The Roster Thread, Summer 2024

[Chainshot]

Well, he is still a good prospect who can be involved in a trade or just let him develop further. You just don't typically trade prospects like this for a 4C or a veteran defenseman like TVR.

Dowd is probably the best 4C out there.

 

[TehDoak]

The solution at the start of the (Adams) rebuild was never "trade picks because we have too many.

Draft picks are lottery tickets unless they are top 10 picks. You use them and pray that one of the kids you draft turns into a perennial allstar in 4-6 years. When you use a 14th overall pick on a guy like Rosen, it's a bit like buying a new car, the moment you make the selection(drive the car off the lot), it losses half it's value.

Even moving Rosen now, he doesn't have 14OA value, even though he has been developing nicely.

Accumulating trade value with the prospects you draft should never be the goal. Holding on to your prospects long enough to not make a Hagel sized mistake of giving up too soon should always be the goal. Yes, you are going to eat some value on prospects you hold too long as they bust, but that value is never enough to justify cutting bait too soon.

What Adams did wrong wasn't "not moving the extra picks", it was his failure to bring in decent vet mentors to insulate the kids and help them learn how to succeed in the NHL. The main focus should never have been "playoffs or bust for experience", it should always have been about learning how to play in this league to be successful, and Adams also had a coach that ignored all the details that turn average players into good players. Letting them all play undisciplined shinny hockey to "boost confidence"(and their point totals and contract asks) while neglecting defense and responsibility and ignoring the details of the game was always a stupid idea, yet here we are with half the fanbase believing it was a great idea.

Adams has done well with the patient approach to the farm and his picks and prospects. It is his coaching choices and roster supplementation that has been crap.

There is a bit of a disconnect here though.

Buffalo was never going to be a UFA destination. Especially in two of the critical years of the rebuild ('21 and '22). Yes, Buffalo could have overpaid short term, and I think in certain situations, it would have been justified.

The reality is, in order to gain the good vets needed, we likely would have had to spend some picks.

 

[Jacob582]

There is a bit of a disconnect here though.

Buffalo was never going to be a UFA destination. Especially in two of the critical years of the rebuild ('21 and '22). Yes, Buffalo could have overpaid short term, and I think in certain situations, it would have been justified.

The reality is, in order to gain the good vets needed, we likely would have had to spend some picks.

Vets could have been had on the waiver wire.

Martinook and N. Foligno were waived. They both wore an A for their team this season.

Just needed to use some of that wasted cap space.

 

[Irie]

There is a bit of a disconnect here though.

Buffalo was never going to be a UFA destination. Especially in two of the critical years of the rebuild ('21 and '22). Yes, Buffalo could have overpaid short term, and I think in certain situations, it would have been justified.

The reality is, in order to gain the good vets needed, we likely would have had to spend some picks.

The bolded part covers the concerns of your post.

The disconnect was Terry Pegula pushing Adams to spend below the cap (See Ben Bishop trade prior to the UFA period).

So yes. With an owner who was in full penny pinching mode, the correct path was maybe not a feasible solution. That doesn't mean that it wasn't the correct path. Nor does it mean that sacrificing the farm was the correct path either, just because it would have been an available option.

You are just substituting the failed solution chosen for another "tried and tested" failed solution, and defending one of them because it was available at the time and the correct course of action wasn't. A solution that has worked for dozens of teams not being available to the Sabres due to budget restrictions doesn't make the solution bad. It was still the right course of action. Unfortunately, T. Pegula does not have the team management knowledge to understand this and installing himself or his wife as team president to oversee the org while having COOs that are running both the NHL team and their NFL franchise in the mix is just a completely broken management structure.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Savoie is trickier to predict, but I don't think Kulich needs 2 more years in Rochester. If he doesn't make the sabres next year he should the year after. I think there's a decent chance at least one if not both of them are better than an otherwise league average 4th liner in 24-25; in that case I have no trouble with them on the team.

We can't have Kulich or Savoie on the 4th line. That's a recipe for another failed roster. If he's not in the top 6, keep him in Rochester. And there won't be space for him for several years, besides injury callups.

Might be a leak from RBA’s camp to pressure the team

I'm glad Pegula won't be used (again) to help another coach secure the bag.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Dowd is probably the best 4C out there.

The problem with most trade proposals is that teams don't want to give up good players for prospects. Washington is one of the few teams who seem to be courting more prospects who are close to being NHL-ready.

They have the goalie -- their re-tool can be somewhat quick if they do it right, like Dallas did. And Dallas shipped out everyone with value who didn't have trade protection.

In short, we need to make Dowd happen if he's available.

 

[Chainshot]

The only prospect that I'm really loath to move right now would be Wahlberg. I'm hoping the hints that he's staying in NA for next season are true, let him continue to adapt to the smaller ice and get his game going. I'm also curious if they look at him as a center at some point, like a Swedish Hintz if you will. In winger terms, there is some Tuch replacement to his game as much as anything else, if they bumble away Tuch on his next contract.

They have too many guys. We knew this, it's time to winnow the herd.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

The only prospect that I'm really loath to move right now would be Wahlberg. I'm hoping the hints that he's staying in NA for next season are true, let him continue to adapt to the smaller ice and get his game going. I'm also curious if they look at him as a center at some point, like a Swedish Hintz if you will. In winger terms, there is some Tuch replacement to his game as much as anything else, if they bumble away Tuch on his next contract.

They have too many guys. We knew this, it's time to winnow the herd.

I identified Wahlberg as the only untouchable when a fan of another team asked who's available a few pages back. I can't wait to see him in camp under Lindy.

 

[Sabreality]

any thoughts on that C(s) who KA said they tried to get at deadline, Sturm maybe? I thought maybe Bjugstad, but perhaps Yotes wanted to keep him around to insulate young C's, maybe that changes now, altho they certainly don't need more picks.

 

[TehDoak]

The bolded part covers the concerns of your post.

The disconnect was Terry Pegula pushing Adams to spend below the cap (See Ben Bishop trade prior to the UFA period).

So yes. With an owner who was in full penny pinching mode, the correct path was maybe not a feasible solution. That doesn't mean that it wasn't the correct path. Nor does it mean that sacrificing the farm was the correct path either, just because it would have been an available option.

You are just substituting the failed solution chosen for another "tried and tested" failed solution, and defending one of them because it was available at the time and the correct course of action wasn't. A solution that has worked for dozens of teams not being available to the Sabres due to budget restrictions doesn't make the solution bad. It was still the right course of action. Unfortunately, T. Pegula does not have the team management knowledge to understand this and installing himself or his wife as team president to oversee the org while having COOs that are running both the NHL team and their NFL franchise in the mix is just a completely broken management structure.

I'm not disagreeing with you on anything here. But, the reality is, the trade route is more readily available to us than the UFA route, even if we were willing to spend. If being a last place lotto team wasn't bad enough in the summer of 21, being a last place lotto team with a 1st time GM and who was purging veterans, and summer of 22 it was after a prolonged dispute where ownership wouldn't let their star player dictate his own healthcare and dragged his name through the mud.

For us to get quality available veterans, the most liquid of currency is always draft picks.

 

[Fjordy]

Dowd is probably the best 4C out there.

Then give them pick for him and some prospect less strong than Rosen.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

any thoughts on that C(s) who KA said they tried to get at deadline, Sturm maybe? I thought maybe Bjugstad, but perhaps Yotes wanted to keep him around to insulate young C's, maybe that changes now, altho they certainly don't need more picks.

I believe the belief held by many was that he went after Laughton.

 

[Chainshot]

I believe the belief held by many was that he went after Laughton.

Laughton and Cates came up mentioned in a couple places. I would have concerns if it's Laughton but I have an expectation that it's Laughton.

 

[Fjordy]

Laughton and Cates came up mentioned in a couple places. I would have concerns if it's Laughton but I have an expectation that it's Laughton.

Laughton bad?

Omg

 

[Chainshot]

Laughton bad?

His metrics this year were really bad on a team that was committed heavily to defense. He seems like a standup guy, good with the press and off-ice stuff, leadership things, just had a really bad year for the counting and public fancy stats.

 

[Fjordy]

His metrics this year were really bad on a team that was committed heavily to defense. He seems like a standup guy, good with the press and off-ice stuff, leadership things, just had a really bad year for the counting and public fancy stats.

Yes, I already looked, it doesn't look good. But we have a progressive analytics department, it’s unlikely they’ll let a player through with such poor metrics, and Kevin seems like a guy who listens to those he works with. Unless Lindy points to Laughton for some reason and he doesn't care about metrics.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Laughton and Cates came up mentioned in a couple places. I would have concerns if it's Laughton but I have an expectation that it's Laughton.

Is Cates a center long term? Adams must think so if he was a target.

One more that I forgot was Novak -- a few sources had Adams sniffing around the Preds for him. He obviously got locked up before getting a chance.

 

[Chainshot]

Just poking around a bit more on Laughton. His most frequent ES linemates this year were Hathaway and Deslauriers. Des has been an analytic black hole for, well, forever... But his defensive metrics are way, way, way worse than Deslauriers using the twins stats. And he spent a chunk of time with Atkinson too, also they got kicked in while together.

I wish it was simple to say it was some combination of things beyond his control, but it looks like he was part and parcel to it. And the ask was supposedly 1st round equivalent and Buffalo walked away from that (as they should). I still think they swing Jokiharju down there for him and there might be some sort of pick balancing on either side.

 

[Irie]

I'm not disagreeing with you on anything here. But, the reality is, the trade route is more readily available to us than the UFA route, even if we were willing to spend. If being a last place lotto team wasn't bad enough in the summer of 21, being a last place lotto team with a 1st time GM and who was purging veterans, and summer of 22 it was after a prolonged dispute where ownership wouldn't let their star player dictate his own healthcare and dragged his name through the mud.

For us to get quality available veterans, the most liquid of currency is always draft picks.

The debate is over the timing though.

Now, in 2024, trading picks for the help makes sense. In 2021, trading out a bunch of picks and prospects with an empty farm and at the beginning of the rebuild was a ridiculous notion, and that is what a certain poster was pounding his chest trying to convince the internet that his philosophy was right three and four years ago, without taking into account of the appropriate time windows to hold and the appropriate time to sell.

Had Adams had the foresight and the greenlight to spend the cap back in 2021, spending the cap and assets on topline guys to try to make the team competitive was a fools errand. Over spending to bring in mentoring vets on short term deals was what was needed. Adams spent the bare minimum to bring in AHL fodder to fill out the roster. Blame Adams or Terry or both of them, it doesn't really matter for this discussion, but that is where the rebuild went wrong.

 

[PatLaFontaineASMR]

I dont know if Power ever turns into more than what he is.

Yea once a player hits 21 years old that's pretty much it. He is what he is at this point.

 

[Chainshot]

Is Cates a center long term? Adams must think so if he was a target.

One more that I forgot was Novak -- a few sources had Adams sniffing around the Preds for him. He obviously got locked up before getting a chance.

I don't know if they would think Cates is or isn't. I know he had some quiet Selke support a few years ago and some of that was at center but that's just thin stuff from casual observation. He was on the wing a chunk this year and had some success in the middle of Konecny and Farabee last year. *shrug*

 

[Fjordy]

One of these guys please

 

[Chainshot]

Yea once a player hits 21 years old that's pretty much it. He is what he is at this point.

 

[Chainshot]

One of these guys please

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I don't see Haula waiving to go somewhere new. He's bounced around a lot and the time to get him was probably when Vegas needed to move him after his knee injury. He and Tuch are close, I just don't see it being enough to get him to consider it let alone the Devils willingly taking away a mid-liner to help a conference rival. I beat that horse for years and it's now long since passed glue.

Coleman I would love. He's got that ignition in his game. Hell, I wouldn't mind if they took Goodrow from the Rangers too and put part of the band back together with a heavy vet line of their own. Sign Carrier and then just have a menace out there.

 

[Fly Boy]

All on board with Coleman. I had an idea a few weeks ago and magically saw someone on the Flames board post that exact idea. They talked about using Coleman to trade up from 29 into the high teens (I think they were talking about a team at 12 or 13 idr). So 11 for Coleman+29. You could then use 29 for a 3C like N. Roy or whoever. Leaves Joker to recoup picks and Rosen and other 2024, 2025 picks to make a deal for a potential top 4RD.

Dowd is also someone I thought about a week or so ago. Really interested in him, but I think Adams has Krebs penciled in for 4C unfortunately.