OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: World Cup N'at

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Brandinho

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I think they draft better than they develop. Coates and Wheaton never developed like they could have and some of that is on the team.

Both of those guys were undone by injuries, though. Coates had a mangled hand and chronic hamstring issues and Wheaton's career was derailed by that season ending injury. Of the two, Wheaton's development was fine IMO. Coates was the real disappointment, but you're obviously not going to hit on everyone.
 

Brandinho

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There have been quite a few games where for long stretches the only thing working was Bell being a one man show. He's by far the best back in the game. I wouldn't sell him short.

As far as longevity concerns, I think he'll be good into 30s because of his build and ability to BHOB. When the quickness and speed go, he'll still be very good.

That's a good point that shouldn't be overlooked. Ben took a long time last season before he looked like Ben. First Baltimore and KC stand out as two games that we probably don't win without superhuman performances from Bell.
 

Brandinho

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I can't fathom why they would pay Bell almost 6m more per season than the next highest paid back.

Steelers avg the same amount of points without Bell, as they did with him.

I also keep thinking about how productive a 31 year old Williams was in this offense, only making two million per.

It seems like a really bad per dollar investment.

Well, Bell is undoubtedly $6m better than Devonta Freeman so I'm not sure that's the strongest argument. A lot of the best RBs in the NFL right now are still on their rookie deals. Todd Gurley, for example, is going to earn a hell of a lot more than $8m a year when he negotiates his next contract.

Ideally, I think a setup like what New Orleans has is the optimal way to structure your running game and it's a system that is, theoretically, replicable. Guys like Ingram will always be available around where we pick, but the wrench in the plan is finding a player like Kamara. The Saints just got stupidly lucky with that, our attempt at something similar netted us Dri Archer.
 

Shockmaster

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Mitchell may stay around simply because he is a "Mike Tomlin favorite." :shakehead

Craig Adams in cleats.
 
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Mr Jiggyfly

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Well, Bell is undoubtedly $6m better than Devonta Freeman so I'm not sure that's the strongest argument. A lot of the best RBs in the NFL right now are still on their rookie deals. Todd Gurley, for example, is going to earn a hell of a lot more than $8m a year when he negotiates his next contract.

Ideally, I think a setup like what New Orleans has is the optimal way to structure your running game and it's a system that is, theoretically, replicable. Guys like Ingram will always be available around where we pick, but the wrench in the plan is finding a player like Kamara. The Saints just got stupidly lucky with that, our attempt at something similar netted us Dri Archer.

I don't think Bell is almost twice the back Freeman is, at all.

Bell had something like 160 more touches because the offense is designed to get him the ball to a ridiculous degree. I'm sure Freeman could put up similar numbers if Quinn had the utter disregard for his health as Tomlin does for Bell.

A back can't sustain the rate of touches Bell has had IMHO, over the long term. The Steelers are going to be paying stupid money for Tomlin's sins with Bell, and have a broken down back in a couple years.

Or if Tomlin smartens up, and he only gets 250-300 total touches, is he still worth 14m?

Common sense says if your offense still puts up almost identical points with or without Bell, why would you over pay for him?
 
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Andy99

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Mitchell may stay around simply because he is a "Mike Tomlin favorite." :shakehead

Craig Adams in cleats.


This is an apt analogy...I will be so pissed if that worthless piece of **** who basically can't run anymore is seeing the field again for the Steelers...
 

Brandinho

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I don't think Bell is almost twice the back Freeman is, at all.

Bell had something like 160 more touches because the offense is designed to get him the ball to a ridiculous degree. I'm sure Freeman could put up similar numbers if Quinn had the utter disregard for his health as Tomlin does for Bell.

A back can't sustain the rate of touches Bell has had IMHO, over the long term. The Steelers are going to be paying stupid money for Tomlin's sins with Bell, and have a broken down back in a couple years.

Or if Tomlin smartens up, and he only gets 250-300 total touches, is he still worth 14m?

Common sense says if your offense still puts up almost identical points with or without Bell, why would you over pay for him?

Not to mention he is the kind of me first guy they should look to shed... his tweets today show his character once again. He's a big part of the me first culture in that locker room and something has to give if they want to win another SB in the BR era.

I'm not necessarily advocating for Bell to get that kind of extension. It's something that I feel very conflicted about because there are legitimate reasons to extend and to let him walk. Right now, I'm in the franchise tag camp more than any other. We have a ~3 year window and we can keep Bell for 2 of those years via the tag (even though it's probably not a good idea from a fiscal standpoint to tag him a third time).

Having said that, I completely disagree that Devonta Freeman can do what Bell can. While the jury is out with regard to the long term impact of Bell's usage, at least he has the ability to handle that kind of workload for now. Freeman is a complimentary back whose performance isn't even appreciably better than Coleman's. Freeman has a study frame and is more capable of running inside than most smaller backs, but it's hardly a strength. He's useful in the passing game, but nowhere near the asset that Bell is.

As for the culture issue, while that may be a valid point, it's rendered moot because players can only influence the culture whereas the coach is ultimately responsible. If Tomlin has fostered that kind of culture, removing a player or two isn't going to change anything.
 

DanielPlainview

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Both of those guys were undone by injuries, though. Coates had a mangled hand and chronic hamstring issues and Wheaton's career was derailed by that season ending injury. Of the two, Wheaton's development was fine IMO. Coates was the real disappointment, but you're obviously not going to hit on everyone.

In the current team, I just can't give the Steelers much credit for developing their WRs. There's not much evidence for it. Brown is a Jerry Rice-esque perfectionist, Martavis is a physical freak, and JuJu has been excellent since day one (as were Mike Wallace and Santonio Holmes - even Eli Rogers had a solid rookie season but developed issues catching the ball). I think think the success stories are largely a result of their extraordinary ability to find WR talent in the middle rounds. Any player that has come in with major flaws has fallen through.

Coates had issues with catching coming out of college before his injuries. It was up to the team to fix it and they couldn't after two years. He was basically Limas Sweed redux.

Wheaton regressed from his rookie season. The injuries just compounded the issue.
 

Brandinho

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In the current team, I just can't give the Steelers much credit for developing their WRs. There's not much evidence for it. Brown is a Jerry Rice-esque perfectionist, Martavis is a physical freak, and JuJu has been excellent since day one (as were Mike Wallace and Santonio Holmes - even Eli Rogers had a solid rookie season but developed issues catching the ball). I think think the success stories are largely a result of their extraordinary ability to find WR talent in the middle rounds. Any player that has come in with major flaws has fallen through.

Coates had issues with catching coming out of college before his injuries. It was up to the team to fix it and they couldn't after two years. He was basically Limas Sweed redux.

Wheaton regressed from his rookie season. The injuries just compounded the issue.

Coates had issues with catching, yeah, but how are you ever going to fix that when the dude's hand is mangled? Richard Mann was the best WR coach in the league, but you'd need Jesus to fix that kind of problem. A psychologist might have helped as well, given the way that the injury affected him mentally.

I really think you're off base with Wheaton. I'm going to assume you're not actually referring to his rookie season when you talk about regression, but I don't recall a decline from his second to third seasons. The stats sure as hell don't support that argument. The eye test is subjective, but I was satisfied with his performance in both of his full seasons. For a third round pick, we got at least as much as one could reasonably expect out of him.
 
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Mr Jiggyfly

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I'm not necessarily advocating for Bell to get that kind of extension. It's something that I feel very conflicted about because there are legitimate reasons to extend and to let him walk. Right now, I'm in the franchise tag camp more than any other. We have a ~3 year window and we can keep Bell for 2 of those years via the tag (even though it's probably not a good idea from a fiscal standpoint to tag him a third time).

Having said that, I completely disagree that Devonta Freeman can do what Bell can. While the jury is out with regard to the long term impact of Bell's usage, at least he has the ability to handle that kind of workload for now. Freeman is a complimentary back whose performance isn't even appreciably better than Coleman's. Freeman has a study frame and is more capable of running inside than most smaller backs, but it's hardly a strength. He's useful in the passing game, but nowhere near the asset that Bell is.

As for the culture issue, while that may be a valid point, it's rendered moot because players can only influence the culture whereas the coach is ultimately responsible. If Tomlin has fostered that kind of culture, removing a player or two isn't going to change anything.

Freeman is a pretty tough inside runner and he had an off year last season, but the two years prior he put up over 1k yards rushing and had 54 and 73 rcpts. So he can most certainly be almost as good a threat in the air as Bell. It’s just a matter of att and targets, because Bell is featured more.

We could debate on and on if Freeman could hold up to more touches, but neither of us really know TBTH.

I think we saw with Williams in for Bell, there wasn’t a noticeable drop off at all, and Freeman is certainly better than a 31 year old Williams.
 

AverageJoeFan

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None of that is an indication he’d take less from another team. You’re really reaching with this. Bell wants $14.5-$15 million per year. Period.
Yeah he is gonna be franchised today I think.

On a very side note, Pitt basketball looks like it is going to finish with a record comparably bad to 1976-77. 40 year low water mark. Whew..tough for fans.
 

TimmyD

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I could easily see Bell eventually playing this year on the tag and then signing with Miami in the off-season because they will be incredibly stupid and offer him$16 million a year. They always go out and stupidly overspend for a guy in free agency
 

The Old Master

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I could easily see Bell eventually playing this year on the tag and then signing with Miami in the off-season because they will be incredibly stupid and offer him$16 million a year. They always go out and stupidly overspend for a guy in free agency
i don't think they ever had him in their long time plans....it seems to be a use him as much as you can while we have him....and when we can't afford him or he can no longer perform at a high level, move on.
 

Dick Sledge

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I wouldn't mind the 2 second rounders at the top of the round that Cleveland has for Bell.
 
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KIRK

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I wouldn't mind the 2 second rounders at the top of the round that Cleveland has for Bell.

Pretty steep price, and I'm not sure I'd rush to deal him in division, but that price might do the trick.

The Jets have #37 and #49 and a ton of cap space.

Tampa has a ton of cap space, and the bloom is off the Doug Martin rose.

Indy and SF have a ton of space and definitely could use someone like Bell.

I still wish, as noted to @Mr Jiggyfly earlier, that there was a Portis for Bailey type of deal out there, where we could flip Bell for an impact player at DB or LB.

I might also be okay getting back, say, a pretty good and good cost ILB and a good 2nd.
 

KIRK

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Unless it's Bell for Ramsey the Steelers lose that trade.

You mean fantasy football style? Sure.

But, how much cap space are you getting, for example? There are real world cap implications when you deal players . . .
 

PensandCaps

Beddy Tlueger
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Bell is the best player I've ever seen. The way he effortlessly makes people miss is amazing. Keep him at all costs.
 
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