The Tank Thread - 2022-23 edition (Lottery Drawing 05/08/23 7PM)

[TaketheCannoli]

I would actually imagine it's much easier to find great players with bad habits than it is great players with great habits.


All these kids have spent the ages 12/13-18/19 being top dog on campus in a culture where parties and getting f***ed up with your boys is glorified not to mention they are away from their families and now they get a big boy salary to add fuel to the fire. Even with all the coaches and trainers around them, it's easy for these kids to build up bad habits.

You mean Filly don't do rebounds?

 

[majormajor]

I would actually imagine it's much easier to find great players with bad habits than it is great players with great habits.


All these kids have spent the ages 12/13-18/19 being top dog on campus in a culture where parties and getting f***ed up with your boys is glorified not to mention they are away from their families and now they get a big boy salary to add fuel to the fire. Even with all the coaches and trainers around them, it's easy for these kids to build up bad habits.

I don't tend to think that super skilled guys are more likely to have character issues, but even if they're saintly, they're not going to turn around a bad locker room when they're 18, 19, 20 years old. Like in the Sabres room they would pick on guys for trying too hard, a teenager coming in like Eichel or Dahlin isn't going to be the one to fix that problem.

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

Good work, men. You had me scared last night for a bit.

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

Currently #7 in lottery today.

 

[spintheblackcircle]

Why not?

 

[ThisIsMyAlibi]

Currently projected to select #4 overall.

 

[JohnnyJacket13]

This team needs to commit to bottoming out this year if Larsen is going to stick around any longer

 

[Cowumbus]

Currently projected to select #4 overall.

Leo Carlson would be nice as 2C next year

 

[ViD]

If we get a top 3 pick, we’re very likely getting a star played drafted

 

[NotCommitted]

They've gone 3-5-0 and already people are wanting everyone and their dog fired, and currently that record is only bad enough for #7

I'm not convinced they could survive actual tanking. If they made management and roster choices that made it apparent they are tanking, maybe that could help some with the fans, but even then... and there's never any guarantee with a tank you're not ruining the team and culture for years. For every team which has enjoyed success after tanking for a couple top picks, there are a bunch which were stuck at the bottom for years.

Ok, to be sensible about it they could have all the young guys play winning hockey in the AHL, but that would mean the actual NHL team would be stuck in development and filled with guys who are playing there only because the management think they are bad enough for tanking. Coaching would also realize they are given a very bad roster with no chance of success and that once the tanking is over, it's highly likely they'll be replaced. Established NHLers would be stuck in playing losing hockey which I'm sure really kills the fun out of the game and Laine & Werenski for example would be wasting some of their prime years. Also the clock is ticking for Gaudreau, realistically he has like 4-5 prime years left and even then Gaudreau at 34 probably is not going to be as good of a player as Gaudreau at 30.

Yeah, if all goes well, they could come out of the draft with a top end talent possibly ready to contribute already in 23-24 or at least by 24-25, but there is more risk in tanking than some people are seemingly willing to admit.

 

[EspenK]

Someone please explain to me how adding Bedard or Fantilli or Carlson would continue the suck for years to come? What will continue sucking for years will be if the D & goaltending doesn't improve.

 

[tunnelvision]

Someone please explain to me how adding Bedard or Fantilli or Carlson would continue the suck for years to come?

Is this a rhetorical question or you're just ignoring the recent post in the Larsen thread?

Why don't you explain us first how "the suck" this year required to get any of those players wouldn't affect the team negatively in the coming years?

And if your answer is going to be the same "momentum does not carry over from season to season" theory then I'd like to hear more about the reasoning behind it since last time we had this conversation I felt like we didn't even scratch the surface.

 

[DarkandStormy]

The Jackets have taken the lead in the tank standings.

 

[MissADD]

View attachment 603163

The Jackets have taken the lead in the tank standings.

 

[LJ7]

View attachment 603163

The Jackets have taken the lead in the tank standings.

I never thought I'd be switching sides but I've gotta be honest this draft class is unreal. We'll see if the guys can turn it around but if not you won't see me crying about it.

 

[KJ Dangler]

send Johnson, Sillinger, Tarasov, Jiricek, Chinakov down, and trade Nyquist …. draft your #1 center , new coaching staff, announced rebrand to the Cannon as primary brand, and ride the confidence the core of this team builds going deep in the AHL playoffs

 

[ViD]

I for one have absolutely no problem tanking if getting Bedard can change our franchise like Crosby and Ovechkin did for the Pens and Caps

 

[Finner]

Start the rebuild. Everyone over 27yo bye. Yep that includes Johnny Gaudreau. Get that young 1C or 1D and then collect picks as many as you can.

 

[majormajor]

Start the rebuild. Everyone over 27yo bye. Yep that includes Johnny Gaudreau.

Most ridiculous thing I've read today and I didn't think I'd have to say that again.

Johnny has a lot of elite years left, players of his type are often elite into their mid 30s.

We need more good veterans, not less. The "blind leading the blind" thing is a big part of our problem where we constantly cycle through immature young players.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

I for one have absolutely no problem tanking if getting Bedard can change our franchise like Crosby and Ovechkin did for the Pens and Caps

But how are we to know about the “if” part ahead of time? Because otherwise you’re opposed to the tank, right?

“If” we can finish in a place where we could potentially get him.
“If” the lottery works out.
“If” he becomes a difference-maker.

How much “if” is too much?

 

[EspenK]

Is this a rhetorical question or you're just ignoring the recent post in the Larsen thread?

Why don't you explain us first how "the suck" this year required to get any of those players wouldn't affect the team negatively in the coming years?

And if your answer is going to be the same "momentum does not carry over from season to season" theory then I'd like to hear more about the reasoning behind it since last time we had this conversation I felt like we didn't even scratch the surface.

I would hope that it would affect the team negatively in the same way drafting MacKinnon, Landeskog & Rantanen affected Colorado several years down the road.

As to momentum it doesn't even always carry over from period to period much less from season to season. Momentum swings in many different ways. Just look at the SC hangover theory. You would expect the defending SC champs to storm out of the gate in the following season. Don't have to look any further than this year and the Avs to see that "momentum" didn't work out as I'm sure Av fans expected. Remember the Jackets 12-1 finsh in 2014-15 to end the season? I believe that was followed by an 0-8 start the next season.

Adding a potential 1C will over time will benefit this team much more than stopping this years skid and finishing 12-14th and hoping that the guy we pick will do the same.

It is obvious this team as constructed is not very good. What needs to happen is to have a plan in place to improve it over the next few years. There is a lot of individual talent both on the current roster and in the pipeline. What needs to happen is defining what kind of team is desired, finding the right coaching staff to develop it and finally put the right players together to make it happen.

Easier said than done but it isn't going to happen any other way.

Nyquist needs to go at the TDL. Jake too if a team or teams can be found to absorb his cap hit. Adding a few more picks in next years draft increase the odds of finding the right guys to fit the team's envisioned style.

 

[tunnelvision]

I would hope that it would affect the team negatively in the same way drafting MacKinnon, Landeskog & Rantanen affected Colorado several years down the road.

Future 1C MacKinnon drafted in 2013. The next 4 seasons for the Avs with MacKinnon and Landeskog:
Lost in Round 1
Out of Playoffs, drafted Rantanen with pick #10
Out of Playoffs
Out of Playoffs

Should CBJ also scramble for another 4 years or so after gaining high pick for 2023 draft? That's their masterplan? Which core players are going to get traded down the road, who is our O'Reilly and Duchene? Werenski, Laine, Gaudreau? Let's hope they'll grab the next MacKinnon with that top pick instead of future Dylan Strome or Jonathan Drouin.

As to momentum it doesn't even always carry over from period to period much less from season to season. Momentum swings in many different ways. Just look at the SC hangover theory. You would expect the defending SC champs to storm out of the gate in the following season. Don't have to look any further than this year and the Avs to see that "momentum" didn't work out as I'm sure Av fans expected. Remember the Jackets 12-1 finsh in 2014-15 to end the season? I believe that was followed by an 0-8 start the next season.

And then there are a whole lot of counterexamples where teams have multiple consecutive successful seasons. Tampa for example. I don't see how this is a strong argument to support your theory.

It is obvious this team as constructed is not very good. What needs to happen is to have a plan in place to improve it over the next few years. There is a lot of individual talent both on the current roster and in the pipeline. What needs to happen is defining what kind of team is desired, finding the right coaching staff to develop it and finally put the right players together to make it happen.

Sure. Do you think they haven't done that type of planning yet?

 

[Crede777]

Most ridiculous thing I've read today and I didn't think I'd have to say that again.

Johnny has a lot of elite years left, players of his type are often elite into their mid 30s.

We need more good veterans, not less. The "blind leading the blind" thing is a big part of our problem where we constantly cycle through immature young players.

Completely agreed.

Let the team play out the season and give the young guys experience. Change the coach if the locker room is too toxic or defeated much in the same way you'd pull a goalie to try to spark the team. Trade veterans who have indicated an unwillingness to return at the TDL.

In the offseason, heavily recruit a new coaching staff, draft BPA and try to trade for a veteran top-6 center. Look to move a redundant undersized defenseman as a significant component of the package. Also consider sending Gudbranson to LTIR island.

You don't panic and you mainly look to take care of the guys who are already here and reassure them this was just a hiccup. Most teams have a rocky retool or rebuild but we'll get through this.

 

[KJ Dangler]

For anyone arguing against the tank.. name our top 2 centers currently/ in the organization? .. and explain to me why we have been lacking a #1 center for the whole franchise existence .. minus a half season of Duchene . Those guys tend to be top 3 picks, especially ones that can slot into the nhl immediately. Without that said player, our normal drafting .. grabbing a center 8-15 range ,most Likely you are looking at 3yrs development before that player is remotely an impact player at nhl level . Thats where we are currently … Is Sillinger a top 2 center in the NHL ? Is KJ ? Sillinger , I’m not sure unless he can drastically improve his skating… Jarmo is great at adding talented players , but there is a blueprint on what you need to be successful , and during his whole time here , they haven’t drafted or traded for that #1 c you need .

Honestly , I would send KJ down, let him play center, he would play between Bemstrom, Marchenko, work on his faceoffs , build confidence .. send Chinakov, Sillinger , down as well…

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Start the rebuild. Everyone over 27yo bye. Yep that includes Johnny Gaudreau. Get that young 1C or 1D and then collect picks as many as you can.

I think that's a really bad take. That approach is the road to becoming the Sabres of the last 10 or so years, or the Oilers from 2009 until Draisatl and McDavid.
What this team needs is a hockey operations that is great at finding talent, drafting and developing talent along with building. blend of strong experienced leaders who can mentor that young talent.

But how are we to know about the “if” part ahead of time? Because otherwise you’re opposed to the tank, right?

“If” we can finish in a place where we could potentially get him.
“If” the lottery works out.
“If” he becomes a difference-maker.

How much “if” is too much?

You don't know, do you?