Prospect Info: The Prospect Thread

[Melvin]

Was there absolute outrage at the time bout picking JV....?.....FYI...Nylander was my 1st choice at the time,but I wasn't outraged at the JV pick.

There wasn't as much outrage because it was so telegraphed. People had pretty much resigned themselves to the inevitability of it happening. It wasn't popular hut it wasn't surprising.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

In what way were the Leafs “uncertain” about taking Nylander?

And teams that passed on Nylander for higher ranked players like Bennett, Reinhart, MDC, Draisaitl, and Ekblad can be understood. Those players were widely regarded as better and/or safer picks than Nylander and Ehlers. Tons of teams passed on Pastrnak too but I don’t think it’s fair to say all 24 made a bad decision based on the info available at the time.

Vancouver and Carolina are the only teams that took players that were not widely ranked ahead of Nylander, making their culpability much greater.

I've posted the draft footage from the 2014 draft on here before...There was quite the discussion at the Leafs table on who the Leafs were going to take with that #8..I'm speculating Nylander or Ritchie..They obviously made the right choice.

Nylander was no slam dunk at the draft..His offensive game was lights out,but he couldn't play a lick of defence..Also,there was a question of whether he could physically withstand the pro game.

The Canucks had drafted several soft,skilled forwards under Gillis in the previous 1st rounds...I can see the reasoning for trying something different.

 

[M2Beezy]

In what way were the Leafs “uncertain” about taking Nylander?

And teams that passed on Nylander for higher ranked players like Bennett, Reinhart, MDC, Draisaitl, and Ekblad can be understood. Those players were widely regarded as better and/or safer picks than Nylander and Ehlers. Tons of teams passed on Pastrnak too but I don’t think it’s fair to say all 24 made a bad decision based on the info available at the time.

Vancouver and Carolina are the only teams that took players that were not widely ranked ahead of Nylander, making their culpability much greater.

I wish i could write as clear as this. Solid post that should be pinned to this forum for making so clear about the 2014 draft. If Im allowed to like posts again i will like this post

 

[ginner classic]

I've posted the draft footage from the 2014 draft on here before...There was quite the discussion at the Leafs table on who the Leafs were going to take with that #8..I'm speculating Nylander or Ritchie..They obviously made the right choice.

Nylander was no slam dunk at the draft..His offensive game was lights out,but he couldn't play a lick of defence..Also,there was a question of whether he could physically withstand the pro game.

The Canucks had drafted several soft,skilled forwards under Gillis in the previous 1st rounds...I can see the reasoning for trying something different.

Except it has been well documented that our actual scouts wanted Nylander or Ehlers and that Benning drafted by need. There is no need for speculative or revisionist history. Virtanen was a shite pick at the time and still is. Give it up.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Except it has been well documented that our actual scouts wanted Nylander or Ehlers and that Benning drafted by need. There is no need for speculative or revisionist history. Virtanen was a ****e pick at the time and still is. Give it up.

It is known that Gradin was high on Nylander ..but there must have been others (Crawford?) that were high on JV..Can you give me a source /link that states that Benning outright rejected his scouts advice.

Was JV a bad pick at the time?..I don't recall too many complaints.

 

[vancityluongo]

Was JV a bad pick at the time?..I don't recall too many complaints.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/2014-mock-draft-by-team-board-vote.1653661/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/vancouver-canucks-draft-jake-virtanen-the-rifleman.1697779/
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/2014-nhl-entry-draft-part-x.1691275/

The polls are gone so the illustrative effect is significantly weaker, but most wanted Ehlers/Nylander/Ritchie. Things were still quite optimistic around here, so most people just thought that while he wasn't their first choice, he was a reasonable pick there.

 

[Reasoned Opinion]

Picking Virtanen instead of Ehlers or Nylander was a big blunder st the time. Period.

No it wasn't as he was ranked by most as higher than both. He is emerging and has the potential still to be a far more important player in playoff situations than either. Some patience is required with these big guys. That is something Canuck nation should have figured out a few times.

 

[Reasoned Opinion]

What are the criteria for a player being considered a prospect? By any realistic standard, three years is at least halfway to a full turnover in your prospect pool. Probably more than halfway for the purposes of something like this, because a 23 year old who isn’t in the NHL isn’t likely to be tipping the scales very hard. Benning is heading toward his 5th draft. How many Gillis picks/acquisitions are still prospect aged?

Depends on the player. Have a peek at Blake Wheeler's career. Didn't see NHL until 22. Didn't really blossom until 26. Bertuzzi was 25 before he scored 25 goals.

Give kids a good chance to have their 22nd or 23rd birthdays before writing them off. Some players simply don't develop as fast. Leipsic is a rookie but not 18 - does that make him a non-prospect at the start of this, his rookie year? Of course not.

 

[RobertKron]

Depends on the player. Have a peek at Blake Wheeler's career. Didn't see NHL until 22. Didn't really blossom until 26. Bertuzzi was 25 before he scored 25 goals.

Give kids a good chance to have their 22nd or 23rd birthdays before writing them off. Some players simply don't develop as fast. Leipsic is a rookie but not 18 - does that make him a non-prospect at the start of this, his rookie year? Of course not.

Do you consider Archibald a prospect?

Also, that’s not the criteria for a prospect for the list you were discussing.

 

[Hodgy]

No it wasn't as he was ranked by most as higher than both. He is emerging and has the potential still to be a far more important player in playoff situations than either. Some patience is required with these big guys. That is something Canuck nation should have figured out a few times.

This has already need discussed, ad nauseum, but I believe only one major source had him ranked before both. So your statement is demonstrably false.

As for the rest of your post, Virtanen has been tracking extremely poorly since been drafted, at basically every level. Terrible draft plus one. Gifted an NHL spot in draft plus two, despite not earning it in damp. Abysmal world juniors. Terrible in the AHL. Sure, he has had some good moments, but by and large he’s been brutal since being drafted.

Can you provide some “big guys” that tracked as poorly as Virtanen has but still panned out.

Reasoned Opinion? LOL

 

[Hodgy]

Depends on the player. Have a peek at Blake Wheeler's career. Didn't see NHL until 22. Didn't really blossom until 26. Bertuzzi was 25 before he scored 25 goals.

Give kids a good chance to have their 22nd or 23rd birthdays before writing them off. Some players simply don't develop as fast. Leipsic is a rookie but not 18 - does that make him a non-prospect at the start of this, his rookie year? Of course not.

Bertuzzi is a terrible comparable. He progressed in his draft plus one, two and three years, with last of which being a 40 point pace NHL rookie season.

Wheeler is a bit harder to compare since he went the NCAA route, but he showed some progression in college and scored 45 points in his NHL rookie season. Again, not a good comparable.

 

[Southern_Canuck]

Sat March 10

Europe

Linkoping 1 Vaxjo 3
Pettersson 1 goal (24th), +1

AHL

Utica 0 Springfield 4
Bachman 29 saves on 33 shots

ECHL

Indy 4 Kalamazoo 3 (OT)
Cederholm 0 points, +1
Moynihan 1 goal (13th), even
Irving 0 points, -1
Stewart 0 points, +1
Garteig was the back-up

NCAA

Michigan 2 Ohio State 3 (OT)
Lockwood out with injury

Massachusetts 2 Northeastern 7
Gaudette 1 goal (30th), 1 assist, +1

OHL

Windsor 3 Erie 4 (OT)
DiPietro 24 saves on 28 shots

Saginaw 0 Owen Sound 5
McKenzie 1 goal (17th), +3
Gadjovich 1 assist, +3

WHL

Calgary 3 Prince Albert 4 (OT)
Stukel 1 assist, +1

Kamloops 0 Kelowna 4
Lind 1 assist, +1

S_C

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Welcome back Southern_Canuck!

 

[M2Beezy]

Great to have you back Southern Canuck!

Thanks for doing these daily prospect updates!

 

[Melvin]

Just because a few people were asking about this a few days ago. I managed to use this "twitter" to ask Ryan for confirmation...

 

[Bad Goalie]

So Candella

Just because a few people were asking about this a few days ago. I managed to use this "twitter" to ask Ryan for confirmation...

So the 3 guys currently on the bubble are Brassard, Candella, and Stukel?
June 1 or free agents.

 

[Melvin]

So Candella


So the 3 guys currently on the bubble are Brassard, Candella, and Stukel?
June 1 or free agents.

Candella, Stukel and McKenzie

 

[Bad Goalie]

Candella, Stukel and McKenzie

Right! Thanx.

I actually had those 3 written down after I researched and then posted to confirm and wrote Brassard.

????? Brain Farts! They may kill more geriatrics than heart attacks. They at least become the ammo for the kids to put them in assisted living. LOL

What are the chances that Benning feels any of the 3 are worth committing a spot(s) in his 50?

 

[Reasoned Opinion]

Bertuzzi is a terrible comparable. He progressed in his draft plus one, two and three years, with last of which being a 40 point pace NHL rookie season.

Wheeler is a bit harder to compare since he went the NCAA route, but he showed some progression in college and scored 45 points in his NHL rookie season. Again, not a good comparable.

It is not all about points. The point made was that people cannot be prospects at 22 or 23 and I could not disagree more and gave you but two quick examples off top of my head of players who didn't even really get going until 25. Sedins are other examples. There are many such examples. Writing someone off before 22/23 seems a very arbitrary and, based upon history, poor way to define a player's ceiling.

 

[Reasoned Opinion]

This has already need discussed, ad nauseum, but I believe only one major source had him ranked before both. So your statement is demonstrably false.

As for the rest of your post, Virtanen has been tracking extremely poorly since been drafted, at basically every level. Terrible draft plus one. Gifted an NHL spot in draft plus two, despite not earning it in damp. Abysmal world juniors. Terrible in the AHL. Sure, he has had some good moments, but by and large he’s been brutal since being drafted.

Can you provide some “big guys” that tracked as poorly as Virtanen has but still panned out.

Reasoned Opinion? LOL

Looking forward to LOL right back at you over next few seasons. By 23-24, this kid will be a core piece of a very strong Vancouver squad. The examples used were just fine. You track only on points, I get that from some who don't know the game, but look at things like he is leading his team's forwards in hits per game (and very high in NHL in terms of forwards in hits/minutes), has great TA/GA ratio and his per 60 production is actually above many players people like to say are having "great" seasons. Give this kid another year of solid development and some PP time and you have a strong, hard to play against forward who puts up sufficient offence but is the piece-of-work other teams dread playing against. A playoff beast in the making.

 

[Reasoned Opinion]

Do you consider Archibald a prospect?

Also, that’s not the criteria for a prospect for the list you were discussing.

Archibald is a strange one for sure - pretty old in the spectrum but I don't consider him a veteran as he is technically (not officially I believe) an NHL rookie and very much a suspect as much as anything. I just don't see how an age should be the discriminator. Goalies and Dmen - MOST often you don't know what you really have until they are 23-25 so before that they are presumably still able to be a prospect. Right?

 

[Addison Rae]

No it wasn't as he was ranked by most as higher than both. He is emerging and has the potential still to be a far more important player in playoff situations than either. Some patience is required with these big guys. That is something Canuck nation should have figured out a few times.

Ah the good old “BeTteR IN The pLayOFfS CUZ HEs BiGgEr ANd CANadian”

Have you actually look s at Virtanen’s playoff numbers they’re awful and he was absolutely awful at the world juniors.

I like Virtanen but this is not a debate, Ehlers and Nylander are CLEARLY ahead. Just stop trying to make this even a discussion it’s never going to be one.

 

[tyhee]

Right! Thanx.

I actually had those 3 written down after I researched and then posted to confirm and wrote Brassard.

????? Brain Farts! They may kill more geriatrics than heart attacks. They at least become the ammo for the kids to put them in assisted living. LOL

What are the chances that Benning feels any of the 3 are worth committing a spot(s) in his 50?

Maybe I'm missing something as I thought the rights to Cole Candella, Brett McKenzie, Jakob Stukel and Rodrigo Abols (who was drafted from the Portland Winterhawks) expire this summer.

I see a small chance they'll offer Candella a contract, a smaller chance yet for Abols (who was at zero chance not long ago but has been coming on lately after a slow start in the Allsvenskan) and next to no chance for the other two, if indeed it is decision time for all four.

 

[Bad Goalie]

Maybe I'm missing something as I thought the rights to Cole Candella, Brett McKenzie, Jakob Stukel and Rodrigo Abols (who was drafted from the Portland Winterhawks) expire this summer.

I see a small chance they'll offer Candella a contract, a smaller chance yet for Abols (who was at zero chance not long ago but has been coming on lately after a slow start in the Allsvenskan) and next to no chance for the other two, if indeed it is decision time for all four.

According to the Vancouver Canucks reserve list on CapFriendly, Abols is not listed. The other 3 have to be signed by June 1, 2018.

You'll have to get the skinny on Abols from "But Gillis". I read, in this thread I believe, that he was not given a "Bona Fide offer" so he is now a free agent. He is listed as inactive on CapFriendly.

 

[CanaFan]

It is not all about points. The point made was that people cannot be prospects at 22 or 23 and I could not disagree more and gave you but two quick examples off top of my head of players who didn't even really get going until 25. Sedins are other examples. There are many such examples. Writing someone off before 22/23 seems a very arbitrary and, based upon history, poor way to define a player's ceiling.

Except everything between Virtanen’s draft season (2013-14) and today has been far below the pace Todd Bertuzzi developed at offensively. The gap is so large that you can’t even talk about the players in any sort of analogous way. You may as well talk about Brendan Gaunce and Tyler Seguin while you’re at it.

Yes Virtanen may provide some utility off the puck in terms hits, zone pressure, and the like but you’d be better off talking about Steve Ott’s development path than Bertuzzis.