Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Nope, Still Nothing ...

[Shady Machine]

FYI, Nick Bonino was a -2 tonight with zero points and sub 50% on the dot in his debut for the Preds.

Extremely insightful!!

 

[madinsomniac]

Do people still think we are fine as-is until the trade deadline?

Yep... the first 5 games were a brutal setup for us... this was discussed when the schedule was posted. Add to that letang being rusty as hell and the D not gelling yet and no one is panicking

 

[Asuna]

pens call up jarry and ruhwedel. haha

 

[ColePens]

I don't think certain users understand the concept of salary cap era. For those who *****, whine, and complain that it isn't perfect all the time, it never will be. That's the art of the salary cap era. Sometimes not making moves and having the cap space to keep your young players is the way to go. Sometimes making very difficult decisions like saying goodbye to Fleury/Bones/Cully/etc. make the team worse at first, but the longtime gain from the right cap decision benefits the team waaaay more down the road. Also - players choose where they want to go. Sometimes the team has no say. Cully went to Minnesota. Moore barely made the Toronto team and might not stick. MAF was an insane luxury that I wish we could have every year, but it's not possible unless it's at the expense of a lot of players.

The team needs center depth and to stick with their identity. We all know that. And we are still in a good position without creating issues down the road. Sometimes being able to pull the trigger is a great situation to be in. We have to survive and thrive in current state and then we have the ability to make the moves that best fit this team once they become available. The art is not to be impatient and pull the trigger ASAP. Sometimes players aren't available until teams see where they are. That's the art here. That's the game.

So when you want to whine and cry about certain things just simply remember this isn't NHL 18 where you can pull the trigger at any moment.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't think certain users understand the concept of salary cap era. For those who *****, whine, and complain that it isn't perfect all the time, it never will be. That's the art of the salary cap era. Sometimes not making moves and having the cap space to keep your young players is the way to go. Sometimes making very difficult decisions like saying goodbye to Fleury/Bones/Cully/etc. make the team worse at first, but the longtime gain from the right cap decision benefits the team waaaay more down the road. Also - players choose where they want to go. Sometimes the team has no say. Cully went to Minnesota. Moore barely made the Toronto team and might not stick. MAF was an insane luxury that I wish we could have every year, but it's not possible unless it's at the expense of a lot of players.

The team needs center depth and to stick with their identity. We all know that. And we are still in a good position without creating issues down the road. Sometimes being able to pull the trigger is a great situation to be in. We have to survive and thrive in current state and then we have the ability to make the moves that best fit this team once they become available. The art is not to be impatient and pull the trigger ASAP. Sometimes players aren't available until teams see where they are. That's the art here. That's the game.

So when you want to whine and cry about certain things just simply remember this isn't NHL 18 where you can pull the trigger at any moment.

Bonino was easily affordable for us and would still likely retain value in a trade in two years.

Shady and I understand the salary cap fine. We spent the money we had on a #6 defenseman and an enforcer.

Move Hagelin packaged with a pick.

The Salary Cap also involves taking advantage of your window. If we are 1st round exits the next two years, but we kept the youth, is that a logical move?

 

[billybudd]

I'd put in a claim on Pickard. Partly due to what Niemi looks like and partly because I just like him better than Niemi.

 

[ColePens]

Bonino was easily affordable for us and would still likely retain value in a trade in two years.

Shady and I understand the salary cap fine. We spent the money we had on a #6 defenseman and an enforcer.

Move Hagelin packaged with a pick.

The Salary Cap also involves taking advantage of your window. If we are 1st round exits the next two years, but we kept the youth, is that a logical move?

I more-so lump you in with pens x, so don't put yourself with Shady.

Move hags to whom and for what and why? Re-sign Bones at 4.1 why? Do you think Bones is the reason we lost 10-1 last night? You think if we sign Bones and move Hags last night is a different game?

Reaves has been beat to death. I was one of the many not happy because I love our identity. But I still don't think it's fair to call it a huge bust 2 games in. I was pissed when it happened just like everyone else. But that's where you are insufferable. 2 games is not a fair assessment. Do I personally think he will ever fit our system? No. I said so on Day 1. But I'm all for giving time to make the right determination. I gave my opinion, backed off, and am not waiting to analyze it. I don't get all pumped up because I get to scream I'm right 2 games into the season. That's honestly pathetic.

And with the Reaves thing, we spent like 700k from what a player would normally cost there? And there is no term. So you also have to consider risk/reward. That changes the game on a lot of decisions.

 

[Gurglesons]

I more-so lump you in with pens x, so don't put yourself with Shady.

Move hags to whom and for what and why? Re-sign Bones at 4.1 why? Do you think Bones is the reason we lost 10-1 last night? You think if we sign Bones and move Hags last night is a different game?

Reaves has been beat to death. I was one of the many not happy because I love our identity. But I still don't think it's fair to call it a huge bust 2 games in. I was pissed when it happened just like everyone else. But that's where you are insufferable. 2 games is not a fair assessment. Do I personally think he will ever fit our system? No. I said so on Day 1. But I'm all for giving time to make the right determination. I gave my opinion, backed off, and am not waiting to analyze it. I don't get all pumped up because I get to scream I'm right 2 games into the season. That's honestly pathetic.

And with the Reaves thing, we spent like 700k from what a player would normally cost there? And there is no term. So you also have to consider risk/reward. That changes the game on a lot of decisions.

I think having to use a line like Jake - Crosby - Sheary as a defensive line is a big reason we got blown out.

I think lack of center depth is the reason we have lost the two games pretty miserably in regards to defensive play, yes.

I also think Rutherford's new idea of size and physicality injected into our roster has the grounds of being worrying.

You're criticizing people about their understanding of the salary cap. We understand the salary cap. We misused the salary cap and our roster this year in the offseason. I have been adamant I think it is correctable, but it is likely going to cost us our 1st and 2nd which I'd rather have kept and signed Bonino.

 

[Peat]

There are no sane conclusions on the roster to be drawn from these two games.

And the closest thing to sane you would get from that is blow it up and start again.

 

[Peat]

I think having to use a line like Jake - Crosby - Sheary as a defensive line is a big reason we got blown out.

60% OZ starts is a defensive line now?

 

[ColePens]

I think having to use a line like Jake - Crosby - Sheary as a defensive line is a big reason we got blown out.

I think lack of center depth is the reason we have lost the two games pretty miserably in regards to defensive play, yes.

I also think Rutherford's new idea of size and physicality injected into our roster has the grounds of being worrying.

You're criticizing people about their understanding of the salary cap. We understand the salary cap. We misused the salary cap and our roster this year in the offseason. I have been adamant I think it is correctable, but it is likely going to cost us our 1st and 2nd which I'd rather have kept and signed Bonino.

I think the issue you don't see is that you are so hell bent on being right instead of enjoying the process. A lot of us ARE concerned about the Center depth but are waiting to see it play out. We aren't calling for heads and screaming like it's the end of the world (as you did all summer). It's like having 10 million dollars and bitching/complaining that you don't have 20 million. Cool! It makes you insufferable. Pens are coming off back to back championships. The only team to do it in the cap era. I feel that should give cushion and I feel that should give allowance to believe. I think that is normal. All those concerns exist among all of us, but we take it all into consideration from a whole picture.

Do many of us already believe Reaves was a disaster from the minute we signed him? Yes.. but we are waiting to see to make a fair assessment. Do many of us know the center issue is a priority? Yes. 100% yes. But we aren't trying to scream from the top of our lungs that we were right. We are watching to see where it goes and make a fair assessment.

And no.. the lack of center depth is not the reason we lost those games. GOODNESS that is absurd. Rewatch those games and take a look at our defense. And don't pinpoint one guy because you want to. That's a collective headscratch. There is talent there.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

I think having to use a line like Jake - Crosby - Sheary as a defensive line is a big reason we got blown out.

I think lack of center depth is the reason we have lost the two games pretty miserably in regards to defensive play, yes.

I also think Rutherford's new idea of size and physicality injected into our roster has the grounds of being worrying.

You're criticizing people about their understanding of the salary cap. We understand the salary cap. We misused the salary cap and our roster this year in the offseason. I have been adamant I think it is correctable, but it is likely going to cost us our 1st and 2nd which I'd rather have kept and signed Bonino.

As has been talked to great nausium both here and the trade board. Bonino was less about the annual salary and more about the term, going forward we are going to have to resign in the next 2 off seasons Guentzel, Rust, Wilson, Sprong, and ZAR. Not to mention many other role playing players that are coming off of RFA deals. We also have the Hornqvist resigning in the offseason, signing Bonino to the term and salary he wanted was not good cap management.

And this trade deadline to be honest about picks, even if we had kept both Cully and Bones, we are going for a 3rd consecutive Stanley Cup, nothing in terms of the "piggy" bank of assets is off the table. To use a poker reference, shove it all in the center go all in, because this is the first chance in the salary cap era to make a true dynasty, and probably the last one we will see for some time. Personally I do not care if JR trades an entire year of picks 1-7 as long as it gets the Penguins a 3rd straight cup and etches them into the list of one of the greatest hockey teams of all time.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the issue you don't see is that you are so hell bent on being right instead of enjoying the process. A lot of us ARE concerned about the Center depth but are waiting to see it play out. We aren't calling for heads and screaming like it's the end of the world (as you did all summer). It's like having 10 million dollars and bitching/complaining that you don't have 20 million. Cool! It makes you insufferable. Pens are coming off back to back championships. The only team to do it in the cap era. I feel that should give cushion and I feel that should give allowance to believe. I think that is normal. All those concerns exist among all of us, but we take it all into consideration from a whole picture.

Do many of us already believe Reaves was a disaster from the minute we signed him? Yes.. but we are waiting to see to make a fair assessment. Do many of us know the center issue is a priority? Yes. 100% yes. But we aren't trying to scream from the top of our lungs that we were right. We are watching to see where it goes and make a fair assessment.

And no.. the lack of center depth is not the reason we lost those games. GOODNESS that is absurd. Rewatch those games and take a look at our defense. And don't pinpoint one guy because you want to. That's a collective headscratch. There is talent there.

I'm not screaming from the top of my lungs. Disagreeing with you and the majority of the "we won back to back cups" crowd does not make me "hell bent on being right".

The main things I've defended all summer is Bonino was a legitimate top nine center who brought a lot to this team that would be difficult to replace. Is it impossible, no? But, when I hear Riley Sheahan can be had for a 4th and Wilson and easily replace Nick Bonino, I think it is okay to call out.

Having a different opinion then you is not screaming from the top of my lungs and saying that I believe we had a lackluster summer. I've got a Penguins tattoo. I'll watch every game. I've been to a game in both Cup Finals the last two years. I love hockey, it is okay to disagree with you and believe the team is in a rough spot. I went and saw the Pens in winter of 2015 in SoCal and focused on the good parts. I don't need to be called out as some bandwagon fan who is being outrageous because I disagree with you. It's frankly pathetically condescending.

I will gladly admit I'm wrong if we are #1 in the league or even our division in December with McKegg, Rowney and Reaves being fixtures of our bottom six.

 

[Gurglesons]

As has been talked to great nausium both here and the trade board. Bonino was less about the annual salary and more about the term, going forward we are going to have to resign in the next 2 off seasons Guentzel, Rust, Wilson, Sprong, and ZAR. Not to mention many other role playing players that are coming off of RFA deals. We also have the Hornqvist resigning in the offseason, signing Bonino to the term and salary he wanted was not good cap management.

And this trade deadline to be honest about picks, even if we had kept both Cully and Bones, we are going for a 3rd consecutive Stanley Cup, nothing in terms of the "piggy" bank of assets is off the table. To use a poker reference, shove it all in the center go all in, because this is the first chance in the salary cap era to make a true dynasty, and probably the last one we will see for some time. Personally I do not care if JR trades an entire year of picks 1-7 as long as it gets the Penguins a 3rd straight cup and etches them into the list of one of the greatest hockey teams of all time.

If you subscribe to that viewpoint signing Bonino makes even more sense.

He'd give us an all in stability in our bottom six center depth. Sprong and ZAR have yet to prove they can even play in the NHL. I'm not worrying about their contracts, because you can take them to arbritration.

 

[WayneSid9987]

As a group though, they have to dig their heads out of their collective ****** and start building some solid foundations. I know thats tough without Bones/Cullen but tough *******. Work it out or JR will be forced to wheel and deal.

No real threat of losing the speed idenitity yet. No one that plays that way has left. I think JR can look into things like bringing on a cheap vet that can help. 2 examples would be Dom Moore or maybe Zaripov.
Kuhn, Rowney, McKegg are extremely waveable players. Archie to an extent too. Reaves doesn't have to be cemented as the #12. Niemi doesn't have to be the backup.

Not saying that all of this has to be done immediately but just pointing out some things he CAN/could do in a short period of time without the 3C.

And uh yea, i still don't sign Bones to 4.1Mx4yrs.
You can get much better bang for your buck with someone else as long as you are patient enough to wait for that player.

 

[Gurglesons]

60% OZ starts is a defensive line now?

What are you using to get zone starts right now? NHL.com?

 

[ColePens]

I mean you just used an argument that you have a Pens tattoo. What does that even mean? It's a bad decision, and i'd tell that to anyone here who has a Pens tattoo. Hockey is a sport. The Penguins are a team that i'm a fan of. I'm not putting that on my body.

And you aren't even disagreeing with many people here. The thing you are disagreeing about is the jump off the bridge mentality you have when everyone else is saying calm down. We see the issues. We acknowledge the issues. JR/Sully have built trust. We are waiting to see where it goes. They've earned that.

 

[Peat]

Not that its ever going to happen, but McKegg does not look waivable. He's done a solid chunk of ice time every night, mostly deep in his own zone, all without looking out of place. Maybe I'd repent of those words on a watch through of last night's goals with someone showing me where he should have been standing, but right now the problem on defence looks to be, well, everywhere. He's quick, he's been good on the dot, he's shown some good skill... I'd like to see him get some time with a goal scorer on his line.

I certainly would not like to see him waived. I doubt he's our 3C for the play-offs, but he's probably going to be in the line-up if he keeps playing like that.

What are you using to get zone starts right now? NHL.com?

Yup.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

If you subscribe to that viewpoint signing Bonino makes even more sense.

He'd give us an all in stability in our bottom six center depth. Sprong and ZAR have yet to prove they can even play in the NHL. I'm not worrying about their contracts, because you can take them to arbritration.

Its more than just Sprong and ZAR, its guys that can prove they are reliable NHL players on championship teams that have contracts coming. 6 RFA contracts coming in two years, that's without adding Sprong and ZAR. That makes 8 RFA deals to be struck. You can not rely to keep the most valuable of those or get the best bang for your buck just kicking your feet up on the desk saying I can go to arbitration for 8 guys just because I wanted to keep a 3rd line center that wanted both max term and salary for his position. It makes NO sense. Then you factor in UFA deals that will be coming over the term Bonino wanted and it makes even less sense, to me at least, over the coarse of Boninos contract you have Schultz, Cole, Sheary, and Honqvist all coming up ontop of all of those RFA deals you have to do. Now I realize that some of them will ether be traded, let walk, etc. But the ones you do want, the ones you do want to keep in what every role from top to bottom you have to maintain cap flexibility in order to be able to work them into your budget. Signing Bonino would have taken away a lot of that flexibility. He just simply would have, and there is no way logically argue against that fact. Also you can not always count on trading him, what if there are no takers for that salary and the remaining amount of the term he wanted. Then you are forced to retain to move, which again, takes away cap flexibility and shortens you gap and likely not only costs you in this case Bonino, but signing another player because that retained space now doesn't allow you to sign him. The old adage of "one game at a time" only applies to there on ice, when it comes to structuring these teams and the players salaries on it, you can not look "year one at a time", you have to be looking at years, 3 or more years out.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Not that its ever going to happen, but McKegg does not look waivable. He's done a solid chunk of ice time every night, mostly deep in his own zone, all without looking out of place. Maybe I'd repent of those words on a watch through of last night's goals with someone showing me where he should have been standing, but right now the problem on defence looks to be, well, everywhere. He's quick, he's been good on the dot, he's shown some good skill... I'd like to see him get some time with a goal scorer on his line.

I certainly would not like to see him waived. I doubt he's our 3C for the play-offs, but he's probably going to be in the line-up if he keeps playing like that.



Yup.

At this present moment, obviously not, but if you have better C depth, he's easily a #13 to waivable on a Cup contender.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Extremely insightful!!

You just know that if Bonino had had a big night, especially in combination with the stinker the Pens had, yourself and the rest of the "OMG WE LET HIM GO" crowd would have brought it up as a reminder of JR's mistake.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean you just used an argument that you have a Pens tattoo. What does that even mean? It's a bad decision, and i'd tell that to anyone here who has a Pens tattoo. Hockey is a sport. The Penguins are a team that i'm a fan of. I'm not putting that on my body.

And you aren't even disagreeing with many people here. The thing you are disagreeing about is the jump off the bridge mentality you have when everyone else is saying calm down. We see the issues. We acknowledge the issues. JR/Sully have built trust. We are waiting to see where it goes. They've earned that.

I don't have a jump off the bridge mentality.

If you want to wait and see where it goes why do you post on a message board?

Once again, it is okay to disagree with you. It doesn't make me a lunatic ranting about how the end is near.

 

[Gurglesons]

Its more than just Sprong and ZAR, its guys that can prove they are reliable NHL players on championship teams that have contracts coming. 6 RFA contracts coming in two years, that's without adding Sprong and ZAR. That makes 8 RFA deals to be struck. You can not rely to keep the most valuable of those or get the best bang for your buck just kicking your feet up on the desk saying I can go to arbitration for 8 guys just because I wanted to keep a 3rd line center that wanted both max term and salary for his position. It makes NO sense. Then you factor in UFA deals that will be coming over the term Bonino wanted and it makes even less sense, to me at least, over the coarse of Boninos contract you have Schultz, Cole, Sheary, and Honqvist all coming up ontop of all of those RFA deals you have to do. Now I realize that some of them will ether be traded, let walk, etc. But the ones you do want, the ones you do want to keep in what every role from top to bottom you have to maintain cap flexibility in order to be able to work them into your budget. Signing Bonino would have taken away a lot of that flexibility. He just simply would have, and there is no way logically argue against that fact. Also you can not always count on trading him, what if there are no takers for that salary and the remaining amount of the term he wanted. Then you are forced to retain to move, which again, takes away cap flexibility and shortens you gap and likely not only costs you in this case Bonino, but signing another player because that retained space now doesn't allow you to sign him. The old adage of "one game at a time" only applies to there on ice, when it comes to structuring these teams and the players salaries on it, you can not look "year one at a time", you have to be looking at years, 3 or more years out.

I think those of us wanting to resign Bonino's main point has been we could have traded him in year three of the contract when Murray and Jake come up for raises.

Also, unless we somehow get a stud center prospect, we likely will be spending at least three million on a long term solution so the argument is kind of null.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Bonino was easily affordable for us and would still likely retain value in a trade in two years.

Shady and I understand the salary cap fine. We spent the money we had on a #6 defenseman and an enforcer.

Move Hagelin packaged with a pick.

The Salary Cap also involves taking advantage of your window. If we are 1st round exits the next two years, but we kept the youth, is that a logical move?

Why are we going to be knocked out in Round 1 the next two years? Do you honestly think Greg McKegg and Carter Rowney will be our 3C-4C into next season and beyond? What in JR's past leads you to believe this?

Are you incapable of being patient until JR pulls the trigger?

The fact we have 1 point after 2 games changes nothing. JR is waiting on something, whatever that may be. I still think it is Hornqvist's health but maybe he's waiting for something else to happen somewhere else in the league.

He is going to acquire a center. Hell, he has even said as much. Why not trust him?

I'd put in a claim on Pickard. Partly due to what Niemi looks like and partly because I just like him better than Niemi.

Pickard cleared waivers. Honestly, I like Jarry more than either Pickard and Niemi. I think it's only a matter of when Jarry joins Murray, not if.

At this present moment, obviously not, but if you have better C depth, he's easily a #13 to waivable on a Cup contender.

Maybe. But I don't think it's close between McKegg and Rowney as far as who is closer to No. 13 forward/waivable and who is closer to solid No. 4 center. I like McKegg much more.

 

[WayneSid9987]