The Best PLayer In The History of The NHL

[007]

I've always thought that the problem with Gretzky for hockey fans is that he is a totally different type of hockey player. He played the game completely differently from any other player and no-one will ever play the game the way he did again. His genius is impossible to describe, somehow, things just happened with him. Because of that, it's impossible to compare him with others.

Bobby Orr, on the other hand was the greatest because he was the best. Skating, passing, shooting, defence, attack, he could do it all. He may have revolutionaized his position, and he probably looked like he came from outer space in the '70s, but his brilliance is one that we can recognize and describe, if not emulate or repeat.

I never had the priviledge of seeing Bobby Orr play, but it strikes me that the biggest difference between Orr and Gretzky was that with Orr, you can look at him and say "If I had more skills, if I practiced hard enough, I could do that." With Gretzky, you often just have no idea how he managed what he did, how he thought of that. If someone else tried to do what Gretzky did, it just wouldn't work. It was almost as if he kept on getting lucky, time and time again.

I'm not saying Gretzky was better than Orr, nor that Orr was better than Gretzky. They are completely different examples of how to be the best.

 

[Jonjmc]

Best is such a subjective term and why I usually wouldnt get involved in such discussions, but..... we would have to choose how we define "best" before being able to give an educated opinion..... for what its worth, heres mine.


best as in changed how the game was played..... Orr
best as in dominated his peers like no other..... Gretzky
best as in the most talented player to lace up a pair of skates.... Lemieux

I've seen all 3 play their entire careers and would never presume to be qualified to say without defining how we determine "best" which of these 3 was, in fact, the best.

I agree with Trottier in that I cannot intelligently comment on players who played before my time as all I have to go on is some grainy films and third party biased analysis. For me, best is between these 3 players, couldnt argue with anyone who chose one over the other two.

 

[Metallian*]

straight up without any definitions or paragraphs of writing, my answer is Lemieux, hands down

 

[The Hockey Hitman]

Bobby Orr.

 

[RUSqueelin*]

I lean towards Orr but it is so unfair to even ask this question. No answer is really wrong. Anyways I came across this story on Wayne. Ever wonder what makes someone special? I know Orr had the passion for the game with his endless hours on the outdoor rink as a kid and his showing up for every game 5 hours early as a professional. Wayne had the same passion and this following paragraph illustrates it perfectly. This is unbelievable but explains so much. Ever wonder how Wayne become so puck smart?


"I was telling my wife the other day about when I was six how much of a passion I had for the game. I would design an ice rink on a page. I was six years old and I would sit down in front of the TV with a pen and I'd watch the puck on TV and I'd follow the puck for the whole period. And when there was a whistle I'd stop. And my dad would say, 'What are you doin'?' And I said, 'I'm following the puck.' I just wanted to see who's got the puck more, where all the play is, where all the action is. At the end of the period, you would see heavy lines in one certain area, or maybe on one end if a team is dominating. I was telling my wife, 'I don't know why I did it.' " No wonder, then, that his father saw his greatness coming before Wayne did. "He knew," says Gretzky. "He said, 'I don't know why or how you have this passion, but if you don't lose your love for the game, you'll be something special. You have this passion for the game and you'll go far.'

http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/CA_Profiles/People_Profile/0,2540,13,00.html


his quips on air travel is quite amusing in this article also. just below this quote.


This is a pretty good read. Every HOCKEY PARENT should be forced to read this story. While we are on the topic of the GREATEST, isn't this what every parent wants for their child (ok maybe 75% are focused on the money and fame) - for them to be the greatest. Wayne puts everything into perspective. This applies for the greatest in any professional or industry. This is really how the Orr's and Grestzky's become so unique.

 

[mcphee]

Best is such a subjective term and why I usually wouldnt get involved in such discussions, but..... we would have to choose how we define "best" before being able to give an educated opinion..... for what its worth, heres mine.


best as in changed how the game was played..... Orr
best as in dominated his peers like no other..... Gretzky
best as in the most talented player to lace up a pair of skates.... Lemieux

I've seen all 3 play their entire careers and would never presume to be qualified to say without defining how we determine "best" which of these 3 was, in fact, the best.

I agree with Trottier in that I cannot intelligently comment on players who played before my time as all I have to go on is some grainy films and third party biased analysis. For me, best is between these 3 players, couldnt argue with anyone who chose one over the other two.

That's pretty well how I see it. To take players from different eras, playing different positions, with different elements to their games, often tailored to team need, I always go with Orr. I won't argue that he's better than Gretz,Lemieux,Howe,any of them, I just that he could seize a game like no one else. I'm not too bogged down in being right though.

 

[soulok*]

If Gretzky and Orr played in the same era, Orr would have 0 hart trophies, and no art ross trophies. Orr's Bruins would lose to Gretzky's Oilers also. ...........Gretzky was better then Orr. Its not argumentative, its a fact. Orr revolutionized the game? What about Doug Harvey? Red Kelly? Eddie Shore? what about Rocket Richard? .....Gretzky revolutioned the game more for forwards then Orr did for defenseman. How about that? Orr's offensive output was already surpassed by Coffey just 12 years later, gretzky's Offensive output has not even been approached by anyone other then Lemieux in over 25 years! Lemieux in fact didnt even approach Waynes output. His best seasons were far inferior then Waynes. All this junk about Orr was the fastest skater ever is ridiculous, Orr was a great skater, but cmon Guys like Coffey, Niedermayer have all been compared on par and coffey especially as even being a bit better. Orr was great , He was physical, but all this crap about him being an awesome physical defenseman too is even more ludicrous. Orr was about as physical as your average 6'3 220 pound defenseman would be. Can anyone be compared to Waynes mental game??? sorry no one even comes close. Can anyone measure up to wayne's ability to grow the game just with his presence? nobody. Wayne had a 6th sense about the game. That talent far exceeds anything Orr can throw at him. Wayne was a better Goal scorer, better thinker, was a better playoff performer, better playmaker, Orr was better defensively, and could skate better and stick handle. Anything else?????? nope. nothing.

 

[RUSqueelin*]

If Gretzky and Orr played in the same era, Orr would have 0 hart trophies, and no art ross trophies. Orr's Bruins would lose to Gretzky's Oilers also. ...........Gretzky was better then Orr.<b> Its not argumentative, its a fact. </b>

Really? This is a fact? Gezz where where you 7 pages ago? Everyone could have saved their time. FACT

....Gretzky revolutioned the game more for forwards then Orr did for defenseman. How about that?

how about that? ..not much about that. Orr didn't revolutionize the game for Dman, he revolutionized the game period. Hard to say the Wayner did it more then Bobby. They both did it.

Orr's offensive output was already surpassed by Coffey just 12 years later, gretzky's Offensive output has not even been approached by anyone other then Lemieux in over 25 years!,

When the heck did Coffey surpass Orr's output? Cause he scored 48 goals over Bobby's 46 one year. Coffey was a great offensive Dman but he never came close the player that Bobby was. In cause you didn't notice, Robert won 2 Art Ross's with one knee.
Since you admit someone has approched Gretzky's output over the last 25 years, NO DMAN has come close to Bobby over the past 25 years then I guess this gives Orr the one up

Lemieux in fact didnt even approach Waynes output. His best seasons were far inferior then Waynes.

Uh, wrong.

All this junk about Orr was the fastest skater ever is ridiculous, Orr was a great skater, but cmon Guys like Coffey, Niedermayer have all been compared on par and coffey especially as even being a bit better.

What? Orr had more talent in his left nut the Niedermayer. Coffey was an awesome skater - the best of the last 25 years. For as great as Coffey looked and was - imagine someone better. His name was Robert Orr.

He was physical, but all this crap about him being an awesome physical defenseman too is even more ludicrous. Orr was about as physical as your average 6'3 220 pound defenseman would be.

What the heck does this mean?

Can anyone be compared to Waynes mental game??? sorry no one even comes close. Can anyone measure up to wayne's ability to grow the game just with his presence? nobody. Wayne had a 6th sense about the game. That talent far exceeds anything Orr can throw at him. Wayne was a better Goal scorer, better thinker, was a better playoff performer, better playmaker, Orr was better defensively, and could skate better and stick handle. Anything else?????? nope. nothing.

Wayne was an incredibly smart hockey - as I mentioned in the post above. You are implying that Orr wasn't? He was right there with Lemieux and Gretzky as to how they saw the game.

 

[soulok*]

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulok View Post
Lemieux in fact didnt even approach Waynes output. His best seasons were far inferior then Waynes.

Uh, wrong.

Uh Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulok View Post
Orr's offensive output was already surpassed by Coffey just 12 years later, gretzky's Offensive output has not even been approached by anyone other then Lemieux in over 25 years!,

When the heck did Coffey surpass Orr's output? Cause he scored 48 goals over Bobby's 46 one year. Coffey was a great offensive Dman but he never came close the player that Bobby was. In cause you didn't notice, Robert won 2 Art Ross's with one knee.
Since you admit someone has approched Gretzky's output over the last 25 years, NO DMAN has come close to Bobby over the past 25 years then I guess this gives Orr the one up

Coffey's 4 best offensive seasons are very comparable to Orr's, Lemieuxs 4 best seasons are are not on the same level as Wayne's Now I did not say Coffey was a better player, But he was certainly on par with Orr's skating if not even better. Wayne wins that one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by soulok View Post
Can anyone be compared to Waynes mental game??? sorry no one even comes close. Can anyone measure up to wayne's ability to grow the game just with his presence? nobody. Wayne had a 6th sense about the game. That talent far exceeds anything Orr can throw at him. Wayne was a better Goal scorer, better thinker, was a better playoff performer, better playmaker, Orr was better defensively, and could skate better and stick handle. Anything else?????? nope. nothing.

Wayne was an incredibly smart hockey - as I mentioned in the post above. You are implying that Orr wasn't? He was right there with Lemieux and Gretzky as to how they saw the game.

When did I say Orr wasn't smart. Implications are for the weak minded. If you read the post with more insight you would recognize Orr was NOT as smart as Wayne. Orr prbably is right up there with Lemieux, but not WAYNE.

 

[TheHoser]

Can anyone be compared to Waynes mental game??? sorry no one even comes close.

Well, actually, I do have one name... Niklas Sundstrom. I'm not kidding - that guy was smart. He could read the play like I havn't seen in a years. If he had even half the physical ability or passion that Gretzky had...

Gretzky is the best - ever. How can it be argued? Lemieux was incredible, Orr was dynamite, Richard, Esposito, Yzerman, Harvey, they were all great - but none of them compare to Gretzkty. The reason? All those guys looked like they were the inredible players. The thing about Gretzky is, when you saw him on the ice, you thought "This guy is the best player ever?" and than the next moment the puck was in the back of the net. One move, one stride, one fake, one shot and it was all over.

The other thing that makes him awesome is that he was 5'11. Lemieux was 6'6. He had the reach and size to dominate a game physically - Gretzky was tiny, but no one could stop him. It was just by sheer hockey sense and smarts that he scored all his goals. The only word for Gretzky is "unique."

 

[Hockey Buddha]

Gretzky. Not even worthy of debate.

 

[RUSqueelin*]

Uh Yes




Coffey's 4 best offensive seasons are very comparable to Orr's, Lemieuxs 4 best seasons are are not on the same level as Wayne's Now I did not say Coffey was a better player, But he was certainly on par with Orr's skating if not even better. Wayne wins that one.

well, we are arguing the rediculous now but Lemieux's 88,89,90, 92,93,96 were all on par with what Gretzky did. And before you just look at the stats, remember what Lemieux went through those years with his back and cancer. - it's well documented that the Wayner had the better career but we are talking about the greatest hockey player.

And for as great of offensive seasons Coffey had, there were not comparable to what Orr was doing. You hold Wayne in such high regard, ask him, he'll tell you
who was better on the offensive end. Reading your post again, you have a great infactuation with one player being able to skate as good as Orr? That's irrelevant. There are hundreds of players who can skate faster, shoot harder, hit harder, and fight better then Wayner. But that doesn't mean they were better then Wayne.

When did I say Orr wasn't smart. Implications are for the weak minded. If you read the post with more insight you would recognize Orr was NOT as smart as Wayne. Orr prbably is right up there with Lemieux, but not WAYNE.

With more insight? It was hard. You declared that Wayne was the best - it was a fact. It was hard to read that as insightful.

 

[Trottier]

I always go with Orr...I'm not too bogged down in being right though.

But of course, that is an adult perspective on things. Which makes it a rarity, at times, on this board (and this very thread). Unfortunately.

 

[tape-2-tape]

If Gretzky and Orr played in the same era, Orr would have 0 hart trophies, and no art ross trophies. Orr's Bruins would lose to Gretzky's Oilers also. ...........Gretzky was better then Orr. Its not argumentative, its a fact. Orr revolutionized the game? What about Doug Harvey? Red Kelly? Eddie Shore? what about Rocket Richard? .....Gretzky revolutioned the game more for forwards then Orr did for defenseman. How about that? Orr's offensive output was already surpassed by Coffey just 12 years later, gretzky's Offensive output has not even been approached by anyone other then Lemieux in over 25 years! Lemieux in fact didnt even approach Waynes output. His best seasons were far inferior then Waynes. All this junk about Orr was the fastest skater ever is ridiculous, Orr was a great skater, but cmon Guys like Coffey, Niedermayer have all been compared on par and coffey especially as even being a bit better. Orr was great , He was physical, but all this crap about him being an awesome physical defenseman too is even more ludicrous. Orr was about as physical as your average 6'3 220 pound defenseman would be. Can anyone be compared to Waynes mental game??? sorry no one even comes close. Can anyone measure up to wayne's ability to grow the game just with his presence? nobody. Wayne had a 6th sense about the game. That talent far exceeds anything Orr can throw at him. Wayne was a better Goal scorer, better thinker, was a better playoff performer, better playmaker, Orr was better defensively, and could skate better and stick handle. Anything else?????? nope. nothing.

Sorry....just had to laugh at this one. Did you actually start viewing hockey from the 80's on up? But then you say>

Orr revolutionized the game? What about Doug Harvey? Red Kelly? Eddie Shore?

Yes, all those players revolutionized the game but Orr changed it forever.

Wayne was one of the greatest ever yet somehow Orr seems to not get the respect by some for his accomplishments because some just look at Waynes records/#'s ect? IMO that's no reason to discredit what Orr's done in his career and if you've ever played or followed the history of the game, you might just have a clue as to what you're indicating.

 

[FutureConsiderations]

Orr's impact on the game is undeniable. He revolutionized his position, whereas Gretzky and Lemieux did what their positions expected of them (even if they did it better than anyone).

Howe can't be forgotten, though. To do what he did for as long as he did is beyond modern comparison.

 

[soulok*]

Yes, all those players revolutionized the game but Orr changed it forever.

I have to laugh at that statement. Changed it forever? and revolutionized? why are you trying to differentiate between the 2? its the same meaning. Get your dictionary out. Gretzky revolutionized the game MORE then Orr. How about that for a statement. Orr changed the way defenseman played the game, Gretzky changed the way Hockey is played! Period.

Sorry....just had to laugh at this one. Did you actually start viewing hockey from the 80's on up? But then you say>

Yes i watched both Orr and Gretzky. How about this. Gretzky was BETTER

 

[tape-2-tape]

Yes i watched both Orr and Gretzky. How about this. Gretzky was BETTER

Apparently other opinions, but yours, are useless? You show me very little with your knowledge of the game. Anyone who thinks that Orr isn't the greatest or one of the greatest to ever play the game, knows nothing about it IMO.

 

[Roke]

I have to laugh at that statement. Changed it forever? and revolutionized? why are you trying to differentiate between the 2? its the same meaning. Get your dictionary out. Gretzky revolutionized the game MORE then Orr. How about that for a statement. Orr changed the way defenseman played the game, Gretzky changed the way Hockey is played! Period.

Could you care to enlighten me as to how Gretzky changed the way hockey is played?

 

[soulok*]

Apparently other opinions, but yours, are useless? You show me very little with your knowledge of the game. Anyone who thinks that Orr isn't the greatest or one of the greatest to ever play the game, knows nothing about it IMO.

Apparently other opinions are usless? where do you pull facts out from? it seems to me your opinion is whats matters most. Let me get you in on a secret.......Orr was great therefore I know a lot about the game but unfortunately From the watching both Orr and Gretzky, Gretzky was Better. Anyone who discredits Gretzky's greatness or concludes that he wasn't that great because he didnt have the "physical" gifts neccessary to match up to Orr knows "nothing" about the game .......you ? perhaps? You go against Gretzky you are bound to get flames one way or another live with it.

 

[tape-2-tape]

Could you care to enlighten me as to how Gretzky changed the way hockey is played?

Be prepared....here come all the stats again. Gretz was one of the greatest ever but how someone could say that Orr wasn't as great, is beyond me.

 

[tape-2-tape]

Anyone who discredits Gretzky's greatness or concludes that he wasn't that great because he didnt have the "physical" gifts neccessary to match up to Orr knows "nothing" about the game .......you ? perhaps? You go against Gretzky you are bound to get flames one way or another live with it.

Hmmm...I guess you might find where I discredit Wayne?.....I'm waiting.

 

[tape-2-tape]

You go against Gretzky you are bound to get flames one way or another live with it.

Same can be said about going against Orr is the same deal....live with it pal. But I'm still waiting to see where I may have bashed Wayne? Nice try.

 

[soulok*]

Be prepared....here come all the stats again. Gretz was one of the greatest ever but how someone could say that Orr wasn't as great, is beyond me.

thats right buddy, stats Gretzky has it. Numbers MIND boggling numbers. Numbers that are freakish. Numbers that no one can explain how a skinny 5'11 inch 170 pound man can put up who skates like a flapping duck and scores like a done up ferrari,

 

[tape-2-tape]

thats right buddy, stats Gretzky has it. Numbers MIND boggling numbers. Numbers that are freakish. Numbers that no one can explain how a skinny 5'11 inch 170 pound man can put up who skates like a flapping duck and scores like a done up ferrari,

I'm still waiting for you to bring up my bashing of Wayne.....anyway, yes Wayne has #'s that might possibly never be touched but what does that have to do with you minimizing what Orr's done in his career? If anyone did any bashing it was you, not me. You broke down Orr's career as if it was nothing compared to Wayne's. If you can find where I did discredit Wayne, I want to see it. If me expressing who I feel is the greatest offends you....oh well.

 

[hckyfan0099]

I think it is a close battle between Gretzky and Orr. Gretzky was a pure hockey player who knew what to do. When it came to making the right play Gretzky was the man. He had incredible ability to see the play and what he wanted to do. Given he did have some great players around him, Gretzky did score insane amounts of points in a season. No one else has scored 200 points in a season. Lemieux came ever so close with 199.

Orr was a great player who revolutionized the game. He was a great defencemen who had great offencive capabilities also. He had 50 goals in a season where only offencemen could get that. Even then it was a big challenge to get that for offencemen. He really played his heart out everygame.

In the end, I would give it to Gretzky. It is one thing to have talent but it is another to use that talent in the right way. Gretzky could do that.