carrasco in 2014 and Zobrist in 2015. The Jays had better offers for Fister but as AA said the Tigers didn't want to deal with them. For every miss in Darvish and Chapman you have steals like Donaldson and the Bautista/EE contracts.

Shapiro was rumored to be after guys like Grienke, Robertson, JD Martinez, Fowler, Bruce, Gordon, Votto etc. and it didn't work out because they didn't want to come or the price didnt make sense. They finished 2nd for Yelich. They wanted EE. They wanted Ohtani.

Like AA, Shapiro and Atkins are rumored to be after every great player but only if the price makes senses and only if the team wants to trade with you or the player wants to come here. Sometimes it does and it works and sometimes it doesnt and it failed.

So its pretty irrational to judge a front office on their inability to make upgrades when their are many outside variables working against you.

AA had a contender at the deadline in 2014 and he choked. It killed his team.

And he knew he it. He didn't deny it. He didn't tell himself the prospects were more valuable. He learned from it. He fixed it. And turned the Jays into a beast.

 

[Eyedea]

A beast that got slayed, unfortunately.

Dwelling on a lack of improvement on the 2016 club doesn't change anything, they got as far as the previous team and just didn't have the luck needed to advance. It's fine though, the trajectory of this ball club looks better than ever.

 

[zeke]

I sure hope next time we have a shot at a championship we don't trade for prospects at the deadline.

 

[Boutette]

Blue Jays are shelling 2 out of 3 pitching staffs every series, so if the Red Sox are a run better, they're pretty much shelling everybody.

The Jays are primarily shelling relief cores. They are struggling for the most part with the starting pitchers they face. *If* they start hitting starters hard as well they'll be a match for what Boston is doing.

 

[phillipmike]

AA had a contender at the deadline in 2014 and he choked. It killed his team.

And he knew he it. He didn't deny it. He didn't tell himself the prospects were more valuable. He learned from it. He fixed it. And turned the Jays into a beast.

And lucky. Not many MVP candidates available for Shapiro and Atkins with 4 years of control for practically a younger average 3B, a high ceiling prospect in Barreto and 2 mediocre low ceiling arms. In fact Shapiro and Atkins were trying to do the exact same by acquiring Yelich. Difference is AA was dealing with Beane who didn't shop him whereas everyone knew Yelich was available and the Jays finished 2nd.

I guess AA did learn from it and addressed the needs but he still lost... his 2015 team still accomplished nothing. Not that i am not grateful for the run and the playoffs but if you are consistent with your evaluation AA went for it and lost in the ALCS. Shapiro didn't go for it in your eyes and lost in the ALCS.

 

[canucksfan]

AA had more prospects to deal with in 2015 compared to 2016 when Shapiro and Atkins didn't have as many.

 

[MapleLeafistan]

So TFC lost 2-0. Looks like Jays game getting postponed. Not a great start to this Saturday lineup.

How are the Marlies doing?

 

[Eyedea]

I sure hope next time we have a shot at a championship we don't trade for prospects at the deadline.

Take another look at the 2016 deadline, the biggest pieces that moved were Miller and Chapman.

 

[zeke]

Miller would have been nice.

what team traded for him again?

 

[phillipmike]

I sure hope next time we have a shot at a championship we don't trade for prospects at the deadline.

Liriano, Navarro, Feldman, Grilli, Benoit and Upton are pretty old to be considered prospects.

I dont know what else the Jays could have done. Their needs were bullpen arms, catcher and a LF.

They had the best and the most healthiest rotation in the AL. The 2nd best team wRC+ of all AL playoff teams. Had strongholds at all positions in Martin, EE, Travis, Tulo, Donaldson, Bautista and Pillar. Their "weakest" spot was an all star in Saunders who they acquired a 1.5 WAR player in 374 PAs (20-20 player) to push Saunders to the DH role to get Smoak's bat out of the lineup.

So they got a LFer, a backup catcher and 4 pen arms in Liriano, Grilli, Feldman, and Benoit. Navarro was a 0.3 WAR upgrade on Thole. Liriano, Feldman, Grilli and Benoit put up a combined WAR of 1.7 in that pen. Only Upton was a disappointment who was surprisingly the best player they traded for but gave them the worst production but no real loss, he cost you 6M in money over 2 years and a depth prospect.

So they traded for Liriano, Feldman, Grilli, Upton, Benoit and Navarro but lets focus on Harold Ramirez and Reese McGuire.

BUT yeah we traded JUST for prospects

 

[phillipmike]

Jays-Indians will be rescheduled for May 3rd at 1pm.

 

[canucksfan]

A lot of games cancelled today, Buffalo and Lansing games have been postponed.

 

[metafour]

Miller would have been nice.

what team traded for him again?

The team that gave up Clint Frazier (15th MLB.com, 21st BA) and Justus Sheffield (78th MLB.com, 68th BA) to get a reliever.

You think that we feasibly beat that package after Boy Wonder gutted the entire top end of our system to get superstars like Troy Tulowitzki the year before? Who do you trade for Andrew Miller?

You are beyond obtuse. How salty are you BTW that Aledmys Diaz (playing for pennies on the dollar) is here saving the team because Captain Foresight's billion dollar Glass Man is as useless as everyone expected him to be LOL.

 

[Woodman19]

I guess we should have gave up a prospect like Hernandez for Liriano since it worked for the Astros last year. Or is Liriano not considered the type of player a team trying to win a championship would trade for?

 

[phillipmike]

Miller would have been nice.

what team traded for him again?

And how many world series did that team win? They have the same amount as the 2016 Jays have.

The 2016 post season Jays Bullpen wasn't the issue. They pitched 22.2 innings gave up 2 ERs, struck out 24 and walked 5. And 1 of those 2 ERs scored after a line drive went off Liriano's head. The 2nd run was scored after Osuna came in with a runner on 3B who scored after Osuna induced a ground out. The Jays 2016 bullpen was perfect in run prevention with the exception of 1 inning in a game they won.

Plus what prospects did the Jays have in 2016 to give up to get Miller? Yankees got the 15th and 74th best prospect in baseball in Frazier and Sheffield plus 2 more. We would have had to deal Vladdy to get Miller and who knows if the Yankees deal with us.

 

[canucksfan]

In 2015 AA did the correct thing. His trades were very successful for that run. Tulo has been a problem since 2015 though. He has been injured and his play has been poor. The prospects the Jays gave up haven't really turned out.

Because AA's trades, the prospect pool was depleted. In 2016, the team was set except for a few positions. Management made some very good trades to improve the bullpen. They got back Navarro as a backup catcher. They got Upton which turned out to be a bad pickup. Management didn't really have the assets to make a huge splash like occurred in 2015.

 

[Rysto]

So the Cubs just had one of the most bonkers innings I've ever heard of. Losing 10-5 in the 8th, they score 9 runs on 3 hits. Every run was scored with 2 outs, and they didn't even hit any HRs! Look at this:

Hayward hit by pitch.
Schwarber struck out.
La Stella singled.
Navarro struck out.
Bryant hit by pitch.
Contreras infield single for 1 RBI.
Zobrist walked for 1 RBI.
Baez doubled for 3 RBI.
Russel intentionally walked.
Heyward walked.
Schwarber walked for 1 RBI.
La Stella walked for 1 RBI.
Heyward scores on a wild pitch. Schwarber scores on a throwing error by the catcher.
Navarro struck out.

 

[Longshot]

So the Cubs just had one of the most bonkers innings I've ever heard of. Losing 10-5 in the 8th, they score 9 runs on 3 hits. Every run was scored with 2 outs, and they didn't even hit any HRs! Look at this:

Hayward hit by pitch.
Schwarber struck out.
La Stella singled.
Navarro struck out.
Bryant hit by pitch.
Contreras infield single for 1 RBI.
Zobrist walked for 1 RBI.
Baez doubled for 3 RBI.
Russel intentionally walked.
Heyward walked.
Schwarber walked for 1 RBI.
La Stella walked for 1 RBI.
Heyward scores on a wild pitch. Schwarber scores on a throwing error by the catcher.
Navarro struck out.

That is unreal.

 

[canucksfan]