Player Discussion The Henrik & Daniel Sedin Discussion - Part IV | Encore for 2019?

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Just pointing out that almost everyone in Vancouver was happy to keep the Sedins around, on a bad hockey team.

From a managerial perspective, there very well could have been a proper rebuild, even if they refused to accept a trade. But we have a dimwitted GM who thought he could build a playoff team.

Well,of course everyone wanted to keep them around...3 years ago,they were still legit first line players..and Dim Jim got them in the playoffs...I would have liked to have seen the Canucks rebuild in 2015,but they didn't (or weren't allowed to..thats the $1M question).

 

[MS]

IMO they aren’t being traded because:

1. The optics would be terrible based on their standing in this city, with STH’s, and based on everything the organization has said about them not being traded;

2. No team is going to give up anything significant for 20+ games of two almost-38 year olds whose defensive game is a shambles, whose offensive game is mediocre and inconsistent, and who have played 6 playoff games since 2013 and with only 1 “deep” playoff run on their resumes.

3. Their contracts expire at the end of this season. Simply keeping them and letting them step away with dignity and retiring as lifetime Canucks is a legacy narrative that is worth more in PR gold to the owners than the acquisition of a pair of 3rd round picks or whatever minimal return they would garner.

99.9% certain they aren’t going anywhere unless they ask to be dealt.

This how how I expected things to play out, but Botchford's comment that he doesn't think they have any intention to retire is fascinating and changes things considerably if so.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Well,of course everyone wanted to keep them around...3 years ago,they were still legit first line players..and Dim Jim got them in the playoffs...I would have liked to have seen the Canucks rebuild in 2015,but they didn't (or weren't allowed to..thats the $1M question).

They didn't because Benning thought he could build on that playoff team. He was wrong. And his piss poor decisions continue to haunt this team today, and will for the next half decade at least.

 

[LickTheEnvelope]

Why would a team pick up the Sedins right now? They've been terrible this year.

 

[CanaFan]

This how how I expected things to play out, but Botchford's comment that he doesn't think they have any intention to retire is fascinating and changes things considerably if so.

Hadn’t read those comments so don’t know what the exact implication is but I’d think the best course for the organization is to let them play out their contracts here and act as if it’s their last games with the club. Behind the scenes tell them they won’t be offered another contract and that they are free to retire or sign with another team, whatever their preference.

Save face, treat them with all due dignity and respect, but for god’s sake don’t bring them back even for a 1 year “mentorship” season. This team needs badly to move on and forge a new identity sans the Sedins.

 

[Cupless44]

The Sedins ave made it clear they are not going anywhere. All this wishful thinking about finding ways to trade them is unrealistic. The only question is whether they come back net year on a reduced salary, say $2.5 M each.

No thanks. It really is time to move on with younger faster players.

 

[valkynax]

They didn't because Benning thought he could build on that playoff team. He was wrong. And his piss poor decisions continue to haunt this team today, and will for the next half decade at least.

Maybe even the full decade.

Ball's in Aquaman's court. If he decided to extend this dipshit? Not even god will help him.

 

[NoShowWilly]

this team cannot go another year with the sedins. The team mentality won't change til they are gone.

 

[VanJack]

Two of the greatest Canuck players ever, and a lock as Hall-of-Famers....just hope Daniel can match his brother's 1,000 points. But the end for great players and franchise icons is rarely smooth or unemotional. Just praying there's no repeat of the Mats Sundin saga in TO, and that the Sedins don't end up with another team as a shell of their former selves. Maybe Brian Burke would bring them back for one last playoff hurrah for the Flames..Now wouldn't that be a gut-punch for the Canuck faithful.!

 

[Paulinvancouver]

The time to move the Sedins was before that dumbass Gillis reupped them and gave them full NMCs.

...oops.

 

[Nuckles]

The time to move the Sedins was before that dumbass Gillis reupped them and gave them full NMCs.

...oops.

Right, Aquilini would have totally let his playoff team trade away their two point per game players while they didn't have anyone to replace them anytime soon.

 

[NoShowWilly]

The time to move the Sedins was before that dumbass Gillis reupped them and gave them full NMCs.

...oops.

Indeed it was but gillis' rebuild was rejected and that's done now.

 

[StreetHawk]

Right, Aquilini would have totally let his playoff team trade away their two point per game players while they didn't have anyone to replace them anytime soon.

His playoff team had be ousted in the 1st round the past 2 seasons in 2012 and 2013, winning only 1 game, both times going down 3-0 in the series. The moves made in the summer of 2013 was trading Schneider for an 18 year old Bo Horvat and changing the coaching staff. That's when they needed to take stock of the prospect pool and see: Gaunce is 19 and only expected to be a 3rd line checker. Jensen played a handful of games, so what does your coaching staff in the AHL think about him? Mallet? Please... Nothing from 2010. What about Schroeder and Kassian? What else was coming through the pipeline in 2013? No cap space unless league revenues went up.

The mistake was signing the twins in Nov 2013 instead of waiting until later in the season. I mean, in 2014, the twins would be 33/34. Played with the franchise since September 2000. They were in year 14 with the franchise. At that point, the club should know, that they have the leverage with the twins. They have built in loyalty and it was obvious that the team was prepared to pay for them, $28 million over 4 years. Should have been a wait and see what happens situation. Extending them was always an option, but they rushed into it.

If they waited, Lu demands a trade out and is moved prior to the TDL. Kesler does the same and is moved at the draft. So, if management has Kesler asking out, do they still retain the twins in 2014 or do they also move them in 2014 and go full on rebuild.

Now, as for what is happening with their ice time, perhaps finally, this coaching staff, which has no alligence to the twins, since they never performed well for this group. To quote Sam Jackson from the Winter Soldier movie: "The Canucks see the Twins for what they are, not what they want them to be." They are on pace to be 30 point players.

 

[Melvin]

His playoff team had be ousted in the 1st round the past 2 seasons in 2012 and 2013, winning only 1 game, both times going down 3-0 in the series. The moves made in the summer of 2013 was trading Schneider for an 18 year old Bo Horvat and changing the coaching staff. That's when they needed to take stock of the prospect pool and see: Gaunce is 19 and only expected to be a 3rd line checker. Jensen played a handful of games, so what does your coaching staff in the AHL think about him? Mallet? Please... Nothing from 2010. What about Schroeder and Kassian? What else was coming through the pipeline in 2013? No cap space unless league revenues went up.

The mistake was signing the twins in Nov 2013 instead of waiting until later in the season. I mean, in 2014, the twins would be 33/34. Played with the franchise since September 2000. They were in year 14 with the franchise. At that point, the club should know, that they have the leverage with the twins. They have built in loyalty and it was obvious that the team was prepared to pay for them, $28 million over 4 years. Should have been a wait and see what happens situation. Extending them was always an option, but they rushed into it.

If they waited, Lu demands a trade out and is moved prior to the TDL. Kesler does the same and is moved at the draft. So, if management has Kesler asking out, do they still retain the twins in 2014 or do they also move them in 2014 and go full on rebuild.

Now, as for what is happening with their ice time, perhaps finally, this coaching staff, which has no alligence to the twins, since they never performed well for this group. To quote Sam Jackson from the Winter Soldier movie: "The Canucks see the Twins for what they are, not what they want them to be." They are on pace to be 30 point players.

You may have a point.

It was a pretty strange circumstance. Remember, it was early in the John Tortorella season and he was riding them hard. It looked like they had found new life under a coach who leaned on them even heavier than AV did. I believe at the time of the extension, Henrik was leading the NHL in points at around the same time of season we are in now. The Canucks probably thought they had better lock them up quickly, because if they win more trophies it is going to get a little rich for their blood.

In hindsight, of course, that was the worst possible time to sign them, as the bottom then fell out. The Sedins faltered under the workload and we all remember how that season ended. Imagine it didn't though. Imagine they had kept the pace up all year and put up 90 point seasons. The Canucks would have been in the playoffs and those contracts would have been a stroke of genius.

It is fascinating to think about how different things would be today had we not hired John Tortorella.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Just pointing out that almost everyone in Vancouver was happy to keep the Sedins around, on a bad hockey team.

From a managerial perspective, there very well could have been a proper rebuild, even if they refused to accept a trade. But we have a dimwitted GM who thought he could build a playoff team.

That is complete speculation,and makes zero sense....The Sedins were still first line players...How can you do a proper rebuild with two producing 'elite' (practically franchise players) on your team?.....It would be like driving with your foot on the gas and brake at the same time.

 

[member 105785]

The time to move the Sedins was before that dumbass Gillis reupped them and gave them full NMCs.

...oops.

yeah, when the team had 2 PPG players and an ownership group that wouldn't let Gillis rebuild after he saw the writing on the wall in 2013

...oops.

 

[Hit the post]

His playoff team had be ousted in the 1st round the past 2 seasons in 2012 and 2013, winning only 1 game, both times going down 3-0 in the series.

To be fair....

2012: Daniel Sedin was on the receiving end of a Randy Macho Man flying elbow by Duncan Keith. Did manage to play in the series - though not all of it & most likely not at 100%. Kings also only lost 4 games in total that whole post-season - they steamrolled over everyone I think.

2013: Yeah we deserved to lose against a better team; but that series was also one of the worst officiating series I've seen in a long time. Sure it didn't likely effect the outcome (AGAIN, the better team advanced); but IMHO, it made the Sharks look better than they actually were (at least against us).

 

[y2kcanucks]

That is complete speculation,and makes zero sense....The Sedins were still first line players...How can you do a proper rebuild with two producing 'elite' (practically franchise players) on your team?.....It would be like driving with your foot on the gas and brake at the same time.

The Sedins have been 50 point players during the Benning regime. That's not elite. The team has also been pure garbage during the Benning regime. They had the poor standings finish, they just needed an intelligent GM to not give away draft picks and youth, not give bloated contracts to veterans, and work on acquiring more draft picks. Not that hard.

 

[StreetHawk]

To be fair....

2012: Daniel Sedin was on the receiving end of a Randy Macho Man flying elbow by Duncan Keith. Did manage to play in the series - though not all of it & most likely not at 100%. Kings also only lost 4 games in total that whole post-season - they steamrolled over everyone I think.

2013: Yeah we deserved to lose against a better team; but that series was also one of the worst officiating series I've seen in a long time. Sure it didn't likely effect the outcome (AGAIN, the better team advanced); but IMHO, it made the Sharks look better than they actually were (at least against us).

And what was their age when they signed the contracts in 2013? Drafted in 1999 with late birthdays, meaning that they were born in 1980. Making them 33 when they signed the extension. How many more prime years did they really have left in them? The end of the line was coming. So, if your current prospects didn't stack up in the summer of 2013, then you weren't going to have enough to support the twins if they did manage another 3 PPG seasons.

Again, they could have waited. Where were the twins going to go? 2 guys with a combined cap hit of $14 million. How many teams that are close to winning the cup would have that kind of cap space in 2014? Canucks already committed $6.1 million each to them. So, they only needed to fin $900K of cap space over what they were already paying. Other teams would have to make room to fit the twins in.

 

[Melvin]

And what was their age when they signed the contracts in 2013? Drafted in 1999 with late birthdays, meaning that they were born in 1980. Making them 33 when they signed the extension. How many more prime years did they really have left in them? The end of the line was coming. So, if your current prospects didn't stack up in the summer of 2013, then you weren't going to have enough to support the twins if they did manage another 3 PPG seasons.

Again, they could have waited. Where were the twins going to go? 2 guys with a combined cap hit of $14 million. How many teams that are close to winning the cup would have that kind of cap space in 2014? Canucks already committed $6.1 million each to them. So, they only needed to fin $900K of cap space over what they were already paying. Other teams would have to make room to fit the twins in.

At the time of the extension Henrik Sedin had 20 points in 17 games. He was leading the nhl I am pretty sure, and Daniel was certainly right behind.

Obviously in hindsight it was the wrong call, but I see what they were trying to do. It's easy to call that a bad decision now, but I don't remember anyone being upset at the time.

And it hasn't even really hurt us to be honest. Didn't prevent us from throwing, 6m at Ryan Miller and Loui Eriksson. Sucks that things are ending the way they appear to be but their contracts haven't really been the problem.

 

[Hit the post]

At the time of the extension Henrik Sedin had 20 points in 17 games. He was leading the nhl I am pretty sure, and Daniel was certainly right behind.

Obviously in hindsight it was the wrong call, but I see what they were trying to do. It's easy to call that a bad decision now, but I don't remember anyone being upset at the time.

And it hasn't even really hurt us to be honest. Didn't prevent us from throwing, 6m at Ryan Miller and Loui Eriksson. Sucks that things are ending the way they appear to be but their contracts haven't really been the problem.

BOTH of them also were in the top ten in points for the 2014-15 season. Then they fell off the cliff.

I won't deny the contracts are a problem but it's hardly an obstacle that can't be overcome. It just means the margin of error for a GM is MUCH smaller (ie., can't handle bad mistakes like Eriksson type deals).

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The Sedins have been 50 point players during the Benning regime. That's not elite. The team has also been pure garbage during the Benning regime. They had the poor standings finish, they just needed an intelligent GM to not give away draft picks and youth, not give bloated contracts to veterans, and work on acquiring more draft picks. Not that hard.

The team was pure garbage before Benning got here..Or did you miss that.?...The outgoing coach even brought it up in the season ending presser (pretty much telling the intelligent GM at the time, he needed younger players to compete,but the intelligent GM at the time signed some veteran twins to some binding bloated contracts instead).

 

[vancityluongo]

Is Henrik Sedin currently a worse player than Sam Gagner? Is Daniel worse than Eriksson?

The Sedins are certainly on the downswing, and Green's usage of them hasn't been totally unfair... but it would be disgusting if they were pushed out for not contributing while Eriksson and Gagner keep roster spots next season. Not to mention the Sedins would be cheaper than those two if they were to re-sign...

 

[member 105785]

The team was pure garbage before Benning got here..Or did you miss that.?...The outgoing coach even brought it up in the season ending presser (pretty much telling the intelligent GM at the time, he needed younger players to compete,but the intelligent GM at the time signed some veteran twins to some binding bloated contracts instead).

The Canucks got to the finals in 2011, the Canucks won the presidents trophy in 2012, the Canucks fired AV in 2013 (who I assume you're talking about), with the team so recently a cup favourite 2 years in a row, why would the Canucks ditch their elite PPG forwards? If AV did say that, he would have been looking for young players on their ELC to surround the twins with, not take over for them at the age of 18. While some blame can be placed on Gillis trying to put the Canucks over the top from 2009-2012, our scouting was horrifying for 2 decades.

 

[Melvin]

The Canucks got to the finals in 2011, the Canucks won the presidents trophy in 2012, the Canucks fired AV in 2013 (who I assume you're talking about), with the team so recently a cup favourite 2 years in a row, why would the Canucks ditch their elite PPG forwards? If AV did say that, he would have been looking for young players on their ELC to surround the twins with, not take over for them at the age of 18. While some blame can be placed on Gillis trying to put the Canucks over the top from 2009-2012, our scouting was horrifying for 2 decades.

He was talking about Torts.

Here on Earth, the actual events that occurred after Torts made those comments was that Gillis was sacked, and the new GM addressed this need for younger players by throwing 30M at Ryan Miller and Radim Vrbata.

The Sedins of course had already been signed to their current contracts some 9 months prior. At least, here in reality. In Benningville, where facts are indistinguishable from supposition, who knows.