The Pittsburgh/Detroit back-to-back Cup Finals in retrospect

[JackSlater]

The series wasn't "moved up" so the injury excuse nor the "Wings were gassed" excuse was not "magnified" . That's been clearly established. The way the games were actually scheduled (Games 1 to 5 anyways) was already established prior to the CFs. Once the CFs were finished, they formally scheduled the SCF games; there was no change to the formal schedule. That the Pens had one more day of rest was 100% attributed to them sweeping the Caines.

You are making waaaay too much of the NHL's illogical attempt to publicize tentative scheduling.

Whatever advantage you think the Pens gained at the start was made up at the end, and no reasonable person looks at the individual game results and says either team took was affected by either of those "advantages".

The series was moved up. You established that yourself within this very thread.

 

[daver]

It appears the NHL had a schedule format they wanted but that doesn't mean they had to follow it if there were better options, did they? There was no reason for the back to back and 3 in 4 obsession - the league had never even tried it before and suddenly it had to be done.

They also scheduled the Pens to have an even worse start then the Wings did. The Pens took care of their business better than the Wings did so they earned the extra day off.

The league was not going to change their schedule because it would have been better for one team to deal with their injuries. They established the format they wanted and followed through with it.

 

[daver]

The series was moved up. You established that yourself within this very thread.

No, the series was scheduled after May 27 to start on May 30th. They did not change it after that.

A schedule that includes the words "if" is not a formal schedule.

 

[JackSlater]

No, the series was scheduled after May 27 to start on May 30th. They did not change it after that.

A schedule that includes the words "if" is not a formal schedule.

Again I don't know if this is a lie or intentional confusion, though I do know that it is ridiculous. This is the NHL's press release:

The National Hockey League announced today the possible start dates for the 2009 Stanley Cup Final.
If both Conference Final series have been decided by Tuesday, May 26, the Western Conference winner would host Game 1 of the 2009 Stanley Cup Final on Thursday, May 28.Otherwise, Game 1 will be played on Friday, June 5.
Dates, start times and broadcast information will be released when available.

The "If" is used to differentiate between the two, and only two, conditional options. The condition was met for the second schedule, not the first, and yet the series began six days earlier than the schedule indicated. Hence the series was moved up six days. That the series as moved up is a fact, not a matter for debate.

Red Wings unhappy with finals schedule change

Notice Lebrun stating that the series was "moved up". Perhaps he has a grasp of basic grammar and isn't desperate to deny an actual fact.

 

[Datsyukian Deke]

I still contend that the Round 2 series vs Anaheim took a lot out of the Wings with it being a hard fought series, and also going 7 games.

Of course, the injuries during & right before the Finals didn't help by any means, but that's already been mentioned on multiple occasions.

 

[quoipourquoi]

On April 2nd, NBC announced that Game 1 of the Conference Finals would take place on Saturday, May 16th. Ultimately, it was pushed back to Sunday, giving Detroit an extra day of rest after Game 7 than what was originally scheduled.

NBC giveth, NBC taketh away.

Had the league not pushed back the Conference Finals from its original schedule, maybe Detroit gets extra rest between Rounds 3 and 4 instead of Rounds 2 and 3.

...or maybe Chicago does.

 

[K Fleur]

Blame the schedule if it makes you feel better, but the Red Wings had their opportunities to win this series and they failed.

Up 2-0, Datsyuk comes back and they’re then up 3-2, then a game 7 at home where Crosby plays one shift after the halfway point of the 2nd period. First team in 40 years to lose a game 7 at home in the finals.

 

[danincanada]

On April 2nd, NBC announced that Game 1 of the Conference Finals would take place on Saturday, May 16th. Ultimately, it was pushed back to Sunday, giving Detroit an extra day of rest after Game 7 than what was originally scheduled.

NBC giveth, NBC taketh away.

Had the league not pushed back the Conference Finals from its original schedule, maybe Detroit gets extra rest between Rounds 3 and 4 instead of Rounds 2 and 3.

...or maybe Chicago does.

The quarter finals finished the same day in both conferences on May 14. Why would the NHL schedule the West to start the CFs 2 days before the East started anyways? The change made sense. Or did they move back the schedule for both CFs by a day?

 

[quoipourquoi]

The quarter finals finished the same day in both conferences on May 14. Why would the NHL schedule the West to start the CFs 2 days before the East started anyways? The change made sense. Or did they move back the schedule for both CFs by a day?

Both. So instead of the previously announced Saturday/Sunday, they went with Sunday/Monday.

 

[danincanada]

Both. So instead of the previously announced Saturday/Sunday, they went with Sunday/Monday.

You didn’t mention that in your original post. So the NHL moved things by a day for everyone, not just the Red Wings.

This is what a responsible league should do if they can. In this thread people seem to think (other people’s) teams should be put through the ringer with the schedule. Even a day off here and there can improve the quality of hockey. As fans we should support it where it makes sense.

 

[quoipourquoi]

You didn’t mention that in your original post. So the NHL moved things by a day for everyone, not just the Red Wings.

That the NHL changes previously announced schedules should be the takeaway. It happened in the round immediately before the Finals. Not exactly unprecedented. Just as playing with two days off between the WCF and SCF is not unprecedented. Just as playing Game 3 of the SCF six days after the WCF is not unprecedented.

That the 2009 Detroit Red Wings complained about it should shock no one; they complained about how Pittsburgh shook their hands.

 

[danincanada]

That the NHL changes previously announced schedules should be the takeaway. It happened in the round immediately before the Finals. Not exactly unprecedented. Just as playing with two days off between the WCF and SCF is not unprecedented. Just as playing Game 3 of the SCF six days after the WCF is not unprecedented.

No one has really questioned the NHL making a change instead of waiting 9 days so your "takeaway" is moot here. What I've questioned is why they felt that had to go from one extreme to another instead of a schedule that actually made sense to set up the best finals possible for everyone.

In the big picture the finals schedule was very quick considering the circumstances. Let's see...the CFs only went 4 and 5 games. It's very rare that they play after only 2 days off when this happens - has it ever happened in the modern era? I don't have time to check right now. The back to backs have only happened once before, which was 1940 and they've never done 3 in 4 days to start before - even in 1940 they had an extra day off after the back to backs. The 3 games in 6 days only happen every 20 years or so, right? But, again, that seems to only happen when one of the CFs goes 7 games. Overall this was an unprecedented schedule. In fact, I haven't been able to find exact finals schedule being tried by the NHL ever before. Sounds kind of unprecedented to me.

That the 2009 Detroit Red Wings complained about it should shock no one; they complained about how Pittsburgh shook their hands.

Holy hyperbole. I recall one player complaining and that was Kris Draper. Lidstrom, Zetterberg, Franzen, and Osgood all basically said he's young and he got caught up in the moment so they weren't offended or upset about it. It was the media and fans who took Draper's complaint and ran with it and blew it up. I blame Pierre McQuire for the whole thing because he jumped on the ice and tried to interview Crosby right after the buzzer went. Let the guy celebrate with his team and take part in the normal traditions!

 

[daver]

The quarter finals finished the same day in both conferences on May 14. Why would the NHL schedule the West to start the CFs 2 days before the East started anyways? The change made sense. Or did they move back the schedule for both CFs by a day?

Hmmm.... seems you are able to apply some critical thinkimg around this schedule change but not around the league scheduling the SCF after the same amount of days after the CFs as they had intended all along.

If you think they made a change, then the change made sense, right? Whether you think the amount of days to play the SCF should be 16 days, 21 days or 30 days, doesn't change the fact that the league did not waver from their original intention to play the SCF three days after the CFs.

 

[BHD]

I still contend that the Round 2 series vs Anaheim took a lot out of the Wings with it being a hard fought series, and also going 7 games.

Of course, the injuries during & right before the Finals didn't help by any means, but that's already been mentioned on multiple occasions.

So now we're blaming the physical toll of the playoffs. I'm sure no team has ever gone through that in the playoffs.

 

[danincanada]

Hmmm.... seems you are able to apply some critical thinkimg around this schedule change but not around the league scheduling the SCF after the same amount of days after the CFs as they had intended all along.

If you think they made a change, then the change made sense, right? Whether you think the amount of days to play the SCF should be 16 days, 21 days or 30 days, doesn't change the fact that the league did not waver from their original intention to play the SCF three days after the CFs.

I don’t want to be rude or condescending but your posts are making less and less sense to me. The NHL didn’t just have one schedule they intended all along so you lost me right there. How could they? After the CF’s weren’t both sweeps the NHL has their “potential” June 5th start, which would have been 9 days in between. This alone displays they didn’t only originally intend to have a 2 day break in between.

Was I saying any change the NHL made would make sense because they made it? Nope. A more reasonable and less rushed finals schedule makes sense. Not going from one extreme to the other.

 

[daver]

I don’t want to be rude or condescending but your posts are making less and less sense to me. The NHL didn’t just have one schedule they intended all along so you lost me right there. How could they? After the CF’s weren’t both sweeps the NHL has their “potential” June 5th start, which would have been 9 days in between. This alone displays they didn’t only originally intend to have a 2 day break in between.

Was I saying any change the NHL made would make sense because they made it? Nope. A more reasonable and less rushed finals schedule makes sense. Not going from one extreme to the other.

The schedule before the CFs had the SCF starting on June 5 at Detroit or Chicago after the Pens/Caines Game 7 on June 2 with a back-to-back for Games 1 and 2. The Pens would have had the same two days off including a travel day; a worse scenario than what the Wings got.

With the CFs not going 7 games, why would expect the league to not schedule the SCF with the same 2 day break and with a back-to-back? It was not a shocker that they did this.

Why they felt the need to do a tentative schedule in the interim before the CFs were actually over or why they wanted a back-to-back in the first place is a mystery but it was not unfair to either team.

 

[Datsyukian Deke]

So now we're blaming the physical toll of the playoffs. I'm sure no team has ever gone through that in the playoffs.

Hardly, simply stating an observation of mine from then.

 

[Pancakes]

That's not what I meant, I wasn't trying to compare the impact of losing Letang with the schedule. The Red Wings had their own injuries in '09 you could compare that with.

You saw a team that had so many guys playing at a fraction of their usual level due to injuries that you saw a team playing at a fraction of their usual level as well. It was a really tight series and I don't remember the Red Wings looking like the better team the majority of the time but you and I were watching it from two different perspectives because I watched Detroit all season and I'm assuming you watched Pittsburgh play. I was extremely proud of my team because so many guys were clearly playing hurt but they fought until the very end and still made it close.

Yeah, Pens fan. It was a tight series for sure I just thought Detroit looked better and should have won. Pens got the goaltending with Maf in games 6-7 which was mostly the difference.

Iirc Detroit even outscored Pittsburgh in the series, albeit mostly thanks to the game 5 drubbing.

 

[daver]

Hardly, simply stating an observation of mine from then.

Too bad the Wings weren't as good as the previous year when they would have closed out the Ducks in 5 or 6 games.

 

[daver]

Yeah, Pens fan. It was a tight series for sure I just thought Detroit looked better and should have won. Pens got the goaltending with Maf in games 6-7 which was mostly the difference.

Iirc Detroit even outscored Pittsburgh in the series, albeit mostly thanks to the game 5 drubbing.

Really? The Pens should have gotten at least a split in Detroit, Crosby was especially snakebitten in those two games, then looked like the better team in Games 3 and 4. Game 5 was the Wings then Games 6 and 7 were tight.

 

[Merya]

Too bad the Wings weren't as good as the previous year when they would have closed out the Ducks in 5 or 6 games.

I don't think there are many or any teams in close history, that would've been favorites against the 07 Ducks. Anaheim had absolutely everything falling perfectly to place that season. They had near career years from the first line, hungry and cocky kids in the second (Perry mouthing at Datsyuk), and one of the best 3rd lines of all time. Coupled with the best top3D. Even alltime greats would've had hard time against the Påhlson line backed by Pronger and Beauchemin/Niedermayer.
2009 is all about journeyman Max Talbot, hero of game seven!

 

[BHD]

Hardly, simply stating an observation of mine from then.

Okay.

I'm sure other fans have "observations" about officiating, scheduling, and even the in clement weather at the time too. The Wings lost on the same grounds as every other runner-up has: they didn't play well enough when they had to.

 

[danincanada]

The schedule before the CFs had the SCF starting on June 5 at Detroit or Chicago after the Pens/Caines Game 7 on June 2 with a back-to-back for Games 1 and 2. The Pens would have had the same two days off including a travel day; a worse scenario than what the Wings got.

With the CFs not going 7 games, why would expect the league to not schedule the SCF with the same 2 day break and with a back-to-back? It was not a shocker that they did this.

I don't agree with that type of schedule period, it's too quick for the finals. The NHL owes it their fans and teams to allow enough time off so the hockey doesn't suffer. But you just pointed out a big difference. If they Pens go 7 games in the CFs then they are pushing the NHL's schedule further back into the summer, instead of finishing up earlier and being ahead of the overall playoff schedule. That's why what they did doesn't make sense and is unusual because usually when teams finish early they get more time off because the NHL isn't rushed. That's exactly what the Red Wings complained about in LeBrun's article, too. They pointed out how rushed the schedule was and they were right.

The other tentative schedule (May 28) didn't have two days off, so let's not pretend that's the only way the NHL could start that year. Realistically, they could do whatever was possible like they do every year but they were obsessed with rushing it that particular year.

And now you just made me realize something. The NHL had the same early schedule (first 5 games) configuration on June 5th as their actual May 30th start? But I've heard so many times that they were forced to make this schedule due to "conflicts". It would be quite the coincidence if the only two possible schedules they could make due to Conan's premier and arena availability were those two, and they had the exact same configuration for the first 5 games. It's so unbelievable that I don't believe it to be true, I believe they had other potential options and chose to rush the finals to the max instead.

Why they felt the need to do a tentative schedule in the interim before the CFs were actually over or why they wanted a back-to-back in the first place is a mystery but it was not unfair to either team.

If the NHL went with the June 5th start and the Red Wings got 9 days off and Datsyuk started the series and the team looked relatively healthy and won the series, would you think the schedule was unfair to the Pens?

 

[daver]

The other tentative schedule (May 28) didn't have two days off, so let's not pretend that's the only way the NHL could start that year. Realistically, they could do whatever was possible like they do every year but they were obsessed with rushing it that particular year

You are right. The May 28 schedule had one day off! With travel to Detroit boot.

This is why noone outside of Detroit wants to hear any complaints about how the schedule impacted Detroit. It could have gone even worse for the Pens depending on how the CFs finished.

 

[daver]

I don't agree with that type of schedule period, it's too quick for the finals. The NHL owes it their fans and teams to allow enough time off so the hockey doesn't suffer. But you just pointed out a big difference. If they Pens go 7 games in the CFs then they are pushing the NHL's schedule further back into the summer, instead of finishing up earlier and being ahead of the overall playoff schedule. That's why what they did doesn't make sense and is unusual because usually when teams finish early they get more time off because the NHL isn't rushed. That's exactly what the Red Wings complained about in LeBrun's article, too. They pointed out how rushed the schedule was and they were right.

'
Sure, I would agree with that. Others don't have an issue with only one day between games or quicker schedule especially if they are in the same time zone.

But this is no way should be tied into Detroit's injury issues and/or a reason why they lost. Detroit had their chance to get an advantage out of the scheduling if they finished off their CF better than the Pens did. If they had swept too, they had two extra days off.