OT: The Pittsburgher Thread: Congrats to KC, but Kelce was the real winner winning Swift

[Peat]

Yeah I think players have time and time again proven that they aren’t great judges of talent. Just look at some of top 100 lists as voted by players and you’ll see some real head scratchers.

I don’t doubt that they’ve made their opinion known on the QB situation internally but I wonder if this was a case of Tomlin/Khan coming to them and being like “Hey we want to bring in Wilson, do you mind talking to him and making a pitch on why he should come to Pittsburgh?”

I wondered that so I checked and this report makes it sound like Heyward was pushing for him rather than just agreeing to sell the Steelers to Wilson.

I think this all goes back to Tomlin. We've had this discussion a ton of times, but Tomlin's hands-off style worked great when they had that established group of leaders that he inherited from the Cowher Steelers teams. But as those guys retired, the new guys just didn't step into their spots to take those leadership roles, and I think the locker room greatly declined due to it.

It is Tomlin's job to step in at that point, which is why the failure of leadership is ultimately on him, but I think it's understandable considering what he was when he first came in as the coach.

Yup.

Which is part of why I want him gone. The job in front of him isn't a job he's done successfully and so far he doesn't seem to be getting to grips with it. Maybe he's just learned and the more disciplinarian coaching staff will be joined by less control over the offence, and maybe having a veteran QB will give him breathing space to get to grips to with the challenge of rebuilding a team... but I'm not confident and I don't think his first effort earned the benefit of the doubt.

 

[MrBrightside]

I think this all goes back to Tomlin. We've had this discussion a ton of times, but Tomlin's hands-off style worked great when they had that established group of leaders that he inherited from the Cowher Steelers teams. But as those guys retired, the new guys just didn't step into their spots to take those leadership roles, and I think the locker room greatly declined due to it.

It is Tomlin's job to step in at that point, which is why the failure of leadership is ultimately on him, but I think it's understandable considering what he was when he first came in as the coach.

I think this is placing way too much value on leadership. The reason they had good leadership in the 2005-2012 era is they were a veteran team who was winning and had a franchise QB and the best defense in the NFL, but even then Cedric Wilson and James Harrison were getting arrested and Ben was wrecking his motorcycle and getting suspended for maybe probably kind of rape and being a total douchebag all over town and Hines Ward was getting DUI's...a lot of shit gets overlooked and shrugged off when you have elite talent.

The real way Tomlin blew it with Pickett was having incompetent assistants on offense. Head coaches can't be involved at the level that young players need and having a clown like Matt Canada be the real voice in Pickett's head is where things really went wrong.

 

[WickedWrister]

Wait, are people actually taking issue with Cam, TJ, and Minkah talking to Russ?

Players recruiting other players is standard practice throughout the league. Seems completely normal to want to learn more about your employer, and vice versa.

 

[T1K]

Aiyuk and Pickens would be outrageous.

It really seems like the Steelers are pushing all their chips in the middle and are going for it this year.

If we are able to acquire BA while keeping Pickens, there aren’t any excuses for Tomlin, Arthur Smith, or the QBs — assuming we’re spending our remaining premium draft picks on the o-line.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think this is placing way too much value on leadership. The reason they had good leadership in the 2005-2012 era is they were a veteran team who was winning and had a franchise QB and the best defense in the NFL, but even then Cedric Wilson and James Harrison were getting arrested and Ben was wrecking his motorcycle and getting suspended for maybe probably kind of rape and being a total douchebag all over town and Hines Ward was getting DUI's...a lot of shit gets overlooked and shrugged off when you have elite talent.

The real way Tomlin blew it with Pickett was having incompetent assistants on offense. Head coaches can't be involved at the level that young players need and having a clown like Matt Canada be the real voice in Pickett's head is where things really went wrong.

I think we're talking about different things if we're bringing up off-field stuff. I wasn't really looking at it from that POV, I'm looking at it from the locker room POV and drama on the field and within the team.

Those Steelers teams had bigger pieces of shit then than they do now, since Ben, Harrison and Ward were all known to be scumbags off the field. But they had their lockerroom on lockdown, to the point where I genuinely don't remember any sort of Pickens/AB style drama in the lockerroom and on the field from those teams. It probably happened, I just don't remember it.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Lol Aiyuk really just tweeted this…

Im going to be hurt arent i

 

[xlm34]

It really seems like the Steelers are pushing all their chips in the middle and are going for it this year.

If we are able to acquire BA while keeping Pickens, there aren’t any excuses for Tomlin, Arthur Smith, or the QBs — assuming we’re spending our remaining premium draft picks on the o-line.

Definitely seems like they’re going to try to take advantage of having a cheap QB room. Wouldn’t surprise me if 2024/2025 was the year they had circled to try to be legitimate contenders after drafting Pickett with the assumption that’d Pickett would be cheap and at least solid.

Now they’re just subbing in Wilson and are continuing on with that plan.

 

[T1K]

Definitely seems like they’re going to try to take advantage of having a cheap QB room. Wouldn’t surprise me if 2024/2025 was the year they had circled to try to be legitimate contenders after drafting Pickett with the assumption that’d Pickett would be cheap and at least solid.

Now they’re just subbing in Wilson and are continuing on with that plan.

It’s a good approach. The defense isn’t getting any younger and I think they’re capable of a deep run if the offense does their part.

What a masterclass by Khan to give us a chance at being competitive.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah I think if you can get Aiyuk without trading your 1st, it's a no brainer to do it. They're likely going to be using a 2nd on a WR if they don't make any trades, so just do like a 2nd and 3rd for Aiyuk and I think you're sitting in a great spot.

My only concern with doing that is trading the 2nd means you realistically can't get both a RT and C from the draft. I think the only chance you'd have at getting both is a RT in round 1 and a C in round 2, but I think any C worthwhile will be gone by the 3rd round.

Well, my other concern is Pickens, but that's less important than filling out the OL.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I asked this months ago repeatedly and never got an answer so I'll try again. What plus QB traits has Pickett shown? He has a good enough arm (if he sets his feet and actually stands in the pocket, which he rarely does) and is athletic enough. He has not a single damn trait that is a plus for an NFL QB. To succeed he was going to have to be able to read defenses and throw with anticipation and accuracy. He does none of that. Even his accuracy was overrated. Pickett has nothing special about him.

Yup I've been saying this exact thing for months. What trait has KP ever shown that you say "wow"?
You can be very limited athletically OR limited with your processing speed OR be a poor leader as a QB.

KP is 3 for 3 in that regard. He's just not going to be a starting NFL QB in this league. Can you teach a QB how to read a defense for such an older person? Should be natural at this point. His zenith is backup QB. Would not be surprised to see him out of the league within 3 years. Kudos though for the team to move on from him

 

[MrBrightside]

Yeah I think if you can get Aiyuk without trading your 1st, it's a no brainer to do it. They're likely going to be using a 2nd on a WR if they don't make any trades, so just do like a 2nd and 3rd for Aiyuk and I think you're sitting in a great spot.

My only concern with doing that is trading the 2nd means you realistically can't get both a RT and C from the draft. I think the only chance you'd have at getting both is a RT in round 1 and a C in round 2, but I think any C worthwhile will be gone by the 3rd round.

Well, my other concern is Pickens, but that's less important than filling out the OL.

I'd do it too, but the reason is that after 2024 you're paying Aiyuk in the $25-30M range and I'm not sure that's going to work well with the roster construction. Very real chance that's a one-year flyer if you make that trade.

 

[JTG]

It really seems like the Steelers are pushing all their chips in the middle and are going for it this year.

If we are able to acquire BA while keeping Pickens, there aren’t any excuses for Tomlin, Arthur Smith, or the QBs — assuming we’re spending our remaining premium draft picks on the o-line.

The voices have clearly reached the level they needed to. Why complain? This is why, in my opinion.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Yeah I think if you can get Aiyuk without trading your 1st, it's a no brainer to do it. They're likely going to be using a 2nd on a WR if they don't make any trades, so just do like a 2nd and 3rd for Aiyuk and I think you're sitting in a great spot.

My only concern with doing that is trading the 2nd means you realistically can't get both a RT and C from the draft. I think the only chance you'd have at getting both is a RT in round 1 and a C in round 2, but I think any C worthwhile will be gone by the 3rd round.

Yeah in that scenario I think you take a center in RD1 and tackle in RD3 and hope for the best.

There's always a trade-back but I'm not sure you can both drop back far enough and pick up a high enough pick later to still get "both" high in the draft. I mean, we could sit here and finagle a situation but that's a lot of moving parts.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'd do it too, but the reason is that after 2024 you're paying Aiyuk in the $25-30M range and I'm not sure that's going to work well with the roster construction. Very real chance that's a one-year flyer if you make that trade.

I think you re-sign him and eventually just plan on letting Pickens walk after his 4th year. Or trade Pickens after next year and just have Aiyuk and Pickens for only 1 year.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I think we're talking about different things if we're bringing up off-field stuff. I wasn't really looking at it from that POV, I'm looking at it from the locker room POV and drama on the field and within the team.

Those Steelers teams had bigger pieces of shit then than they do now, since Ben, Harrison and Ward were all known to be scumbags off the field. But they had their lockerroom on lockdown, to the point where I genuinely don't remember any sort of Pickens/AB style drama in the lockerroom and on the field from those teams. It probably happened, I just don't remember it.

Lockdown is a very appropriate word to use.
Harrison and Ward were known workout and study freaks. I bet they hazed younger players who weren't putting in the same effort.

While Ben wasn't a workout or study person, he was a natural leader. He took his shots behind a bad Oline and kept ticking. Teammates respect the hell out of guys like that.

Look at this team and ask yourself: who is a leader? I could see Warren being an unofficial leader. B Jones might have that in him too.

On defense, Minkah comes to mind but that's it. Cam has been brainwashed by Tomlin and parrots the same stuff his coach does. Watt seems like a pretty quiet dude who leads by example.

Definitely not enough leaders to keep these dudes in line

Yeah I think if you can get Aiyuk without trading your 1st, it's a no brainer to do it. They're likely going to be using a 2nd on a WR if they don't make any trades, so just do like a 2nd and 3rd for Aiyuk and I think you're sitting in a great spot.

Probably not going to happen:
The Jaguars were reportedly working on a deal for Aiyuk, but the asking price was a first-round pick and wide receiver Zay Jones. Jacksonville decided the move would cost too much, so it backed out and left the door open for the next candidate.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Probably not going to happen:
The Jaguars were reportedly working on a deal for Aiyuk, but the asking price was a first-round pick and wide receiver Zay Jones. Jacksonville decided the move would cost too much, so it backed out and left the door open for the next candidate.

But the Jags said no to that, meaning SF will have to take less than that. I think a 2nd and 3rd is pretty realistic for what SF will be looking at.

At best, they’re pulling off a super late 1st or a high 2nd.

 

[Peat]

Yeah I think if you can get Aiyuk without trading your 1st, it's a no brainer to do it. They're likely going to be using a 2nd on a WR if they don't make any trades, so just do like a 2nd and 3rd for Aiyuk and I think you're sitting in a great spot.

My only concern with doing that is trading the 2nd means you realistically can't get both a RT and C from the draft. I think the only chance you'd have at getting both is a RT in round 1 and a C in round 2, but I think any C worthwhile will be gone by the 3rd round.

Well, my other concern is Pickens, but that's less important than filling out the OL.

I'm kinda easy with whatever they do but if I had to make this Smith offence work, then I'd be pushing all my chips at OL and hoping to figure out WR with whatever's left.

Because the great criticism I've heard about Smith, even in his best days with Tannehill, is there's no plan if the run game fails to go. And Payton didn't trust Wilson to keep the trains running on first and second downs so I don't see why the Steelers should, and Fields is a guy who gets beat if kept in the pocket. I don't think Aiyuk solves that.

Which means the first thing the offence needs to do is run well. Which means the OL has to win its battles.

Which I don't think happened against good teams nearly often enough.

 

[T1K]

I think you re-sign him and eventually just plan on letting Pickens walk after his 4th year. Or trade Pickens after next year and just have Aiyuk and Pickens for only 1 year.

I think either of them would be a franchise tag + trade situation similar to Tee Higgins. Letting one of them walk isn’t happening if we can tag them.

 

[Wattsburgh]

I would sign Tackle Jonah Williams. He’s the equivalent of Patrick Queen on Offense in regards to fast tracking info on teams in the North. Williams and Jones would be a good tandem.

I would trade our 2025 1st and whatever is needed to to get the Colts first rounder this year. With Anthony Richardson getting hurt his rookie year it makes it one less body of work to go off of. Meaning do you really want to sign another first round rookie when it’s time for AR’s first contract? Makes sense to separate that a bit and the Colts are great at cap control.

Stay aggressive. Love what has been done so far…

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I'm kinda easy with whatever they do but if I had to make this Smith offence work, then I'd be pushing all my chips at OL and hoping to figure out WR with whatever's left.

Because the great criticism I've heard about Smith, even in his best days with Tannehill, is there's no plan if the run game fails to go. And Payton didn't trust Wilson to keep the trains running on first and second downs so I don't see why the Steelers should, and Fields is a guy who gets beat if kept in the pocket. I don't think Aiyuk solves that.

Which means the first thing the offence needs to do is run well. Which means the OL has to win its battles.

Which I don't think happened against good teams nearly often enough.

That's where I'm at: we can talk about these cool adds at QB and potentially WR, but the Oline is the same as last year MINUS a starting C (realize the August roster will be different vs now). And the line last year wasn't dominating enough as it was.

They need an infusion of talent at 2 out of 5 positions. Not an easy task.

Fix the Oline and you fix 85% of the problems.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm kinda easy with whatever they do but if I had to make this Smith offence work, then I'd be pushing all my chips at OL and hoping to figure out WR with whatever's left.

Because the great criticism I've heard about Smith, even in his best days with Tannehill, is there's no plan if the run game fails to go. And Payton didn't trust Wilson to keep the trains running on first and second downs so I don't see why the Steelers should, and Fields is a guy who gets beat if kept in the pocket. I don't think Aiyuk solves that.

Which means the first thing the offence needs to do is run well. Which means the OL has to win its battles.

Which I don't think happened against good teams nearly often enough.

I agree with this, but the counterargument I'd throw out here is that the offense did run extremely well to end last year with Moore at LT and Cole at C. Do you truly need to replace both to have an effective OL with running the ball?

I think keeping Moore mostly sucks from a pass protection POV, not a running POV. Replacing Cole with a good C should result in the OL being a good run blocking group.

 

[Buddy Bizarre]

I agree with this, but the counterargument I'd throw out here is that the offense did run extremely well to end last year with Moore at LT and Cole at C. Do you truly need to replace both to have an effective OL with running the ball?

I think keeping Moore mostly sucks from a pass protection POV, not a running POV. Replacing Cole with a good C should result in the OL being a good run blocking group.

Chicken or the egg thing, but I believe the Oline's success at the end of the year boiled down to two factors:

1) MR had the ability to beat you over the top (Mitch and KP never did/could) so we saw a ton less 8 man fronts
2) Quality of competition. Note how little success we had against the Bills

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah PFF is PFF and whatnot, but from this:

PFF: Dan Moore Jr. Is 2023's Worst Pass-Blocking OT

Pro Football Focus isn’t fond of Dan Moore Jr. And given how harshly the outlet has graded him, the feeling is probably mutual. With PFF’s Week 18 grading completed, we have final regular-season numbers to examine. And as has consistently been the theme throughout the year, Moore finished in the...

steelersdepot.com

Moore was ranked 42nd of 58 tackles when it comes to run blocking, which isn't great but it is passable. I feel like if you want to argue that all that matters is maintaining a strong running game, I think Moore is less pressing to replace than getting a strong run blocking C. Moore does suck because he's an absolutely awful pass blocker, but in terms of run blocking, he's not absolutely awful.

Not only that, but just from a basic logic perspective, a C will likely have more of an impact on run blocking than a LT would have. Any runs up the middle will have the C playing a significant role, while the LT only has a huge role in runs specifically towards the left side.

But I think the point more overall is this: how significant of an impact does Moore being a poor run blocker at LT have on their running game? If the rest of the OL is good, I don't feel like Moore at LT would be a problem in terms of run blocking.

 

[WickedWrister]

I would assume any Aiyuk trade would have the receiving team signing him to a long term extension. Like 3-4 years $75-100m.

I have no idea what Aiyuk costs in this years landscape. Impending FA next year hurts his value but he just turned 26 like 3 days ago and is coming off career high numbers. Don't think past year WR trades (Cooper, Cooks) or this year (Jeudy, DJ) are comparable.

Maybe a 2025 1st is on the table?

 

[WickedWrister]

Was curious the last WR to be traded for a 1st. Excluding Claypool for pick 32 and the DJ Moore deal. Forgot it happened 4 times in the 2022 off season.