The Picks that were Traded/Acquired

[Bourne Endeavor]

Jimbo might have thought that this was the case but in reality, Jimbo is a moron that isn't smart enough to know what he doesn't know.

If we had

• Not given Sbisa and Dorsett raises
• Fired WD for one of the worst playoff coaching performances I've ever seen
• Not traded for Sutter
• Not traded for Prust (waived Kassian, traded Kassian for a 7th, rehabed Kassian.. I don't give a crap... oh btw, Kassian was 24 and had had a pretty decent season in 13/14 under Torts... just saying)
• Used the Sbisa and Dorsett raise money
• plus the difference between Prust and Kassian's salary
• plus the difference between Sutter and Bonino's salary
• to resign Matthias and Richardson
• and sign a better d-man than Bartkowski (who for some effing reason we gave 1.75M to after only playing 47 games and scoring a grand total of 4 assists in 13/14.

We should be miles ahead of where we are today. We'd have a top 9 with lines 2 and 3 being completely interchangeable, veteran center depth in Hank-Bonino-Richardson-Matthias, happy veterans, a real mentorpede and 2 or 3 spots available on the 4th line for Horvat and prospects to compete for.

Oh yeah... and a coach that the vets respect.

You are conveniently neglecting more than a few things:

- Dorsett was coming off a solid season, especially by his standards. I wouldn't have offered in as long a term, however the contract itself is scarily an overpaidment. Sbisa was a silly gamble, I'll concede.

- Evidently, you haven't seen many coaches. Doubtless Willie was brutally outcoached in the playoffs. Nonetheless, is was his rookie season. You do not fire a highly sought after coach over one bad playoff showing his first year in.

- Sutter is fine; and in fact outscored Bonino in half as many games played prior to the latter being paired with Hagelin and Kessel.

- Contrary to popular belief, we did not tact on a 5th for pure generosity. No one wanted Kassian. Waiving him would have opened up questions of his substance abuse. A trade offered him a quiet chance to start anew-- one he subsequently blew. Prust, meanwhile, had a long standing reputation as a toted character guy and cost a paltry 800k more on our cap.

- To spend on... what, exactly?

That center depth forces Horvat and Baertschi out. Unless you mean to force Horvat to the wing. I would rather not mimic Montreal's stupidity on prospect development. And from all indications, the veterans like Willie.

 

[Hit the post]

Sbisa was a silly gamble, I'll concede.

Silly? It was moronic. Silly gamble would be the contract Gillis gave Sturm.

You do not fire a highly sought after coach over one bad playoff showing his first year in.

Al MacNeil was essentially fired after WINNING the Stanley Cup in his first season in.

 

[racerjoe]

You are conveniently neglecting more than a few things:

Ok easy rebuttal here from a third party.

- Dorsett was coming off a solid season, especially by his standards. I wouldn't have offered in as long a term, however the contract itself is scarily an overpaidment. Sbisa was a silly gamble, I'll concede.

Fair enough, but why waste the money on a fourth liner who was clearly having a career year. This point shouldn't just be put on the Canucks, Hell Chicago did it too with Bickel a while back, but this was over a fourth liner in a career year. You shouldn't waste that kind of money on a Dorsett like player.

- Evidently, you haven't seen many coaches. Doubtless Willie was brutally outcoached in the playoffs. Nonetheless, is was his rookie season. You do not fire a highly sought after coach over one bad playoff showing his first year in.

I could say a bit about this point but I will just straight up concede it. I think he has proven to not learn from mistakes quickly and not adapt well. But sure. Having said that, there is no way you can still say he doesn't deserve the ax, especially if Hartley was just fired.

- Sutter is fine; and in fact outscored Bonino in half as many games played prior to the latter being paired with Hagelin and Kessel.

If you are going to throw out the Hagelin and Kessel stats I think it is fair to then also throw out the Sedin stats. Fact is we had a second line the year before, and it was a terrible trade for two players who at best are similar value players, where we bled value in every way.

- Contrary to popular belief, we did not tact on a 5th for pure generosity. No one wanted Kassian. Waiving him would have opened up questions of his substance abuse. A trade offered him a quiet chance to start anew-- one he subsequently blew. Prust, meanwhile, had a long standing reputation as a toted character guy and cost a paltry 800k more on our cap.

Waiving him would have been better than taking on extra money and adding a pick, especially for a team in the boat the Canucks are in. I still think worst case you play Kassian with the twins and raise his value a bit to the point where you don't bleed value... again.

- To spend on... what, exactly?

I hate this question cause I say a name and you say "Why would they come here?" Neither of us can actually say. But how about just better than Bart, or more depth.

That center depth forces Horvat and Baertschi out. Unless you mean to force Horvat to the wing. I would rather not mimic Montreal's stupidity on prospect development. And from all indications, the veterans like Willie.

How does the center depth not allow Horvat to play 4C, and then move to 3C? That is the same center depth we had minus Vey, when Horvat MADE THE TEAM. It would also not change Beartschi situation.

 

[CanaFan]

You are conveniently neglecting more than a few things:

- Contrary to popular belief, we did not tact on a 5th for pure generosity. No one wanted Kassian. Waiving him would have opened up questions of his substance abuse. A trade offered him a quiet chance to start anew-- one he subsequently blew. Prust, meanwhile, had a long standing reputation as a toted character guy and cost a paltry 800k more on our cap.

And you know this how exactly? Because Benning and Linden said so?

Funny then that after being involved in his MVA and undergoing stage 2 treatment while with Montreal they were then able to trade Kassian to Edmonton straight up for Ben Scrivens, a marginal but nominally useful AHL/NHL goalie. No kicker or throw in to convince Edmonton to take their unwanted player, just a straight up swap of marginal assets. Edmonton even retained salary on Scrivens so it ended up being a cap neutral move rather than a dump. And this is AFTER the public embarrassment Kassian suffered while with Montreal. Yet you're buying the story that no one would take Kassian without extra payment back when he was only in Stage 1 and his "issue" was not a widespread PR nightmare?

Man, the Canucks PR / spin dept must think they've got the easiest job in the world with this market.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

And you know this how exactly? Because Benning and Linden said so?

Funny then that after being involved in his MVA and undergoing stage 2 treatment while with Montreal they were then able to trade Kassian to Edmonton straight up for Ben Scrivens, a marginal but nominally useful AHL/NHL goalie. No kicker or throw in to convince Edmonton to take their unwanted player, just a straight up swap of marginal assets. Edmonton even retained salary on Scrivens so it ended up being a cap neutral move rather than a dump. And this is AFTER the public embarrassment Kassian suffered while with Montreal. Yet you're buying the story that no one would take Kassian without extra payment back when he was only in Stage 1 and his "issue" was not a widespread PR nightmare?

Man, the Canucks PR / spin dept must think they've got the easiest job in the world with this market.

No team wanted Kassian, the Canucks had to add a pick just to mItigate the risk for Montreal.

Scrivens lol. Great argument.

 

[Hit the post]

Scrivens lol. Great argument.

How isn't it a great argument? Habs didn't have to give up any picks in the deal and Scrivens was a more useful player than 'waaaaaaaaaaahhhhh I'm going to get scratched Prust'.

lol indeed.

 

[CanaFan]

No team wanted Kassian, the Canucks had to add a pick just to mItigate the risk for Montreal.

Scrivens lol. Great argument.

Scrivens = Prust. No 5th. "But no team wanted Kassian". There's the real lulz.

 

[CanaFan]

"But no team wanted/valued [Canuck player name here] and we had to pay extra/accept their low offer/offer more to take our player for us!"

- Zack Kassian
- Eddie Lack
- Chris Higgins
- Dan Hamhuis
- Radim Vrbata


The Canucks must have that excuse built into their press releases by now.

 

[mathonwy]

Wait, over in the Sutter thread you said I was making a crazy argument for suggesting that Benning doesn't believe in a clear division between the 2nd line and 3rd line and that Horvat had surpassed Bonino by the end of Bonino's last season here. Now you're talking about a top 9 with lines 2 and 3 completely interchangeable?

When you have a team composed of mainly vets, you have the luxury of being able to blur the division between lines WHICH IS WHAT THE 14/15 SEASON WAS ALL ABOUT. Four line team right?

When you have a team composed of half noobs half vets, you DON'T have the luxury of blurring lines. It's imperative that you structure your team in a traditional fashion so your noobs can START LEARNING THE NHL GAME AND START DEVELOPING PROPERLY. The majority of people do their best learning in a structured environment with lots of more experienced people to ask questions of. This is a fact of life.

So when Jimbo says he doesn't believe in a clear division between the 2nd and 3rd line and then proceeds to strip this team of all its veteran depth and trades a traditional center for a specialist center... well... like I said... that's a big neon sign over his head screaming "I have no idea what I'm doing".

 

[ProstheticConscience]

"But no team wanted/valued [Canuck player name here] and we had to pay extra/accept their low offer/offer more to take our player for us!"

- Zack Kassian
- Eddie Lack
- Chris Higgins
- Dan Hamhuis
- Radim Vrbata


The Canucks must have that excuse built into their press releases by now.

This.

After the Kesler deal, I thought: "Well, he had a full NTC, only wanted to go to one team with the cap space to get him, wanted out...oh well. We got what we got." But it's happened just about every single damn time this team makes a trade now. Clarkson can be dealt. Datsyuk's dead cap space can be dealt. Our guys? No way, we're all delusional thinking anyone on our team has any objective value whatsoever...yeah right. At what point does one finally bow to the brick wall obvious and just accept Lindenningbrod as the abysmally terrible negotiating team it is?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Also interesting was how the team promptly reeled off, what, 10 straight losses after Linden gave WD a public vote of confidence.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

Scrivens = Prust. No 5th. "But no team wanted Kassian". There's the real lulz.

Prove that teams wanted Kassian before his truck smashed into a tree?

 

[opendoor]

"But no team wanted/valued [Canuck player name here] and we had to pay extra/accept their low offer/offer more to take our player for us!"

- Zack Kassian
- Eddie Lack
- Chris Higgins
- Dan Hamhuis
- Radim Vrbata


The Canucks must have that excuse built into their press releases by now.

It's particularly funny when a team like Calgary got three 2nds, a 3rd, a 4th, Jokkipakka, and Pollack for three guys (Glencross, Hudler, and Russell) are currently without NHL contracts.

 

[DanCloutiersFiveHole]

Prove that teams wanted Kassian before his truck smashed into a tree?

So you are implying that smashing into a tree increased his trade value?

 

[DanCloutiersFiveHole]

"But no team wanted/valued [Canuck player name here] and we had to pay extra/accept their low offer/offer more to take our player for us!"

- Zack Kassian
- Eddie Lack
- Chris Higgins
- Dan Hamhuis
- Radim Vrbata


The Canucks must have that excuse built into their press releases by now.

Every year we watch teams unload players that are perceived to have negative value, or miraculously weasel their way out of precarious positions. Ryane Clowe in 2013 had no goals at the TDL and he returned a 2nd and a 3rd.
But the rhetoric on here is always so glass half full because we've come to expect that our managers won't be the ones to get the better of these deals.
"You have to pay for quality"
"He wasn't a proven talent"
"The GM's hands were tied"
"He hurt his own value"

Excuses with literally every trade. It doesn't matter whether we have the leverage or not, when the return is underwhelming there is always an excuse. The standards just seem to be so low for some.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

So you are implying that smashing into a tree increased his trade value?

Cleaning up for real likely did.

 

[DanCloutiersFiveHole]

This.

After the Kesler deal, I thought: "Well, he had a full NTC, only wanted to go to one team with the cap space to get him, wanted out...oh well. We got what we got." But it's happened just about every single damn time this team makes a trade now. Clarkson can be dealt. Datsyuk's dead cap space can be dealt. Our guys? No way, we're all delusional thinking anyone on our team has any objective value whatsoever...yeah right. At what point does one finally bow to the brick wall obvious and just accept Lindenningbrod as the abysmally terrible negotiating team it is?

That's the thing. If Benning's trades were even half and half, he would get way more slack around here. Everyone makes bad moves, and even though those moves would be criticized, the good moves would be recognized. I hated the Garrison trade/flip for Vey and the Kesler return was underwhelming, but at that point, you can drink the glass half full because you haven't seen the GM dealing from a position of strength. But we have seen Benning trading from a position of strength and the results are equally disappointing.

 

[DanCloutiersFiveHole]

Cleaning up for real likely did.

So Montreal only wanted him because he had substance abuse issues then? Once he "cleaned up for real" they booted him to Edmonton, who was 100% convinced that his issues were resolved because nothing says "I'm on the path to recovery" like a MAV.

 

[Fat Tony]

So you are implying that smashing into a tree increased his trade value?

It was his stellar play after the trade...

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

So Montreal only wanted him because he had substance abuse issues then? Once he "cleaned up for real" they booted him to Edmonton, who was 100% convinced that his issues were resolved because nothing says "I'm on the path to recovery" like a MAV.

Montreal needed a pick to mitigate the potential and real risks associated with acquiring kassian at that point.

 

[CanaFan]

Prove that teams wanted Kassian before his truck smashed into a tree?

lol sure. It's fairly basic reasoning that a) he had value after smashing into a tree, b) Smashing into trees doesn't increase the value of a player, ergo c) he had equal if not higher value before smashing into a tree.

The options we are left with are a) publicly embarrassing incident and stage 2 rehab increased Kassian's value, or b) Jim Benning is terrible at trades.

Believe whichever you like I guess but I know which one fits with reality the best.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Montreal needed a pick to mitigate the potential and real risks associated with acquiring kassian at that point.

Edmonton didn't?

 

[CanaFan]

Montreal needed a pick to mitigate the potential and real risks associated with acquiring kassian at that point.

why didn't Edmonton? At that point Kassian hadn't played an NHL game since Vancouver traded him away. How was the "risk" for Edmonton any lower (and not actually higher) than it was for Montreal 6 months earlier?

 

[CanaFan]

Edmonton didn't?

Gonna take a stab at the answer coming up soon. Something about Kassian completing his stage 2 rehab and that making teams more convinced he was finally serious about his future than when he was *only* in stage 1 rehab. Cause you know, the more serious the problem the less risk involved obviously. #logic

 

[James Underbuss*]

why didn't Edmonton? At that point Kassian hadn't played an NHL game since Vancouver traded him away. How was the "risk" for Edmonton any lower (and not actually higher) than it was for Montreal 6 months earlier?

it was a shuffle and a gamble for edmonton, who had nothing to lose by taking on kassian

edmonton and kassian are both rehab projects so its a poetic fit