THE Fire Torts Thread

[Crede777]

Thanks for taking the time for the in-depth response. I can buy the basic premise of your description of Torts offensive approach; I just wonder how committed he is to it.

I agree with your comments about player positioning on the PP which ties to my questions about Torts talent untilization. The PP scenario is one. Another ties to the transition game which is much about speed. If that's the offense you believe in, relying on Dubi, Jenner and Foligno to carry much of the forward load seems at odds with the needs of the transition game.

If the transition game is the offense Torts is committed to, then I'm on board. But not withnthe players he is rolling out the ice. Maybe that's a problem with his use of his current roster; maybe it's a roster problem.

I agree with you about how players are being utilized. A month or so ago when I said that I thought Anderson would revert next season to being a ~20 goal 2nd/3rd line winger it was because of how Tortorella and Jarmo treat players. Anderson has actually "reverted" more quickly than I had anticipated.

Tortorella and Jarmo are VERY confident about their evaluations of players. So much so that they will force the players into roles that they have envisioned for them. In this way, the player's production only really affects how that player is utilized on a very short term basis. That is, if a player is playing well he'll get more ice time during that game or maybe the next. But over the course of weeks or months, it's the organizational (coach and management) view of what a player is and should be which dictates how that player is being used by the Jackets. The players themselves have little say in the matter.

William Karlsson is another easy example, although nobody (inside and outside the org) would have thought that he'd put up as many goals as he is this season.

One concern I have about the team is the lack of pushback from the players themselves. Especially the younger players. Maybe it's because any sort of dissent is a quick road to the chopping block. But really the only player to have any sort of response to a poor showing or misuse is Artemi Panarin. Maybe that's because he's just so talented that it doesn't matter how he's being used. Or maybe it's because he's one of the select few (Panarin, Werenski, Jones, Bobrovsky) who has the full trust of the coach and management.

But guys like Wennberg, Anderson, Jenner, Bjorkstrand, and Milano have really just taken their beatings and not responded one way or another. This is particularly alarming for players like Jenner and Anderson who are viewed as leaders and are viewed as being fighters (both literally and figuratively). I wanna see some push back from these guys against the opposition and against Torts. I want them to play angry. But really they just seem to go through the motions.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Count me in. I thought at the beginning of the season a playoff series win was the only way he would keep his job. But if we keep playing the way we have the past 21 games (7 wins and 14 losses, 3 of them OT) we might not even be in the postseason. We should try and get a bigger name to come coach us during the offseason.

 

[Theo Von]

Jackets ETA arriving back at NWA after tonight’s loss is: 11:45.

I say we go down to where the bus rolls in and start a protest. leggo!

 

[GoJackets1]

I think it's time.

 

[EdwardG]

You do wonder how much longer this goes on before Torts gets canned. I know some think he's here through the year but if this goes on another week or two it's hard to see Torts surviving.

 

[Theo Von]

You do wonder how much longer this goes on before Torts gets canned. I know some think he's here through the year but if this goes on another week or two it's hard to see Torts surviving.

I really wouldn’t mind seeing Shaw take the team over and see what kind of coaching he brings as the overall head coach. After all, him becoming a head coach in the NHL sooner than later is inevitable.

 

[EdwardG]

I really wouldn’t mind seeing Shaw take the team over and see what kind of coaching he brings as the overall head coach. After all, him becoming a head coach in the NHL sooner than later is inevitable.

I think if they keep Torts there's no chance at the playoffs. With a new coach maybe you get that new coach bounce. Guess it depends on whether they want a high(er) pick this year. I think they have about 0 chance of going anywhere even if they do get in the playoffs.

 

[Maylo]

You do wonder how much longer this goes on before Torts gets canned. I know some think he's here through the year but if this goes on another week or two it's hard to see Torts surviving.

Philly lost 10 in row early this season, and noone got canned. "Youngest team and growing pains" blah blah.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I really wouldn’t mind seeing Shaw take the team over and see what kind of coaching he brings as the overall head coach. After all, him becoming a head coach in the NHL sooner than later is inevitable.

Not really. Some guys are assistant coaches.

Shaw was a very mediocre minor league head coach and other than his interim stint with the Isanders 12 years ago, has been an assistant.

If he gets the job if Torts is canned, I'll bet it's just interim for the remainder of the season.

While Torts is a dinosaur whose time has passed, he's been dealt a very weak hand by his GM and Team President who seem to escape the blamometer on this board. The forward core with a few exceptions is pathetic. Other than PLD, Anderson and Bjorkstand, the rest of the younger talent isn't much. Even these three aren't going to automatically have highly productive careers.

Jarmo gave up a #1C to get Jones. While Jones is very good, he came at great cost. Teams in the NHL generally don't succeed without a #1C.

Werenski was a good pick. Obviously. Nutivaara may prove to be a capable second pairing guy. So on the backline, Jarmo hasn't been all that bad. On the offensive side, his record with forwards he has signed to long term deals, Horton/Clarkson, Dubinksy, Foligno, Wennberg and Atkinson is to put it mildly, bad. The only forward he has signed long term who hasn't performed beneath reasonable expectations was Saad-although Hawks fans would probably disagree. I'm only counting his time in Columbus.

The farm system doesn't appear to have a single NHL caliber forward. That's 5 years deep into this GM's tenure.

Jarmo is going to have to fire Torts. If he doesn't, he's saying that the team he has assembled isn't of playoff quality. And as detached from the team as the younger McConnell appears to be to me, I doubt that he'll even sign off on that. I think firing Torts buys Jarmo more time and that's too bad if true.

The whole management teams needs to go. 5 years of Jarmo and 6 of JD and not a single playoff series win. The near term prospects for the team look poor. The JD/Jarmo era could only be considered a success by a fan base which views mediocrity as acceptable. Why in the world would anyone want to see the Scout and the Broadcaster guide a rebuild or a retool?

 

[Maylo]

Not really. Some guys are assistant coaches.

Shaw was a very mediocre minor league head coach and other than his interim stint with the Isanders 12 years ago, has been an assistant.

With STL there wasn't much success either, until Hitch came in.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

With STL there wasn't much success either, until Hitch came in.

Good point.

Plus Shaw has to have something to do with the PK and/or PP. If he has wanted to make changes and can't get Torts to buy in, then that doesn't say much about him.

 

[Maylo]

Good point.

Plus Shaw has to have something to do with the PK and/or PP. If he has wanted to make changes and can't get Torts to buy in, then that doesn't say much about him.

Btw what is "President of hockey operations" job? Has he any responsibilty the way this team is built? Or it's all GM?

 

[hardkorejackets]

I personally don't see us firing Tortorella in the next week or two. But, if the struggles keep continuing- I could see Torts getting canned in the off-season.

Also, think we might need to take a look into Jarmo's performance as well ultimately. This is the 2nd time in the last 3 years that they have "over-estimated" our team as constructed. I believe that they have also tried too hard in creating roster spaces for our prospects as well, some of which have not panned out/weren't ready. Also, our prospect depth is also rather lacking as well.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

I agree with you about how players are being utilized. A month or so ago when I said that I thought Anderson would revert next season to being a ~20 goal 2nd/3rd line winger it was because of how Tortorella and Jarmo treat players. Anderson has actually "reverted" more quickly than I had anticipated.

Tortorella and Jarmo are VERY confident about their evaluations of players. So much so that they will force the players into roles that they have envisioned for them. In this way, the player's production only really affects how that player is utilized on a very short term basis. That is, if a player is playing well he'll get more ice time during that game or maybe the next. But over the course of weeks or months, it's the organizational (coach and management) view of what a player is and should be which dictates how that player is being used by the Jackets. The players themselves have little say in the matter.

William Karlsson is another easy example, although nobody (inside and outside the org) would have thought that he'd put up as many goals as he is this season.

One concern I have about the team is the lack of pushback from the players themselves. Especially the younger players. Maybe it's because any sort of dissent is a quick road to the chopping block. But really the only player to have any sort of response to a poor showing or misuse is Artemi Panarin. Maybe that's because he's just so talented that it doesn't matter how he's being used. Or maybe it's because he's one of the select few (Panarin, Werenski, Jones, Bobrovsky) who has the full trust of the coach and management.

But guys like Wennberg, Anderson, Jenner, Bjorkstrand, and Milano have really just taken their beatings and not responded one way or another. This is particularly alarming for players like Jenner and Anderson who are viewed as leaders and are viewed as being fighters (both literally and figuratively). I wanna see some push back from these guys against the opposition and against Torts. I want them to play angry. But really they just seem to go through the motions.

Just to add on, I think the lack of pushback is something really concerning. It's not just select guys, its the whole roster. When the other team starts playing well, they don't manage the storm or hang in there, they fold. Like they know they're going to get scored on. They have zero resiliency or ability to change the momentum when it works against them. When Torts was hired, this was also a big problem under Richards, and he said he was surprised at how mentally fragile the team was. I mean, we all remember how bad we choked away opening night against the Rangers in 2015-16, and how it became a runaway train after that. This team is only slightly better at managing adversity. Which is surprising, because this is largely the same team as last year, and they were pretty damn good at managing momentum swings.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Btw what is "President of hockey operations" job? Has he any responsibilty the way this team is built? Or it's all GM?

The equivalent of a CEO.

Jarmo is the equivalent of a COO (Chief Operating Officer) who reports directly to the CEO (JD). Like any other CEO, JD is directly responsible for the performance of his underlings.

JD was given the boot in STL and deserves the same here. Unlike an Yzerman who learned the craft of running a hockey operation from the bottom up (different position, I know), JD went from 20+ years as a talking head to being in charge of an NHL team. He never paid his dues and it shows.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Just to add on, I think the lack of pushback is something really concerning. It's not just select guys, its the whole roster. When the other team starts playing well, they don't manage the storm or hang in there, they fold. Like they know they're going to get scored on. They have zero resiliency or ability to change the momentum when it works against them. When Torts was hired, this was also a big problem under Richards, and he said he was surprised at how mentally fragile the team was. I mean, we all remember how bad we choked away opening night against the Rangers in 2015-16, and how it became a runaway train after that. This team is only slightly better at managing adversity. Which is surprising, because this is largely the same team as last year, and they were pretty damn good at managing momentum swings.

I doubt that ability to manage adversity is materially different. The diminished performances of Dubinsky, Folingo, Wennberg, Atkinson, JJ and Savard have just made this team a below average overall talent NHL squad.

But if Murray were healthy, it wouldn't matter. I 've seen scientific studies on this very board which suggest that he's worth over 1 goal differential per game. LOL

 

[Mayor Bee]

I doubt that ability to manage adversity is materially different. The diminished performances of Dubinsky, Folingo, Wennberg, Atkinson, JJ and Savard have just made this team a below average overall talent NHL squad.

But if Murray were healthy, it wouldn't matter. I 've seen scientific studies on this very board which suggest that he's worth over 1 goal differential per game. LOL

Here's a scientific study from this year, which shows where shots have come from relative to league average. Shades of red are more shots against than average, shades of blue are less.

And for fun, let's add the dreadful PK. Purple are more shots against than average, green are less.

So with Murray on the ice, a lot of high-danger shots are completely eliminated on his side of the ice. The perimeter and the point are one thing, but the high-danger shots are simply not there with him on the ice.

Compare that to when quite literally every other defenseman is on the ice, and how big of a spike in high-danger shots there are.

This affects the entire team. Forwards play passively, knowing that a turnover or a missed shot may lead to a scoring chance going the other way.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Here's a scientific study from this year, which shows where shots have come from relative to league average. Shades of red are more shots against than average, shades of blue are less.

And for fun, let's add the dreadful PK. Purple are more shots against than average, green are less.

So with Murray on the ice, a lot of high-danger shots are completely eliminated on his side of the ice. The perimeter and the point are one thing, but the high-danger shots are simply not there with him on the ice.

Compare that to when quite literally every other defenseman is on the ice, and how big of a spike in high-danger shots there are.

This affects the entire team. Forwards play passively, knowing that a turnover or a missed shot may lead to a scoring chance going the other way.

Show me some GA/60 5vs 5 and PK stats with him. 46 minutes worth of one quantity is irrelevant info and the other chart is a 1 to 6 ratio (in time) which leaves itself open to a lot of other factors. Quantify those charts you showed if you want to give them any real meaning. But even if you do, there are other factors than Murray involved with them.

The notion that Murray is worth a goal per game to the CBJ-as your simplistic repeated trolling postings infer-is absurd.

Ryan Murray has averaged less than 18 minutes TOI in his last 84 games spanning the past two seasons. His usage has been slightly below that of an average second pairing dman in TOI. His impact upon the team's overall performance has been minimal.

The notion that forwards' play is even moderately impacted by Murray's presence or absence is silly.

 

[Crede777]

It's not even the play though. They limited Washington in shots and managed almost double themselves. It's just conversion.

I'm tired of 30 shots and 1 goal. Not every goalie is Dominek Hasek. They should be scoring about 1 in 12 shots.

 

[Mayor Bee]

Show me some GA/60 5vs 5 and PK stats with him. 46 minutes worth of one quantity is irrelevant info and the other chart is a 1 to 6 ratio (in time) which leaves itself open to a lot of other factors. Quantify those charts you showed if you want to give them any real meaning. But even if you do, there are other factors than Murray involved with them.

Murray has been on the ice for 4 PP goals against this year, in roughly 46 minutes of PK time. That's 1 goal against per 11:30 of pK time.

The rest of the team has allowed 35 PP goals against, meaning that there are 31 that Murray was not on the ice for. At 31 goals against in 162 minutes of non-Murray time, that's one goal against every 5:14 of PK time.

Murray has been on the ice for 15 goals for and 8 goals against at even strength in 354 even strength minutes. That's 2.54 GF/60, and 1.36 GA/60.

The rest of the team has scored 98 even strength goals and allowed 104 without Murray in roughly 2,127 even strength minutes. That's 2.76 GF/60 and 2.93 GA/60.

The notion that Murray is worth a goal per game to the CBJ-as your simplistic repeated trolling postings infer-is absurd.

Based off of the numbers above, it looks more like he's worth 1.35 goals per game this season. So I guess I've actually been understating his impact this whole time! Don't worry, I'll make sure to correct it in the future.

Ryan Murray has averaged less than 18 minutes TOI in his last 84 games spanning the past two seasons. His usage has been slightly below that of an average second pairing dman in TOI. His impact upon the team's overall performance has been minimal.

Everyone has been pulling their hair out over the fact that the team is barely over .500 since the end of the streak last year. They're 9 games over .500 with Murray, and 5 games under .500 without him. The team scores at a lower rate and allows goals at a much higher rate without him.

The notion that forwards' play is even moderately impacted by Murray's presence or absence is silly.

Now who's oversimplifying things?

This is a repeat of what we saw when Steve Mason was in net all those years ago. When the guys on the ice, particularly the forwards, don't have any confidence in what's behind them, they play passively and prepare to bail out of the offensive zone the instant that possession is lost for even a split-second. We've spent the last 30 games questioning why it is that there's no sustained pressure in the offensive zone, while overlooking the obvious factor: with certain defensemen, namely Johnson and Savard, on the ice there's no confidence that the puck will stay out of the team's own net.

Do defensemen on the ice actually communicate to the forwards who is on the ice behind them? Have you ever been to a game and heard "58 on the ice!" or "Johnson's on!" or "Here comes the Nutivaara train!"?

 

[Mayor Bee]

Show me some GA/60 5vs 5 and PK stats with him. 46 minutes worth of one quantity is irrelevant info and the other chart is a 1 to 6 ratio (in time) which leaves itself open to a lot of other factors. Quantify those charts you showed if you want to give them any real meaning. But even if you do, there are other factors than Murray involved with them.

Oh, here are the other left defensemen.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

We need a hire Torts thread

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Based off of the numbers above, it looks more like he's worth 1.35 goals per game this season. So I guess I've actually been understating his impact this whole time! Don't worry, I'll make sure to correct it in the future.

This is a repeat of what we saw when Steve Mason was in net all those years ago. When the guys on the ice, particularly the forwards, don't have any confidence in what's behind them, they play passively and prepare to bail out of the offensive zone the instant that possession is lost for even a split-second. We've spent the last 30 games questioning why it is that there's no sustained pressure in the offensive zone, while overlooking the obvious factor: with certain defensemen, namely Johnson and Savard, on the ice there's no confidence that the puck will stay out of the team's own net.

The notion that Murray is worth 1.35+ goals differential is preposterous. You know it. I know it. The Pope might even know it. Any "analysis" which purports to show this (Ryan Murray a 115-120 goals differential positive) isn't worthy of dissection. It's an automatic throw out. Your show lots of charts. You don't break them down to make them useful.

The idea that the forwards collective confidence dropping which significantly alters their play due to Murray's absence is laughable.

If what you claim is true, Ryan Murray should be THE most sought after defensemen in the NHL. He would be lucky to garner a second round pick and a mid tier prospect in the trade market. Which is pretty low return for a guy who makes over a 100 goal difference. LOL

 

[Mayor Bee]

The notion that Murray is worth 1.35+ goals differential is preposterous. You know it. I know it. The Pope might even know it. Any "analysis" which purports to show this (Ryan Murray a 115-120 goals differential positive) isn't worthy of dissection. It's an automatic throw out. Your show lots of charts. You don't break them down to make them useful.

The idea that the forwards collective confidence dropping which significantly alters their play due to Murray's absence is laughable.

If what you claim is true, Ryan Murray should be THE most sought after defensemen in the NHL. He would be lucky to garner a second round pick and a mid tier prospect in the trade market. Which is pretty low return for a guy who makes over a 100 goal difference. LOL

Mm-hmm, that's nice.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Murray is 80th out of the 128 defensmen who have played 220 games or more in points per game since he's been in the league. That's the bottom of the barrel of second pairing. Throw out his first year and he's bottom pairing offensive production.

His GA/60 5v5 minutes for his career is 117/149. Bottom pairing.

Stats through 2016-17.