Value of: The cost to get Palat from cap-strapped TB? Same question for Killorn.

[surixon]

Tampa is in tough with their cap situation as well as trade protection the players they want to move have.

I doubt they get much of value given the above circumstances.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

I think that resigning your own players should count less towards the cap.

If you want to believe TSN and Toronto boards, in Tampa, our players do count less towards the cap.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

I think that resigning your own players should count less towards the cap.

Care to elaborate what you mean? From what I understand you are suggesting cap circumvention should be allowed. That or GM's should just do a better job at signing their own players to cheaper deals

 

[DistantThunderRep]

Care to elaborate what you mean? From what I understand you are suggesting cap circumvention should be allowed. That or GM's should just do a better job at signing their own players to cheaper deals

I'm guessing some similar to the Bird rule.

 

[HBK27]

Good points, but there's also riding buses and grinding it out sounds much worse than team jets and world class facilities. Plus I think most professionals would rather play in the best league in the world than the AHL.

If Tampa were to send Johnson to the AHL, it would be purely out of spite as there would be no real cap savings and he's clearly still an NHL caliber player. I'm sure it would also piss off a few players in the locker room.

Johnson earned a NTC as part of his contract with Tampa - usually a player tends to give up something else during a negotiation in return for the NTC, whether it be salary or term. He shouldn't have to be forced into waiving it. It's not his fault that the franchise decided to dish out NTC's like it's candy and now find themselves in this position.

It sounds like he's working with them and agreeing to waive for a number of teams, but if Tampa can't work out a deal with any of those teams then how far should he go? Should he feel pressured to go to a team/city that he really doesn't want to go to in order to help the Lightning out?

 

[ScaredStreit]

If Tampa were to send Johnson to the AHL, it would be purely out of spite as there would be no real cap savings and he's clearly still an NHL caliber player. I'm sure it would also piss off a few players in the locker room.

Johnson earned a NTC as part of his contract with Tampa - usually a player tends to give up something else during a negotiation in return for the NTC, whether it be salary or term. He shouldn't have to be forced into waiving it. It's not his fault that the franchise decided to dish out NTC's like it's candy and now find themselves in this position.

It sounds like he's working with them and agreeing to waive for a number of teams, but if Tampa can't work out a deal with any of those teams then how far should he go? Should he feel pressured to go to a team/city that he really doesn't want to go to in order to help the Lightning out?

I didn't say he should go to Detroit or another team just that I think he would...

 

[McJedi]

If Tampa were to send Johnson to the AHL, it would be purely out of spite as there would be no real cap savings and he's clearly still an NHL caliber player. I'm sure it would also piss off a few players in the locker room.

Johnson earned a NTC as part of his contract with Tampa - usually a player tends to give up something else during a negotiation in return for the NTC, whether it be salary or term. He shouldn't have to be forced into waiving it. It's not his fault that the franchise decided to dish out NTC's like it's candy and now find themselves in this position.

It sounds like he's working with them and agreeing to waive for a number of teams, but if Tampa can't work out a deal with any of those teams then how far should he go? Should he feel pressured to go to a team/city that he really doesn't want to go to in order to help the Lightning out?

Of course not. TJ has done far more than enough for Tampa. It’s time to leave TJ alone. He’s staying in Tampa.

what’s obvious to everyone at this point is Tampa won’t get to have their cake and eat it too. Serge resigned for a market rate deal very similar to a slightly better player in Zach Werenski. Tells me Cirelli will expect a similar deal in terms of AAV, term and proximity to market rate. There was no deep discount on the Serge deal.

I have no idea how they resign Cernak. He should also command around $4mm AAV.

rumors are out there that Tampa won’t bite the expensive and painful bullet to move TJ (and Groude by extension) so it’s on to Palat and Killorn. Move both those guys and you can resign your RFAs and probably get value on Palat. And I can’t imagine Killorn costs much to move. I’m not sure he’s even negative value.

it’s not ideal for Tampa but it’s not that bad either if they have to trade both Killorn and Palat to keep their three RFAs. Especially since they should be able to recoup a pick for Palat that may start with 1st round. Or multiple 2nd rounds. Dude is good. Assume it costs a third to move Killorn. No big deal. They can recoup that pick by trading down.

 

[HBK27]

Of course not. TJ has done far more than enough for Tampa. It’s time to leave TJ alone. He’s staying in Tampa.

what’s obvious to everyone at this point is Tampa won’t get to have their cake and eat it too. Serge resigned for a market rate deal very similar to a slightly better player in Zach Werenski. Tells me Cirelli will expect a similar deal in terms of AAV, term and proximity to market rate. There was no deep discount on the Serge deal.

I have no idea how they resign Cernak. He should also command around $4mm AAV.

rumors are out there that Tampa won’t bite the expensive and painful bullet to move TJ (and Groude by extension) so it’s on to Palat and Killorn. Move both those guys and you can resign your RFAs and probably get value on Palat. And I can’t imagine Killorn costs much to move. I’m not sure he’s even negative value.

it’s not ideal for Tampa but it’s not that bad either if they have to trade both Killorn and Palat to keep their three RFAs. Especially since they should be able to recoup a pick for Palat that may start with 1st round. Or multiple 2nd rounds. Dude is good. Assume it costs a third to move Killorn. No big deal. They can recoup that pick by trading down.

Yeah, I'm starting to think it's looking more and more like Killorn and Palat may be the ones one the way out for Tampa to clear cap space. I think the cost to move Johnson or Gourde is just too high - and that's even if either player would even waive to a team that could make the trade.

Theoretically, they should get something back for Palat - but he would have to waive his full NTC, which I'm sure he probably does not want to do. If that's the case, the only thing they could do is threaten to waive him, in which case he would most certainly be picked up by Detroit.

I think Killorn would also likely be picked up if he were to be waived (have to figure a team like Nashville could certainly use him), so Tampa wouldn't have to worry about a sweetener to move him.

It may come down to them having to waive these players versus paying a ransom to move someone like Johnson/Gourde or lose an RFA.

 

[JTBF81]

Tampa isn't moving Palat, end of discussion on that front. He has been far too important with Point and Kuch. There's also been no creditable sources that he's been asked or agreed to waive, nor anything reliable regarding Brisebois being unwilling to pay a price to move TJ. Killorn and either Johnson or Gourde will be out, plus one of Paquette/Coburn. The math has been done numerous times already as to how Tampa makes a 22 player roster work by moving 2 of the 3 actually available ~5 million players. I don't see Gourde moving either given his late season+playoff performance. Brisebois will eventually move Johnson and Killorn, but he's in no hurry yet to do so.

Cernak isn't getting close to 4, more like 2 to 2.5 tops, while Cirelli likely takes in the 3.75 to 4.25 range. It is pretty funny now though to watch certain posters on here act like Serg's contract really wasn't that great and that clearly indicates what Cirelli and Cernak are going to take, when there were more than a few boasting that Serg wasn't taking less than 6 or more(or an OS of course). Tampa will be fine and still be one of the top 3 teams in the league to start the year(if there's a season that is).

 

[LMFAO]

I have no idea why Stevie Y didn't acquire Killorn or Gourde yet.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

I have no idea why Stevie Y didn't acquire Killorn or Gourde yet.

Well, Detroit hasn't been paid for the cap hit yet.

 

[GOilers88]

I’ve already replied back to this and explained my statement. None of which you addressed in your comment and just added unnecessary aggressive comments but you do you.

My intent was not to be aggressive. But I keep seeing the Nate Schmidt deal tossed around as a way to compare values of other players and I think it's waaay off base. Sorry if that came off as aggressive.

 

[BStinson]

My intent was not to be aggressive. But I keep seeing the Nate Schmidt deal tossed around as a way to compare values of other players and I think it's waaay off base. Sorry if that came off as aggressive.

It’s all good and I appreciate that wasn’t intended to be passive aggressive. I defended my position probably five posts or so after that initial comment. This is why I come to these boards (well mainly to read about prospects) but to engage in civil discussion with other like minded individuals.

I just think the notion that VGK FO didn’t anticipate needing to move cap while negotiating with AP for a period of time is flawed. We are talking about a professional sports team that has a department that focuses on compliance issues like cap. They also had other players that could’ve been moved to be within in compliance but my question to that poster was more about their rationale behind their post.

It’s a weird market where the individuals with cap space for the most part are dictating prices for valuable players (eg Toews, Schmidt). I personally believe both of those players are more valuable than or equal to Palat or Killorn so that’s why I really question when someone says they will return a first. We can also be critical on the Toews deal saying it was 2 second round picks but were talking about the AVs so they’re going to be extremely late second round picks which don’t hold too much value in comparison to a first.

 

[zizbuka]

Could teams force Tampa's hand, and make offer sheets to the RFAs? Or is it known that the players wouldn't sign the sheet?

 

[surixon]

I think teams are just waiting Tampa out at this point. There will be more pressure to move out pieces the closer to the season things get.

 

[Lightning1995]

It will be an interesting game of chicken. Killorn will be traded and the return will be a little underwhelming.

Does JBB want to move Palat, even via waivers, instead of paying the freight to move TJ? Long term that’s probably the better move.

But Palat looked so good in the playoffs with Kuch and Point, JBB has to maximize this window. While I think the window is open another 4-5 years, the probability for another cup is much higher NOW than in 4 years.

 

[BeingTheThunder]

Don't see the Lightning trading Palat in order to keep Cirelli and Cernak... to me that is making the team worse. I would keep Palat over those 2 players. Maybe that's just me but Pally is the best all-around player we have. He does it all, he scores, he's on the PP, he's a beast on the PK, and his defensive game is not far off of what Cirelli brings.

 

[McJedi]

Tampa isn't moving Palat, end of discussion on that front. He has been far too important with Point and Kuch. There's also been no creditable sources that he's been asked or agreed to waive, nor anything reliable regarding Brisebois being unwilling to pay a price to move TJ. Killorn and either Johnson or Gourde will be out, plus one of Paquette/Coburn. The math has been done numerous times already as to how Tampa makes a 22 player roster work by moving 2 of the 3 actually available ~5 million players. I don't see Gourde moving either given his late season+playoff performance. Brisebois will eventually move Johnson and Killorn, but he's in no hurry yet to do so.

Cernak isn't getting close to 4, more like 2 to 2.5 tops, while Cirelli likely takes in the 3.75 to 4.25 range. It is pretty funny now though to watch certain posters on here act like Serg's contract really wasn't that great and that clearly indicates what Cirelli and Cernak are going to take, when there were more than a few boasting that Serg wasn't taking less than 6 or more(or an OS of course). Tampa will be fine and still be one of the top 3 teams in the league to start the year(if there's a season that is).

If Tampa is willing to trade two 1sts and Foote, they can move TJ if he waives. Seems like JBB won’t pay the price to move Johnson. So you gotta pivot to players he can move. Killorn is obvious. He’s gone. If that isn’t enough, it’s Palat or trade three decent rebuilding pieces to move TJ.

There isn’t a way to move TJ without paying a high price. Ditto Gourde. So it comes down to asset management. Trade guys with value or trade away guys with negative value and incentivize the hell out of it to make it happen. There isn’t a cheap deal for Tampa to free up cap space. It’s pain one way or another.

 

[DistantThunderRep]

If Tampa is willing to trade two 1sts and Foote, they can move TJ if he waives. Seems like JBB won’t pay the price to move Johnson. So you gotta pivot to players he can move. Killorn is obvious. He’s gone. If that isn’t enough, it’s Palat or trade three decent rebuilding pieces to move TJ.

There isn’t a way to move TJ without paying a high price. Ditto Gourde. So it comes down to asset management. Trade guys with value or trade away guys with negative value and incentivize the hell out of it to make it happen. There isn’t a cheap deal for Tampa to free up cap space. It’s pain one way or another.

Another great swing and a miss. What will be your excuse again when you're wrong again about Tampa? It won't be 2 firsts and Foote, but I'm waiting patiently for your well thought out excuses.

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

Johnson
2022 1st
Alnefelt

For

Cholowski
Filip Larsson

 

[CREW99AW]

Could teams force Tampa's hand, and make offer sheets to the RFAs? Or is it known that the players wouldn't sign the sheet?

Sounds like TB players love playing there. Cannot see why those TB rfas would sign offers sheets from other organizations.

 

[JTBF81]

If Tampa is willing to trade two 1sts and Foote, they can move TJ if he waives. Seems like JBB won’t pay the price to move Johnson. So you gotta pivot to players he can move. Killorn is obvious. He’s gone. If that isn’t enough, it’s Palat or trade three decent rebuilding pieces to move TJ.

There isn’t a way to move TJ without paying a high price. Ditto Gourde. So it comes down to asset management. Trade guys with value or trade away guys with negative value and incentivize the hell out of it to make it happen. There isn’t a cheap deal for Tampa to free up cap space. It’s pain one way or another.

Another piece of comedic gold from you, very surprising. Since you've been wrong about basically everything else re:Tampa, I suppose Tampa fans should be very happy you think it'll take 2 1sts and Foote to move TJ, thanks for the best laugh of the day(then again that's what usually happens when Tampa fans read anything you post). Please post your creditable sources that this is the price Tampa will have to pay, oh that's right, as with anything else Tampa related, you can't. You have been very accurate with all those OS to Tampa players you predicted(guess your sources failed on that one), contract values, Serg was taking 6+ for sure right...but don't worry, I'm sure you'll be right about the cost to move TJ or Gourde.

 

[CupsOverCash]

I think it could cost a first and a good prospect but I doubt we cough up 2 firsts.

 

[Cancuks]

I think they will trade Killorn and waive Coburn and Paquette and hope a team takes both of them.

 

[themelkman]

I think they will trade Killorn and waive Coburn and Paquette and hope a team takes both of them.

I dont think JBB is that naive, although he did think a team would pick up Tyler Johnson on waivers for him