Blue Jays Discussion: The Vladimir Guerrero Jr. injury overreaction thread

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TheBeastCoast

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Mar 23, 2011
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I am giving the only context that matters.
Right yes. That is absolutely zero context. The funny thing though is you are still wrong without context. Would the trade have somehow gotten better for the Jays if you took the two prospects out and it was just Hutch for Liriano? This is actually hilarious.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
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Right yes. That is absolutely zero context. The funny thing though is you are still wrong without context. Would the trade have somehow gotten better for the Jays if you took the two prospects out and it was just Hutch for Liriano? This is actually hilarious.

You care about winning trades, I care about winning championships.

Your context is rubbish. I could care less that we "won" a minor trade at a trade deadline in between 2 ALCS appearances and might get a future backup catcher out of the deal. Big F'n whup.
 

TheBeastCoast

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Mar 23, 2011
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You care about winning trades, I care about winning championships.

Your context is rubbish. I could care less that we "won" a minor trade at a trade deadline in between 2 ALCS appearances and might get a future backup catcher out of the deal. Big F'n whup.
If you want to argue that they didn't do enough at that deadline that is fair. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Liriano trade was a good deal or not though.
 

doorman

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I am giving the only context that matters.
You do also realize it takes 2 GM's to make a deal right? And, I would hope my teams GM doesn't just give the opposing teams GM whatever they want for an impact player which would;ve made certain fans and media happy. If they had traded Vlad for say Verlander would you be pleased with the deal? Smart GM's make trade that make sense for their teams short and long term and don't always do what media and fans pressure them to do. That context always matters.
 

zeke

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If you want to argue that they didn't do enough at that deadline that is fair. That has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the Liriano trade was a good deal or not though.

It has everything to do with it.
 

Buckleys

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Jul 21, 2006
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What I don't understand is, getting Ramirez and McGuire in the Liriano trade doesn't mean anything about championship aspirations. The Jays solved an issue for that year and the next season for a starting pitcher (depth for that year) and took advantage of the Pirates shedding salary. They absorbed the Liriano contract, got better and got two prospects in the process by taking advantage of the situation.
 
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hoc123

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Value for value the Liriano trade was fine, the argument being made here is that its pathetic that an ALCS teams biggest acquisition at the following deadline was Francisco Liriano and that instead of using Hutch's extra value to get another roster player in that deal or flipping Ramirez and McGuire in other deals they just stood pat and stocked them for later.

But that's not his point, or at least he is arguing it very badly. His point isn't that the Jays 2016 trade deadline was bad because they didn't get any big roster players, a point I would debate but is a reasonable point to make. He's arguing that the specific Hutchison trade was bad, because prospects were involved. That makes absolutely no sense. He arguing the point like the Jays could only make one trade and they chose the Liriano trade.
 

hoc123

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The funny thing is about Zeke's argument is that there is a decent case to be made that if the Liriano trade does not happen, then the Jays don't even make the playoffs that year.
 

TheBeastCoast

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It has everything to do with it.
You are talking yourself in circles. At first you said it was a "rubbish move" and now you are saying you could care less whether we won the deal because you didn't like our deadline. Stop moving the goal posts. If we are discussing the Liriano trade how does the rest of the Jays deadline whether you deem it to be good or bad have anything to do with the outcome of this trade? I am honestly curious. The Jays were objectively better at the major league level that season with Liriano instead of Hutch. That is really the bottom line.
 

phillipmike

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They traded for prospects instead of trying to turn their alcs team into a champs team. Inexcusable.

They still made the playoffs 2016. How about in 2014 when you are in a wildcard spot also tied with the most wins in your division and you make no significant addition to help your team? That has to be worse in your eyes, no?

MLB Scores, Standings, Box Scores for Thursday, July 31, 2014 | Baseball-Reference.com

Only Zeke could take a im happy with Hernandez play and that the Jays got him into a Shapiro and Atkins bashfest.
 
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zeke

The Dube Abides
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You are talking yourself in circles. At first you said it was a "rubbish move" and now you are saying you could care less whether we won the deal because you didn't like our deadline. Stop moving the goal posts. If we are discussing the Liriano trade how does the rest of the Jays deadline whether you deem it to be good or bad have anything to do with the outcome of this trade? I am honestly curious. The Jays were objectively better at the major league level that season with Liriano instead of Hutch. That is really the bottom line.

No, I am talking in as straight a line as there possibly could be.

We were a contender, and we traded for prospects at the deadline. It was a disgrace.
 

phillipmike

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No, I am talking in as straight a line as there possibly could be.

We were a contender, and we traded for prospects at the deadline. It was a disgrace.

You do realize that they got the better player in Liriano in the deal AND prospects. One who is one of your better catching prospects now.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
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How? How did the Liriano trade do anything to dissuade them from making another trade to improve the roster?

not only did they not make a serious add at the deadline, but they used up some of the little trade value they were willing to give up at the deadline to trade for (borderline) prospects.

disgraceful.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
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You do realize that they got the better player in Liriano in the deal AND prospects. One who is one of your better catching prospects now.

yes, they "won" the trade.

next time we have a back to back ALCS team, we can trade for prospects and win trades again, too.
 

phillipmike

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Oct 27, 2009
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yes, they "won" the trade.

next time we have a back to back ALCS team, we can trade for prospects and win trades again, too.

So are you for losing trades? Because had they "went" for it in your eyes like they did in 2015 they could have... gasp... not won anything either. But its all about optics for you not actually winning.
 

zeke

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Did the Liriano trade make the Jays major league roster better?

given that they also got 2 prospects back on top of Liriano, clearly they could have traded for an even bigger improvement.

and Liriano only had the opportunity to be a significant factor down the stretch because our FO - get this - decided to shut down our Cy Young contender starting pitcher in the stretch drive to the playoffs.
 

hoc123

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Feb 23, 2014
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not only did they not make a serious add at the deadline, but they used up some of the little trade value they were willing to give up at the deadline to trade for (borderline) prospects.

disgraceful.
Drew Hutchison had essentially no trade value. He's the equivalent of Jurickson Profar today, but with even less trade value. And again, the fact they didn't want to trade prospects doesn't mean the trade itself was bad, it means you disagree with their vision of the team.
 

Cloned

Begging for Bega
Aug 25, 2003
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Don't let this argument distract you from the fact that Cobb had his debut today, and he got absolutely shelled by the Bo Sox.

I agree in general, but the Red Sox are also shelling everyone right now.
 

Eyedea

The Legend Continues
Jan 29, 2012
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They still made the playoffs 2016. How about in 2014 when you are in a wildcard spot also tied with the most wins in your division and you make no significant addition to help your team? That has to be worse in your eyes, no?

MLB Scores, Standings, Box Scores for Thursday, July 31, 2014 | Baseball-Reference.com

Only Zeke could take a im happy with Hernandez play and that the Jays got him into a Shapiro and Atkins bashfest.

No no, that was AA. This is different man, get it through your head.
 
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zeke

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Drew Hutchison had essentially no trade value. He's the equivalent of Jurickson Profar today, but with even less trade value. And again, the fact they didn't want to trade prospects doesn't mean the trade itself was bad, it means you disagree with their vision of the team.

The trade - without any context - wasn't "bad". The trade - without any context - was a "win".

But praising the FO for "winning" a minor trade for prospects at a trade deadline where they were contending is to completely miss the entire point of sports.
 

zeke

The Dube Abides
Mar 14, 2005
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They still made the playoffs 2016. How about in 2014 when you are in a wildcard spot also tied with the most wins in your division and you make no significant addition to help your team? That has to be worse in your eyes, no?

MLB Scores, Standings, Box Scores for Thursday, July 31, 2014 | Baseball-Reference.com

That was also a disgrace. Absolutely.

And to AA's credit, he realized it was a disgrace, and went out and had the most epic offseason and ensuing trade deadline of all time.
 
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