Blue Jays Discussion: The "Let's blow up the team" edition

[zeke]

No, but you're saying they expected Liriano to provide them with zero value.

no, i'm saying wasting any deadline trade capital at all on prospects last year was shameful.

 

[Paladin2799]

are you saying we were forced to take those prospects to get liriano?

I think that the liriano deal is an outlier.

Shatkins recognized that hutch was not in their long term plans and targeted liriano. They correctly recognized that Hutch >> Liriano in terms of "value" and rightfully added more prospects onto the deal.

Admittedly I am huge proponent of package deals to get quality, but we did really need a replacement #5 pitcher, and liriano is a quality pitcher for that slot. I'm more then happy with the deal personally and if that is what we can expect to see in the future, then great.

Not happy about EE leaving tho.

 

[TNCHL]

Bring Charlie Blackmon to Toronto

 

[zeke]

I think that the liriano deal is an outlier.

Shatkins recognized that hutch was not in their long term plans and targeted liriano. They correctly recognized that Hutch >> Liriano in terms of "value" and rightfully added more prospects onto the deal.

Admittedly I am huge proponent of package deals to get quality, but we did really need a replacement #5 pitcher, and liriano is a quality pitcher for that slot. I'm more then happy with the deal personally and if that is what we can expect to see in the future, then great.

Not happy about EE leaving tho.

so get them to throw in something to help us win, like sean rodriguez or something.

 

[Paladin2799]

so get them to throw in something to help us win, like sean rodriguez or something.

Honestly, Hutch was not on the MLB roster. We did get something to help us win. Liriano.

Both of those prospects were in the top10 of their organization I believe and fit organizational weaknesses especially a decent corner outfield prospect. Admittedly it wasn't great, but i'm happy with the deal.

 

[dredeye]

so get them to throw in something to help us win, like sean rodriguez or something.

Man are you ever happy? They got a great haul for Hutch and it's not acceptable to you because they didn't only get roster players. It was a smart trade then and now and did exactly what we needed it to

 

[ShaneFalco]

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/12/jose-bautista-willing-to-consider-one-year-deal.html

Veteran slugger Jose Bautista is willing to take a one-year contract, according to Jeff Passan of Yahoo Sports. There’s something of a catch, though: per the report, “he wants it to be at a higher value than the qualifying offer.”

It seems, then, that Bautista would need to see something greater than $17.2MM on an offer sheet for the 2017 season before he’s willing to give up his pursuit of a lengthier pact — at least at this stage. Notably, the report does not suggest that the organization has shown any movement on its part; at last check, Toronto had yet to indicate a willingness to exceed the value of the QO that it previously extended, and Bautista declined. As Passan puts it, “the next move is the Blue Jays’.”

It’ll be interesting to see whether this new bargaining position for Bautista changes the calculus for Toronto (or other organizations). Much of the risk in his profile lies in his age (36); though he took a step back in the power department last year, he also dealt with some injuries and still maintained his top-of-class plate discipline. All told, Bautista still generated a strong .234/.366/.452 batting line with 22 home runs in 517 plate appearances. In that regard, the demand for a salary in excess of the QO does not seem startling; coming into the winter, after all, expectations were that he could find a multi-year contract with an AAV in that ballpark.

Other market markers seem relevant here, too. Carlos Beltran landed $16MM from the Astros on a one-year term, while Matt Holliday got $13MM from the Yankees. It’s certainly arguable that Bautista is a bigger prize than either of those players, though neither required draft compensation. (For Toronto, the club wouldn’t punt one of its existing picks, but re-signing Bautista would mean surrendering its rights to a compensatory choice.)

 

[SpezDispenser]

Bring Charlie Blackmon to Toronto

Jays apparently said no to a swap of Stroman for Blackmon, so that's likely that.

That was on mlbtraderumors.com

 

[Anthrax442]

I revel in the schadenfreude of Bautista's contract saga. I love it when arrogant asswipes run their mouths and then can't back it up.

 

[Cor]

Wait, people are trying to make the Liriano deal seem like a bad thing?

Lirl, some people.

Quality #5 pitcher, and two solid prospects, for a pitcher who wasn't in the long-term plans


How horrible.

 

[zeke]

Man are you ever happy? They got a great haul for Hutch and it's not acceptable to you because they didn't only get roster players. It was a smart trade then and now and did exactly what we needed it to

you're damn right i'm not happy when we are trying to win a world series and our FO is adding prospects a at the deadline.

 

[Woodman19]

you're damn right i'm not happy when we are trying to win a world series and our FO is adding prospects a at the deadline.

You wouldn't call acquiring Liriano for Hutchison straight up as a "go for it now" type of move? I fail to see why getting prospects added in somehow makes the deal bad.

 

[Mach85]

You wouldn't call acquiring Liriano for Hutchison straight up as a "go for it now" type of move? I fail to see why getting prospects added in somehow makes the deal bad.

I don't agree (when you have the chance to make such a plus move, you take it), but my understanding of Zeke's argument is that it wasn't the Liriano for Hutch part of the deal that was the issue, it was taking prospects over someone such as Sean Rodriguez who could have helped us against the Indians.

If the Jays wanted Rodriguez, taking the prospects vs getting SRod (is that a thing?) aren't mutually exclusive. His price tag wasn't so exorbitant that they couldn't have swung a separate deal. The valuation of the roster at the time, and what was available, was that his services weren't needed.

 

[zeke]

You wouldn't call acquiring Liriano for Hutchison straight up as a "go for it now" type of move? I fail to see why getting prospects added in somehow makes the deal bad.

obviously, since we got more than Liriano in the deal, we could have got more than Liriano to help us win a world series in the deal.

 

[teeder333*]

The only bungle I have seen these guys make so far is letting E. E. go, but hey, life goes on.

Now? For sure they should trade Donaldson at first clear sign they are out of the playoff picture.

Stock right up. See things clearly everyone, this is going to be a scorched earth clone of the Maple Leafs situation soon.

The big difference is, you will have half the fan base at least going into a another multi decade coma when it comes to thinking of attending any games,

But this is what is coming.

They might keep Sanchez though to sentence him to a Roy Halliday like penance. Keep a face on the franchise in the hope of fooling some fans.

 

[King Mapes]

Jays apparently said no to a swap of Stroman for Blackmon, so that's likely that.

That was on mlbtraderumors.com

Which they should

 

[King Mapes]

obviously, since we got more than Liriano in the deal, we could have got more than Liriano to help us win a world series in the deal.

What were they giving us to help us win a WS?

 

[Woodman19]

Eh, people like to complain about everything. I am sure at the end of the year when prospects like McGuire and Ramirez get their feet wet and look like viable options to fortify the roster going forward people will stop complaining and understand why the deal was made with a little foresight involved.

 

[The Nic]

Here is (what I assume to be) a balanced and impartial assessment of the whole Encarnacion situation... posted by Buster Olney on the ESPN site...

"Based on the premise that Toronto should have waited for Edwin Encarnacion to make his final decision, there is much lamenting among Blue Jays fans after the slugger dropped into the price range of the Cleveland Indians.

Some thoughts on that:

1. In the end, the Blue Jays’ offer to Encarnacion was far and away the highest he received. And the player said no -- with an asking price far above what Toronto wanted to pay: $125 million over five years. The Jays took a shot, and Encarnacion said no.

2. As a Plan B, the Jays pivoted quickly to designated hitter Kendrys Morales for a three-year, $33 million. Over the past two seasons, Morales compiled these numbers while playing his home games in the cavernous Royals ballpark: an .821 OPS, 52 homers, 199 RBI. That’s pretty good production from a very good hitter, and among agents and teams, Toronto’s signing of Morales at that rate is considered to be a solid move.

3. Somehow and in some way, the Blue Jays had to balance their lineup, which was extremely right-handed. Morales, a switch-hitter, will help with that. Their first choice was to keep Encarnacion and add left-handed hitting outfielders, but once they were told they weren’t close to a deal for Encarnacion, they moved on to what they believed to be the second-best set of options. They weren’t in a position to assume that Encarnacion’s market would collapse.

4. In the year-and-a-half since Mark Shapiro took over as team president, he has earned the benefit of the doubt, making some really good value moves that fit the budget he is given. By signing Marco Estrada and J.A. Happ last winter, making the trade for Francisco Liriano and benefiting from the unforeseen development of Aaron Sanchez, Toronto has one of the best rotations in the AL. Following their playoff appearance in 2015, the Jays have been able to keep the team in position to contend and simultaneously restock the farm system.

5. The question of whether the Jays’ ownership should spend more money is something asked more and more often. Some rival execs wonder why Toronto -- a team which commands the attention of an entire nation and has drawn an extraordinary following -- is not a greater financial power. The Jays ranked 10th among 30 teams in payroll last year, spending less last year than the Rangers, Angels and other teams.

But that’s not for Shapiro and GM Ross Atkins to decide. It’s their job to work with what’s presented to them."

I fully understand that Blue Jays fans are extremely unhappy right now... just not sure that they're blaming the right people.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I haven't read the entire thread, but the loss of Encarnacion is not on the Blue Jays' management or ownership. They made a fair deal, which turned out to be the best deal. They made it clear they would have to move on of Eddie refused, in order to avoid the worst case scenario of signing nobody. Encarnacion lost out on both money and location. That's his fault.

 

[teeder333*]

Buster Olney summed it up pretty well.

Here is a question for everyone. The Boston Red Sox.... Perennial go for it big spenders, are they tight around the collar, why the heck didn't they sign E.E.?

Is there something most of baseball sees amiss in E. E. ?

I could have sworn the Yankees or the Red Sox would have snapped him up. That has to be the biggest surprise for me of the offseason. Not that we didn't go hard after him but no one in our division did either.

Guess those first round draft picks had something to do with it?

 

[The Nic]

I haven't read the entire thread, but the loss of Encarnacion is not on the Blue Jays' management or ownership. They made a fair deal, which turned out to be the best deal. They made it clear they would have to move on of Eddie refused, in order to avoid the worst case scenario of signing nobody. Encarnacion lost out on both money and location. That's his fault.

Well said!

 

[zeke]

Buster Olney summed it up pretty well.

Here is a question for everyone. The Boston Red Sox.... Perennial go for it big spenders, are they tight around the collar, why the heck didn't they sign E.E.?

Is there something most of baseball sees amiss in E. E. ?

I could have sworn the Yankees or the Red Sox would have snapped him up. That has to be the biggest surprise for me of the offseason. Not that we didn't go hard after him but no one in our division did either.

Guess those first round draft picks had something to do with it?

Like I said all year - those teams are right up against the tax and had more pressing needs than adding another 1B/DH bat.

The Red Sox are already paying $40m for Hanley and Panda - it never made sense for them to go into luxury tax territory for yet another 1B/DH type.

 

[zeke]

I haven't read the entire thread, but the loss of Encarnacion is not on the Blue Jays' management or ownership. They made a fair deal, which turned out to be the best deal. They made it clear they would have to move on of Eddie refused, in order to avoid the worst case scenario of signing nobody. Encarnacion lost out on both money and location. That's his fault.

Encarnacion got his money (he'll get a $10-$15m contract at age 37 don't worry) and gets to play for a legit World Series contender. Win win for Edwin.

The Jays lose one of their best players despite being well able and willing to afford him.

Only the jays lose here.

 

[zeke]

What were they giving us to help us win a WS?

what is funny? every little bit counts in the playoffs. we could have beat cleveland if we had a couple better bench or pen options.