Salary Cap: The Hotdog Days of Summer

[Mr Jiggyfly]

No you are right. We needed a Hornqvist type player. We also needed a Neal type player. that's why we now have kessel. Kunitz should have been the odd man out, but I'm sure Nashville valued Nea more.

The ideal situation was that we had both. That would have been nice.

Edit... Penguinator beat me to it.

I wouldn't say they needed a Neal and Hornqvist. He and Hornqvist, while vastly different in styles, have the same weaknesses (skating, playmaking, creativity with the puck). When you factor in Neal's laziness and one dimensional game, it would have spelled trouble agt playoff style teams.

They have always needed a Hornqvist type player that causes havoc in front of the net and a Kessel-lite, that can skate and generate offense for both himself and Crosby/Malkin.

 

[CrosbytoKessel]

Anyone hear anything about how people have been training this offseason? Would be interesting to know who's hitting it hard this offseason.

 

[Pancakes]

I think it all comes down to what Armstrong, a good-natured guy by all accounts and someone who knows how to get along in a room, said about Kessel:



http://www.sportsnet.ca/590/prime-time-sports/how-do-teammates-perceive-phil-kessel/

Kessel's a helluva talent. But he's not a leader type, he's not good with the media, and he's not a guy to do dirty work in the trenches when the going gets tough.

Generally speaking, a lot of that stuff is reasonably expected of a guy getting franchise money. Pittsburgh might be the one place where Kessel can get by without the burden of those expectations.

We saw firsthand the criticism that a guy like Neal got for not battling in the trenches like this board wanted, despite being a sniper who regularly produced at a 40 goal and 80 point pace, and he was making 3 mil less per than Kessel. He didn't create on his own like Kessel, but I think the same reasoning applies.

Those comments are hilarious by Armstrong. He said the only thing Phil Kessel will do for you when the game is on the line is score a goal.

Wtf else do we want from the guy? I don't know about you all but I've seen second and third efforts from the Penguins. Know what I haven't seen enough of? Goals. I don't care if Phil is soft in the corners. If the guy scores big goals (and he does, and he will) THAT is what we need more than anything.

 

[mpp9]

Do you see how this argument translates to why Kessel caught so much heat in Toronto?

Neal scored at a 40 goal/80 point pace every year for 5 mil per. That is absolutely worth the money, and his size is irrelevant - as is the fact that he was our highest paid winger. It isn't Neals' fault that he was our highest paid winger any more than it was Kessel's that he was the Leafs' highest paid player. But they were both criticized because of what they didn't do with the responsibility that their status suggested.

I don't care about Toronto's situation. Mario Lemieux wouldn't have changed them not being a playoff team last year.

James Neal should not be your team's best winger. Period. He doesn't use his size. Isn't a great skater. And he's not creative.

Kessel can get away with not being great along the boards or around the net b/c he's far more dangerous with his speed and creativity. He's a proven ppg player without an elite center.

Why is this even an argument? **** James Neal. He's gone. move on. Kessel and Neal aren't remotely similar players aside from having great shots.

 

[Pete Gas]

I don't care about Toronto's situation. Mario Lemieux wouldn't have changed them not being a playoff team last year.

James Neal should not be your team's best winger. Period. He doesn't use his size. Isn't a great skater. And he's not creative.

Kessel can get away with not being great along the boards or around the net b/c he's far more dangerous with his speed and creativity. He's a proven ppg player without an elite center.

Why is this even an argument? **** James Neal. He's gone. move on. Kessel and Neal aren't remotely similar players aside from having great shots.

Seconded

 

[billybudd]

Neal's habit of bolting for the far blueline expecting a breakaway when the defender was forced to his backhand and surrounded by 2-3 players on the other team bothered me a lot more than his boardwork. I know Dan wanted his players to stretch the neutral zone, but you have to identify whether or not the D is in a position to make a breakout pass before you go basket-hang and Neal skipped step 1. If he'd have even stood by the other team's D, Ovi-style, I might have been okay with it, but too often he blew a read on a zone exit, then parked at the far blueline and watched us get cycled to death 4 on 5.

 

[cajal]

I don't care about Toronto's situation. Mario Lemieux wouldn't have changed them not being a playoff team last year.

James Neal should not be your team's best winger. Period. He doesn't use his size. Isn't a great skater. And he's not creative.

Kessel can get away with not being great along the boards or around the net b/c he's far more dangerous with his speed and creativity. He's a proven ppg player without an elite center.

Why is this even an argument? **** James Neal. He's gone. move on. Kessel and Neal aren't remotely similar players aside from having great shots.

Edit: didn't read the entire thread, my bad.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Those comments are hilarious by Armstrong. He said the only thing Phil Kessel will do for you when the game is on the line is score a goal.

Wtf else do we want from the guy? I don't know about you all but I've seen second and third efforts from the Penguins. Know what I haven't seen enough of? Goals. I don't care if Phil is soft in the corners. If the guy scores big goals (and he does, and he will) THAT is what we need more than anything.

We have the benefit of Crosby and Malkin as our franchise players. Kessel is not the same calibre of player even though he was paid like one.

All signs point to Kessel being able to thrive here, and it was a great trade for us. But it's easy to see why he'd get criticized in a city where he's expected to be the man. What they expected from him was to be able to contribute something beyond production, and he can't.

I don't care about Toronto's situation. Mario Lemieux wouldn't have changed them not being a playoff team last year.

Well that's what we were talking about - Kessel being criticized in Toronto.

James Neal should not be your team's best winger. Period. He doesn't use his size. Isn't a great skater. And he's not creative.

Kessel can get away with not being great along the boards or around the net b/c he's far more dangerous with his speed and creativity. He's a proven ppg player without an elite center.

Except he couldn't in Toronto, which is the whole point. He was paid like a franchise player and couldn't bring everything that franchise players are expected to do.

Why is this even an argument? **** James Neal. He's gone. move on. Kessel and Neal aren't remotely similar players aside from having great shots.

The situations for Kessel and Neal are analogous in certain ways. Both were productive players who didn't deliver what their teams expected outside of production, and both took an inordinate amount of criticism because of it.

 

[eXile59]

Neal was a great performer while here. He was moved because someone in upper management didn't like him.

That said he is not the caliber of player Kessel is.

 

[SprootsMasterFlex]

Anyone hear anything about how people have been training this offseason? Would be interesting to know who's hitting it hard this offseason.

http://sportstalk.triblive.com/download/710PENS15.mp3

 

[Jacob]

It's too bad Neal couldn't combine the two-way power-forward style he had Dallas with the wait-in-the-weeds trigger man he became here. He'd probably be one of the top 10 wings in the game. Kinda like Heatley, he was such a complete player early in his career and then he became a goal scorer that couldn't do anything else.

Kunitz is in the same boat. It's like goal scoring goes to their heads.

 

[Trepanated]

Those comments are hilarious by Armstrong. He said the only thing Phil Kessel will do for you when the game is on the line is score a goal.

Wtf else do we want from the guy? I don't know about you all but I've seen second and third efforts from the Penguins. Know what I haven't seen enough of? Goals. I don't care if Phil is soft in the corners. If the guy scores big goals (and he does, and he will) THAT is what we need more than anything.

Would it kill him to bestow a humorous nickname on a teammate once in awhile? I know that's what I look for when the game is on the line.

 

[hooverdam]

We have the benefit of Crosby and Malkin as our franchise players. Kessel is not the same calibre of player even though he was paid like one.

All signs point to Kessel being able to thrive here, and it was a great trade for us. But it's easy to see why he'd get criticized in a city where he's expected to be the man. What they expected from him was to be able to contribute something beyond production, and he can't.



Well that's what we were talking about - Kessel being criticized in Toronto.



Except he couldn't in Toronto, which is the whole point. He was paid like a franchise player and couldn't bring everything that franchise players are expected to do.



The situations for Kessel and Neal are analogous in certain ways. Both were productive players who didn't deliver what their teams expected outside of production, and both took an inordinate amount of criticism because of it.

They're really not that analogous, though. Neal's production dried up in his last playoffs here, never mind pace; he didn't contribute offensively the way he was expected and paid to. And Neal wasn't even expected to contribute the most, the way Kessel was in his situation.

I'd argue that Kessel met playoffs expectations way better than Neal did, under more pressure and with worse linemates. Neal benefited from the second best player in the world and still couldn't cut it when it mattered; Kessel did everything he possibly could against Boston while carrying Bozak on his back.

In any case, I don't think Neal was traded just for failing to produce in the playoffs or not being what we needed, I think he was traded for things that would get me banned from this forum for talking about. But you're misrepresenting his failure to meet expectations here, as if people were asking him to be something he's incapable of being, and that's bogus.

And I couldn't give a crap what Colby Armstrong, a paid employee of the media that has been taking dump after dump on Kessel for weeks, has to say about him as a teammate. Armstrong is working to fill a media narrative too, so I don't know where his credibility comes from. Armstrong spent the trade deadline whining on Sportsnet about how the Penguins traded him and he couldn't believe they would trade Crosby's best friend. He's not exactly a rock solid, unbiased perspective.

 

[catnip]

I thought Neal was OK for a second-line winger.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

They're really not that analogous, though. Neal's production dried up in his last playoffs here

The few Neal supporters left love to gloss over this reality.

Bottom line is Neal had 4 points in his last 17 playoff games as a Pen and two goals. Two goals. Just two.

He was essentially useless if he wasn't scoring and he had two goals in his last 17 playoff games as a Pen. Yet we see qualifiers like "when he had Malkin/Crosby and everything was just setup to be peachy for him... robble robble".

Well he had those two and potted two goals in his last 17 playoff games, in case I didn't mention that point.

You don't need to make up silly qualifiers to pretend Kessel is a productive playoff performer.

 

[HMPens]

Anyone hear anything about how people have been training this offseason? Would be interesting to know who's hitting it hard this offseason.

If you follow jonchaimberg and apcgym on Intagram where Kris Letang trains in the offseason in Montreal, there are videos and pictures of him working out. He looks to be doing his regular, rigorous training. Ironically, There was a picture of Letang and Mike Kadar from a couple of weeks ago.

 

[Mischa]

I thought Neal was OK for a second-line winger.

where can we get a couple of those 40 goal 2nd line wingers?

 

[pistolpete11]

I think I read on here someone say Kessel is Pat Kane if Pat Kane was on a ****** team.

 

[Jacob]

I think I read on here someone say Kessel is Pat Kane if Pat Kane was on a ****** team.

It was me, what of it.

 

[blazinblair]

How about a Scuderi for Bickell trade? Pens gain a little more on the cap but also get a winger for more depth. They also get rid of Scuderi . Each contract has two years left.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

The bottom line is that Toronto had a huge hole. A hole that could only be filled with wiffle ball and hangman. When the season was on the line, Kessel blew them off to play angry birds and eat tubular meat products. Way to tank the team, Mustache Boy

 

[iFishyHD]

I think I read on here someone say Kessel is Pat Kane if Pat Kane was on a ****** team.

Thats not totally far off. I have seen way worse comparisons thrown out.

 

[blazinblair]

Can someone post my trade proposal to the trade board? I'm brand new here but I think it works for both teams pretty well . Good old fashioned hockey trade. I'm curious to see how everyone feels about it? thank you in advance.

 

[iFishyHD]

If Scuderi was down to go to Arizona (unlikely) I think there is a certain 4C who is stellar on faceoffs who played for us. Can't remember his name though.

 

[billybudd]

Can someone post my trade proposal to the trade board? I'm brand new here but I think it works for both teams pretty well . Good old fashioned hockey trade. I'm curious to see how everyone feels about it? thank you in advance.

Response you're going to get is that the Hawks can't fit Scuderi under their cap even if they wanted him. They need to figure out a way to drop Bickell without taking a meaningful amount of salary back. Scuds for Bickell is not that sort of trade. They can't even sign Kruger with the space they have.

If everybody on the Hawks hits their bonuses, they're over by a whopping $8 million.