Pre-Game Talk: The All Purpose Off Day Thread | Schultz, Murray Practice with Team

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Geno and Cole back.

Id like to see a list of scouts for tomorrow's game if Cole gets back in the lineup.

I don't like to hate anyone, really.
I don't hate Kuhn, but Sully is starting to make me hate him

 

[ColePens]

Geno and Cole back.

Id like to see a list of scouts for tomorrow's game if Cole gets back in the lineup.

We definitely need G back. Very happy to see that. Hell we have a decent 9 with that. At least something we can roll with for the time being. God save Murray so we can roll through December.

 

[brewski420]

I can only go off interpretation of quotes and stuff like that, but my take was that Bones wanted to be here first. If i'm not mistaken, JR barely tried to work a deal with him because he wanted roster changes for new blood. I remember, vaguely, that Bones was just waiting for Pittsburgh to match, but never did.

I could be wrong, but I just remember the vibe was that he wanted Pittsburgh first but wasn't going to give a big discount (nor should he have).

I believe he wanted Pittsburgh as well from his comments.

I always thought the issue was term with Bones and I may have just assumed that as well because I thought over two years was too much at that price point.

edit:I see peat brought this up as well.

 

[Gurglesons]

Exactly and only pixies/pensx fail to realize, even if we re-signed bones or grabbed a good 3C, the struggles of Sid/Letang mixed with the lack of focus/prep of this team would have landed us in the same position with a slightly better team. Than people would be *****ing about L4 masking the real issue - the team's lack of focus/desire.



A poster in the other thread, a few days ago, had direct quotes from GMGM about the Vegas forwards. I wish we grabbed Haula in the summer and Cullen in August. We would be stocked, but the issues would still be there. It's part of the problem keeping us from being contenders, but it's not the two biggest problems. One of the problems, 87/58, is turning around. And we are winning because of it. Then Murray gets hurt. And you CAN blame some of this on bad luck. Vegas gets hot right off the start. That sucks. NJ gets hot right off the start. That sucks. The teams that suck don't need what we have. That sucks.

JR gambled on patience to get the right guy and at the same time he risked the injury potential. But IMO that's a gamble worth taking if the right guys weren't available. Ironically, I wanted Henrique as a guy, but i didn't want to give up a Sami Vat type player for him. Jesus.

You are speaking in complete absolutes.

I can say, we could’ve resigned Bonino and he would have put up 20 points in his first 20 because he is streaky and it holds exactly the same merit as what you are saying.

Also, you are once again diminishing the depth issues and acting like your right when you have no proof.

With that kind of defense, you are creating users like Pens X because you are supporting an argument with no factual basis but your own opinion.

My points all summer were:

#1: offense in today is ran through the center position which is true. The argument against it was our wingers would make up for it. One of them has, with largely taking Malkjn’s place on the PP.

# 2: centers are insanely difficult to acquire in season. The argument against it was that Bonino wasn’t that hard to replace and we would be able to deal with the lack of center position and make the playoffs. We moved Wilson for Sheahan who has been good and we are still barely in the playoff picture. I also showed over the last five years the only centers moved in season were players like RyJo.

#3: our depth is actively going to lose us games.it is and you’re trying to say it is focus and Sid and Letang. Why do all stars always get the blame? This is like Edmonton fans blaming McDavid. We have two PPG forwards and Sid is putting up solid, not remarkable points. Our bottom six has scored the worst in division. It is a huge issue, that we need to resolve. Our GM is actively shopping roster players like I said we would have to and was ridiculed in the summer.

 

[Ogrezilla]

 

[ColePens]

You are speaking in complete absolutes.

I can say, we could’ve resigned Bonino and he would have put up 20 points in his first 20 because he is streaky and it holds exactly the same merit as what you are saying.

Also, you are once again diminishing the depth issues and acting like your right when you have no proof.

I'm right because I understand the game. Sid/Letang make this team run more than any 3C you have in your imagination. But even more-so than that, the thing that makes ANY team in the world of sports work is preparation, hunger, focus, battle level, etc. Especially in hockey. The players have talked about it. The coach has talked about it. The GM has talked about it. I think you admitted you work late and maybe you aren't watching games to see it.

 

[SEALBound]

Stat of the day courtesy of Jess Marshall:
Pens current bottom six have 9 goals amongst them, 4 of those by Rust alone.
By contrast, CBJ bottom six has 22 goals and Caps bottom six have 15. This shows IMO that there is absolutely no reason for the team not to give Di Pauli, Simon etc a chance on this roster.

Such a sad stat. Course, our top six ain't doing great either *cough* Sid *cough*.

Reality is though, the bottom six isn't built the way it was last year or the year before. It's not built like Washington or CBJ's bottom 6. Teams are going to our model. We took a step back and got away from it and it's showing. And we all know the one player that it's due to.

I say it over and over, selective usage. Columbus, Washington, Flyers, Peg, yes play him. Other less physical teams, get scoring depth in there. We also need to start taking a longer look at Kuhnhackl, Arcibald, McKegg, and Rowney. Are they going to get us where we need to go? If they are not, we need to waive (honestly) two of them and start rotating in a couple WBS guys or looking for some other depth around the league. Hell, even a my crap for your crap trade.

We saw it twice, both in 2016 and 2017 that the best jolt this team can get is the infusion of a couple young guys. That and top players being top players.

I agree Bones deserves to go take the term. He earned it. I understand why JR didn't want to deal with it. I was okay either way. But let's face reality. Re-signing Bones was not going to change our outcome of this season so far. Or do you believe otherwise?

I think Bonino had Nashville on his mind since game 1 SCF. In his interviews, he was stoked to have signed with them. They gave him the $$$, term, and he fell in love with the atmosphere. I don't think we had much of a chance, even if we matched their offer. He also thought he was getting an expanded role there. He had 2C on his mind. Still only a 3C here on a VERY clear depth chart.

In any case, if he was here right now, that would not be magically turning this ship around.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm right because I understand the game. Sid/Letang make this team run more than any 3C you have in your imagination. But even more-so than that, the thing that makes ANY team in the world of sports work is preparation, hunger, focus, battle level, etc. Especially in hockey. The players have talked about it. The coach has talked about it. The GM has talked about it. I think you admitted you work late and maybe you aren't watching games to see it.

So, you’re right because you’re right

That’s as good as a point as Pens_X has made all season.

Sometimes, we are wrong. You were wrong about the depth issue all summer and are trying to diminish it by using keywords like Focus and blaming two of our best players for not playing amazingly, just averagely.

 

[LiquorLicense]

It seems to me the 'we had a shitty summer' argument is an exploitation of a seed of doubt. That exploitation however exists solely as a function of time and is a gamble. Time can prove such arguments wrong, just like they did with Bones last year. Most of us on here had seeds of doubt about Bones' ability to contribute to and inspire an effective 3rd line in the playoffs because he looked pretty crummy a lot of times in the reg season. But the sensible ones used logic and realized we needed to give it time and 'patience' and trust that those making a ton of money to make these decisions, should be given some credit for their actions.

It takes me back to a story about another user on a different Pens board site ( user named 'Chirpin' Grinder' if anyone happens to remember) who endlessly him'd and haw'd about how building a system around speed and skill was a losing approach, and that size and strength was the future of the NHL. It was his argument that the roster and direction the Pens were going in a year or two before the first recent cup win was largely why Sid and Geno had pissed away 6-7 years of their prime. CG ended up being terribly wrong. When the Pens won their first cup, CG was nowhere to be found because his primary arguing point was proven terribly wrong. I imagine he probably quit watching hockey altogether after the 2nd cup win. But it was a gamble for him that he hoped would pay off...would give him credibility in the eyes of other board members... and provided him an endless amount of stress relief to unload his doubt, negativity, and finger pointing on a hockey discussion board (at the expense of the other board members unfortunately).

I'm not saying those with the opinions that 'we had a shitty summer' or 'JR waited around and lost his window' will lose their credibility on here if we win another cup because the jury is still out on A. what JR will do and B. what is this team as currently constructed is capable of in the playoffs. But if we win a 3rd cup this season, it sure won't look good for those endlessly opining the same tired arguments.

Yes a GM should use every single bit of leverage he has to make the big trade that is essential to give his team the best chance to win. It is also his responsibility to do so especially if he thinks the window of opportunity is closing. But we don't really know what JR did or didn't do to try to make the important trades this summer. You can't make a trade just to make a trade if it's going to make your team worse off. Sometimes sitting on your hands is the lesser of two evils, especially when it's being widely reported that there is a shortage of trade-realistic forwards in the NHL currently and in the recent past.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don’t even think we need a big trade, I think there are a lot of creative ways to get three solid lines.

But, sitting back and acting like everyone in our bottom six outside of Rust hasn’t been a huge l disappointment and lack of production isn’t losing us games is silly.

Especially when you take the Mike Milbury approach of blaming our stars and “focus”.

No, we are winning games despite our depth issues because of Crosby and Letang. Not the other way around.

 

[Pens x]

I'm right because I understand the game.

Do you though? That’s certainly debatable. You sure have a high opinion of yourself.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

So, you’re right because your right

That’s as good as a point as Pens_X has made all season.

Sometimes, we are wrong. You werewrong about the depth issue all summer and are trying to diminish it by using keywords like Focus and blaming two of our best players for not playing amazingly, just averagely.

Nobody disagreed about the depth issue.

The disagree with how patient one should be before panicking about it. They are looking at the final goal not standings point at the end of November.

The real reason that the standings are an issue is multifaceted, depth is part of that. But bigger issues to this point are shooting percentage, save percentage and generally poor play (to their standard) of most of our best players.

The 4th line is a drop in the bucket of our relative struggles.

 

[Old Gregg]

I don’t even think we need a big trade, I think there are a lot of creative ways to get three solid lines.

But, sitting back and acting like everyone in our bottom six outside of Rust hasn’t been a huge l disappointment and lack of production isn’t losing us games is silly.

Especially when you take the Mike Milbury approach of blaming our stars and “focus”.

No, we are winning games despite our depth issues because of Crosby and Letang. Not the other way around.

Outside of the last couple games, the Penguins have been winning games without much of anything from Crosby and Letang. Over 1/3 of Crosby's points this season have come in the last 4 games. Had he been playing like this all season, and Letang playing like he can, the Pens would be in a lot better position than they would be had they acquired a "Bonino" level 3C

 

[Gurglesons]

Nobody disagreed about the depth issue.

The disagree with how patient one should be before panicking about it. They are looking at the final goal not standings point at the end of November.

The real reason that the standings are an issue is multifaceted, depth is part of that. But bigger issues to this point are shooting percentage, save percentage and generally poor play (to their standard) of most of our best players.

The 4th line is a drop in the bucket of our relative struggles.

Sounds like Tampa last year or the Kings after their cup wins.

 

[Peat]

#1: offense in today is ran through the center position which is true. The argument against it was our wingers would make up for it. One of them has, with largely taking Malkjn’s place on the PP.

...

#3: our depth is actively going to lose us games.it is and you’re trying to say it is focus and Sid and Letang. Why do all stars always get the blame? This is like Edmonton fans blaming McDavid. We have two PPG forwards and Sid is putting up solid, not remarkable points. Our bottom six has scored the worst in division. It is a huge issue, that we need to resolve. Our GM is actively shopping roster players like I said we would have to and was ridiculed in the summer.

1) Given the difference in McKegg's pace since being 3C with guys like Rust and Sheary, and being 4C with guys leave Reaves and Kuhnhackl, and given how Sheahan's pace has valuted upwards since Horny and Sheary gave him a boost, I'd stand by that. Wingers can greatly elevate their centres' performances.

3) Through the first 19 games of the season, Letang and Crosby were running at -14. Crosby had a mere 13 points - a huge underperformance for him - and 32 PIMs. Letang's stats read better but the eye test was telling us he was probably the worst guy on a first pairing in the NHL.

This isn't blame the stars because lets blame the stars. Or elsewise we'd be blaming Phil and Geno too. This is blame the two stars who were actively really bad by their standards. I don't see how this is controversial or how anyone missed them not just shitting the bed but having explosive diarrhetic mayhem all over it. This isn't "All stars have off-periods, that's why we should have depth to carry them", it was "They are actively bad and no team should be expected to have the sort of depth to carry the first line routinely leaving them a goal down at ES".

Now that Crosby is at 12 in 7 and Letang remembers what positive +/- is, its a bit different. They no longer deserve blame, unless closer inspection of Letang's penalties and PK efforts reveal him to be part of the problem there. But the blame they have got for the earlier part of the season? Completely and totally deserved.

 

[vodeni]

We definitely need G back. Very happy to see that. Hell we have a decent 9 with that. At least something we can roll with for the time being. God save Murray so we can roll through December.

We had a monster game from Rowney, Hags and Rust, Slotting Sheahan between these two will diminish speed and forechecking effectivness of this line. I am surprise at lack of creativity whne it comes to putting these lines together. Just because Shehan was aquired to be 3C does not mean you have to slot him there. Now you have Rowney pivoting Kuhn and Reaves, I just can't see that working, scratch Kuhn, put Rowney on LW and McKeeg at center, that way you have some speed if nothing...

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Sounds like Tampa last year or the Kings after their cup wins.

Does it, or are you just purposely trying to be difficult and panicky by using the worst case senario?

 

[Gurglesons]

1) Given the difference in McKegg's pace since being 3C with guys like Rust and Sheary, and being 4C with guys leave Reaves and Kuhnhackl, and given how Sheahan's pace has valuted upwards since Horny and Sheary gave him a boost, I'd stand by that. Wingers can greatly elevate their centres' performances.

3) Through the first 19 games of the season, Letang and Crosby were running at -14. Crosby had a mere 13 points - a huge underperformance for him - and 32 PIMs. Letang's stats read better but the eye test was telling us he was probably the worst guy on a first pairing in the NHL.

This isn't blame the stars because lets blame the stars. Or elsewise we'd be blaming Phil and Geno too. This is blame the two stars who were actively really bad by their standards. I don't see how this is controversial or how anyone missed them not just ****ting the bed but having explosive diarrhetic mayhem all over it. This isn't "All stars have off-periods, that's why we should have depth to carry them", it was "They are actively bad and no team should be expected to have the sort of depth to carry the first line routinely leaving them a goal down at ES".

Now that Crosby is at 12 in 7 and Letang remembers what positive +/- is, its a bit different. They no longer deserve blame, unless closer inspection of Letang's penalties and PK efforts reveal him to be part of the problem there. But the blame they have got for the earlier part of the season? Completely and totally deserved.

I mean, Jesse is probably the go to stat nerd in Pittsburgh and he’s pointing out how bad our bottom six production is.

But, it is Sid and Letang that were actively losing us games.

Depth helps support your superstars. We don’t have it right now in our bottom six. And you are still trying to diminish it. Plenty of other teams are in the playoffs with their top two centers scoring at a similar rate to Crosby earlier this year. That is without factoring in Phil and Malkin.

 

[theicebox]

So, is Gonchar in the best shape of his life?

 

[ColePens]

Do you though? That’s certainly debatable. You sure have a high opinion of yourself.

I'm sorry. I said game. Maybe that made you think of NHL 2018. I meant the game of ice hockey in real life. Sorry to confuse you.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

It seems to me the 'we had a ****ty summer' argument is an exploitation of a seed of doubt.

Pretty much exactly what happened last year, then we won the Cup again and those that said it pretend they never did.

EDIT: It happened the year before too when we won in '16.

 

[Gurglesons]

Does it, or are you just purposely trying to be difficult and panicky by using the worst case senario?

I think the standings are a mirage right now.

We can’t teeter around where we are right now and start playing divisional games.

Every game will be potentially four points in the standings then.

 

[Pancakes]

So, is Gonchar in the best shape of his life?

I bet he could still QB the powerplay competently.

 

[canadianguy77]

I mean, Jesse is probably the go to stat nerd in Pittsburgh and he’s pointing out how bad our bottom six production is.

But, it is Sid and Letang that were actively losing us games.

Depth helps support your superstars. We don’t have it right now in our bottom six. And you are still trying to diminish it. Plenty of other teams are in the playoffs with their top two centers scoring at a similar rate to Crosby earlier this year. That is without factoring in Phil and Malkin.

The bolded is absolutely true, and if you can't see it, you weren't watching the games. That's not to say that Crosby and the bottom 6 haven't been very good. They haven't. But Letang was giving away points left and right all by himself for over a month.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

I think the standings are a mirage right now.

We can’t teeter around where we are right now and start playing divisional games.

Every game will be potentially four points in the standings then.

The part thats the mirage is how poorly their doing. Its called PDO. Look it up. Regression to the mean is at the time i ran the numbers a week or so ago it was somewhere around 25 goal swing if we were running at NHL average.

That combined with the eventual upgrade on the 3rd line and this team will be more than fine.