Salary Cap: The Hotdog Days of Summer

[SuburbanRhythm]

Are we resigned to Sutter being here? Currently the only RS center. Wouldn't mind looking for a RS for the 4th line spot. Lapierre had a couple beast games on the dot last year.

 

[SuburbanRhythm]

Colligan wrote one too

The analysis coming out about Kessel playing with Malkin seems incredibly shallow:

Because Malkin previously had success with Neal and because Crosby has never played with a goal-scorer like Kessel or Neal, Malkin is the best fit.

There are some hidden gems in some of the analysis, but most of it is ******** reasoning.

At least have some thought placed in them. The majority of the local talk (maybe this belongs in the media thread) are all saying Malkin - Hornqvist didn't work, when the underlying numbers were better 71-72 than 87-72, although in a smaller sample.

 

[Jacob]

I think Malkin is the better fit because he's the better puck distributer and Crosby has a history of forcing passes even to much worse players than Kessel. Malkin's best goal scoring season came the same year he had the best trigger-man he's ever had. He can utilize a shooter and not only make them a better player but exploit them for his own benefit.

That plus Hornqvist & Crosby already have chemistry and Malkin & Hornqvist do not (yet, and maybe never will).

 

[drpepper]

Are we resigned to Sutter being here? Currently the only RS center. Wouldn't mind looking for a RS for the 4th line spot. Lapierre had a couple beast games on the dot last year.

Quotes from Pittsburgh media (Yohe, Mackey) suggest that the Pens tried shopping Sutter, but that the returns were not good enough. This is not surprising as there seems to be very little demand for 3Cs and some FAs still available.

Rutherford also seems resigned to moving forward with the current roster. Minor tweaks - signing a 4C, getting a back-up goalie - may be possible if they are cheap, but I don't think he's making any major trades (Sutter, Kunitz, Scuderi).

 

[drpepper]

At least have some thought placed in them. The majority of the local talk (maybe this belongs in the media thread) are all saying Malkin - Hornqvist didn't work, when the underlying numbers were better 71-72 than 87-72, although in a smaller sample.

The underlying numbers say nothing about 71-72. Using a 200 min sample size and ignoring the goals against for that line makes those analyses equally bad.

Hornqvist and Malkin looked bad together particularly in the neutral zone and defensive zone. Their styles also clash horribly in the offensive zone.

 

[Jacob]

Yeah, this is why I don't like advanced stats. All you needed to do was just watch them play together. It didn't work. Hornqvist kept crashing the net and Malkin kept looking for someone to dish to, and ended up losing it or skating it into the corner and then losing it.

 

[Coastal Kev]

The way this roster looks as of right now, I like the look of a Kunitz-Sutter-Dupuis line. Even though Kunitz and Dupuis have declined and are being paid as luxuries, there is a fair bit of skill and two-way play on that line, and they're no longer burdened with the pace of a 1st line. Sutter's effectiveness probably goes up a fair bit. Maybe I'm too far removed from seeing actual games, but I might be able to live with that. For now. In early July.

That line is two parts laissez faire and one part a player who should be gardening rather than playing hockey. Color me not impressed.

And if you believe Kuni or Duper won't be in the top six within 2 weeks....

 

[pistolpete11]

I think Malkin is the better fit because he's the better puck distributer and Crosby has a history of forcing passes even to much worse players than Kessel. Malkin's best goal scoring season came the same year he had the best trigger-man he's ever had. He can utilize a shooter and not only make them a better player but exploit them for his own benefit.

That plus Hornqvist & Crosby already have chemistry and Malkin & Hornqvist do not (yet, and maybe never will).

Kessel and Neal are both great goal scorers with great shots, but they are different styles. I’m not saying it won’t work, but we won’t know until they play together. Chemistry is a weird thing. Just because Malkin-Neal worked so well doesn’t mean Malkin-Kessel will.

I know Malkin and Hornqvist didn’t produce much together, but if you put a guy with some skill (Perron) on the other wing, I think that would change. Malkin and Perron making plays up high while Hornqvist crashes the net is a recipe for success in my mind. We’ve seen that combination of styles work really well for Malkin in the past.

I just hope Johnston doesn’t get married to any line before the season even starts.

 

[pistolpete11]

Yeah, this is why I don't like advanced stats. All you needed to do was just watch them play together. It didn't work. Hornqvist kept crashing the net and Malkin kept looking for someone to dish to, and ended up losing it or skating it into the corner and then losing it.

That’s the problem. They had Spaling on the other wing. Put Perron there and Malkin suddenly has a guy to dish to.

I hate this idea of pairs. A line is made of 3 players and it takes them all working together to be successful.

 

[drpepper]

That’s the problem. They had Spaling on the other wing. Put Perron there and Malkin suddenly has a guy to dish to.

I hate this idea of pairs. A line is made of 3 players and it takes them all working together to be successful.

Surprisingly, I thought Spaling-Malkin looked good together compared to Malkin-Hornqvist. Spaling added some defense and was more complementary to Malkin's style in the offensive zone.

 

[bigG]

I'd rather talk about what a smart signing Stephen Weiss would be as the 4th line center. He's better than Sutter, even.

 

[pistolpete11]

Surprisingly, I thought Spaling-Malkin looked good together compared to Malkin-Hornqvist. Spaling added some defense and was more complementary to Malkin's style in the offensive zone.

I don’t think Spaling added much to the offensive zone, but again, it takes 3 guys. Perron-Malkin-Hornqvist is completely different than Spaling-Malkin-Hornqvist. The latter didn't work, but the first one might. MJ needs to experiment, though.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Yeah, this is why I don't like advanced stats. All you needed to do was just watch them play together. It didn't work. Hornqvist kept crashing the net and Malkin kept looking for someone to dish to, and ended up losing it or skating it into the corner and then losing it.

Give them a shooter like Perron and suddenly that becomes a very effective combination though. Geno and Horny will never be the duo Sid and Horny are, but lines aren't made with 2 players. I think Perron-Geno-Hornqvist can be every bit as good as Perron-Sid-Hornqvist. Hornqvist won't look as dynamic because he won't be shooting as much, but he's one of the best net front guys in the league.

 

[SEALBound]

Quotes from Pittsburgh media (Yohe, Mackey) suggest that the Pens tried shopping Sutter, but that the returns were not good enough. This is not surprising as there seems to be very little demand for 3Cs and some FAs still available.

Rutherford also seems resigned to moving forward with the current roster. Minor tweaks - signing a 4C, getting a back-up goalie - may be possible if they are cheap, but I don't think he's making any major trades (Sutter, Kunitz, Scuderi).

I would be interested to see what the proposals were for Sutter, especially from a team like Edmonton. Last year, Edmonton wanted Sutter for Perron but we said no. Now, are we getting Perron level offers from teams and turning them down or are teams low balling trying to score? Or is Sutter's value lower that what we all think (or more accurately know in our heart to be true)? There are big differences in all three.

Kunitz, Scuderi, and Sutter obviously have to go but I have money that says they are on the roster opening night which to a degree is fine. There's plenty of season to trade them. That is why I would still move forward with signing Fehr and deal with him and Sutter both in the lineup. Just gives us the flexibility to trade Sutter whenever we wish. Injuries happen all the time and it wouldn't take much to have a team's 2/3C go down and ask for Sutter. Ideally, we trade him off for picks or prospect or make a package for a Top 4 dman. I believe Kunitz should be shopped hard at the deadline. Again, picks back for him.

Perron-Sid-Horn
Plot-Geno-Phil
Fehr-Sutter-Dupuis
Kunitz-Sundqvist-Bennett

That's a deep lineup. Fehr and Sutter can switch or Sutter goes to the 4th line, whatever. We have flexibility.

Surprisingly, I thought Spaling-Malkin looked good together compared to Malkin-Hornqvist. Spaling added some defense and was more complementary to Malkin's style in the offensive zone.

I would imagine that's because Spaling is 100% focused on complimenting Geno in whatever he wants to do. Hornqvist on the other hand is going to play the game he knows how to play. Spalings going to do whatever Geno wants. That's why I believe linemates for Geno are less about overall skill and much more about fit. Plotnikov-Malkin-Kessel could be a great line in the same way Kulemin-Malkin-Neal would have been a great line in the same way Malone-Malkin-Sykora was a great line.

We shall see though.

 

[Shwag33]

Not everyone, but I still find it funny people would celebrate sutter for like a 5th round draft pick.

He's also lumped in with scuderi a lot.... it's asinine. If they could get a healthy return for him sure i'm not against it, but people act like the guy doesnt even belong on the ice and we have a replacement ready and willing to step in.

 

[penzweiser]

I would be interested to see what the proposals were for Sutter, especially from a team like Edmonton. Last year, Edmonton wanted Sutter for Perron but we said no. Now, are we getting Perron level offers from teams and turning them down or are teams low balling trying to score? Or is Sutter's value lower that what we all think (or more accurately know in our heart to be true)? There are big differences in all three.

Kunitz, Scuderi, and Sutter obviously have to go but I have money that says they are on the roster opening night which to a degree is fine. There's plenty of season to trade them. That is why I would still move forward with signing Fehr and deal with him and Sutter both in the lineup. Just gives us the flexibility to trade Sutter whenever we wish. Injuries happen all the time and it wouldn't take much to have a team's 2/3C go down and ask for Sutter. Ideally, we trade him off for picks or prospect or make a package for a Top 4 dman. I believe Kunitz should be shopped hard at the deadline. Again, picks back for him.

Perron-Sid-Horn
Plot-Geno-Phil
Fehr-Sutter-Dupuis
Kunitz-Sundqvist-Bennett

That's a deep lineup. Fehr and Sutter can switch or Sutter goes to the 4th line, whatever. We have flexibility.



I would imagine that's because Spaling is 100% focused on complimenting Geno in whatever he wants to do. Hornqvist on the other hand is going to play the game he knows how to play. Spalings going to do whatever Geno wants. That's why I believe linemates for Geno are less about overall skill and much more about fit. Plotnikov-Malkin-Kessel could be a great line in the same way Kulemin-Malkin-Neal would have been a great line in the same way Malone-Malkin-Sykora was a great line.

We shall see though.

That lineup is above the salary cap...

 

[AjaxTelamon]

Not sure how you can say that today without having seen any of those three there lately. Kunitz should be a lot better than last year. I'm not saying he should be a lock for the top 6, but I think writing him off is premature at this point.

I just prefer a player like Plots or Sundqvist stylistically with Geno better than Kunitz, and I think it's important Kunitz play on a 3rd line to get lesser matchups. I think he can have a bounce-back year too, but I think that's predicated on him playing less minutes, and playing against worse competition.

 

[Jacob]

Not everyone, but I still find it funny people would celebrate sutter for like a 5th round draft pick.

He's also lumped in with scuderi a lot.... it's asinine. If they could get a healthy return for him sure i'm not against it, but people act like the guy doesnt even belong on the ice and we have a replacement ready and willing to step in.

Yes, unlike Scuderi/Dupuis/Kunitz, Sutter is young and fairly paid and not on a severe decline. People only seem to want to dump him for a pick because he's unlikely to sign next summer. But the same was true for Paul Martin and we still held onto him, because we're trying to win a Cup, not rebuild.

 

[Riptide]

I'm quoting this again because I can't find that game (bolded portion, obviously). March 14th?

Someone said it was the game in late Jan against the Jets.

 

[Penguinzilla*]

I'm well aware of the iron deficiency story, I just don't believe it's why his level of play dropped. It seemed like a PR excuse at the time, and it still does.

He was "diagnosed" with the iron deficiency in January. As a professional athlete with multiple nutrionists and medical experts at his disposal, his iron levels should be balanced enough four months later that there would have been some noticeable improvement in his energy levels...there wasn't.

Thanks, Dr. Waffle Fries


(sorry, not trying to be a jerk but "Dr. Waffle Fries" but sounds funny to me )

 

[Fordy]

Not everyone, but I still find it funny people would celebrate sutter for like a 5th round draft pick.

He's also lumped in with scuderi a lot.... it's asinine. If they could get a healthy return for him sure i'm not against it, but people act like the guy doesnt even belong on the ice and we have a replacement ready and willing to step in.

Because he doesn't and we do

 

[Jacob]

Because he doesn't and we do

Sundqvist? The winger that's played 0 NHL games? That scored at about the same pace in Sweden as Sutter did in the NHL?

I like Sundqvist, but come on.

 

[Chili Goal]

Colligan wrote one too

The analysis coming out about Kessel playing with Malkin seems incredibly shallow:

Because Malkin previously had success with Neal and because Crosby has never played with a goal-scorer like Kessel or Neal, Malkin is the best fit.

There are some hidden gems in some of the analysis, but most of it is ******** reasoning.

agreed. Colligan is normally pretty good, but that was about the laziest article I've ever seen him produce. didn't even evaluate Sid with Kessel fit at all. it would have been better as Part 1 in a 3 part series, as this was all about Geno.

 

[Riptide]

Perron-Sid-Horn
Plot-Geno-Phil
Fehr-Sutter-Dupuis
Kunitz-Sundqvist-Bennett

That's a deep lineup. Fehr and Sutter can switch or Sutter goes to the 4th line, whatever. We have flexibility.

Except that we'll have roughly 2.7m to sign Dumoulin, Bennett and the FA. If we want to bring in anyone of any significance we need to move out some salary. The only 4 people it makes sense to look at is Sutter, Kunitz, Dupuis and Scuderi - and Dupuis is almost certainly untradeable.

 

[plaidchuck]

Don't you know whoever this board doesn't like clearly isn't an nhl player?