The all encompassing "players of today vs players from the past" thread

[unknown33]

Rumor has it that Killion can hear rainbows and taste music.

One thing I was pondering regarding the fluctuating NHL talent pool is that is once seemed a regular thing for brothers to both be in the NHL at an elite level, but that seems to have ceased at some point. I guess the Espositos would be the last of that breed? I guess the Sedin twins are the only modern comparison?

At first I thought this might be a reasonable idea, but looking at other sports (football/soccer for example) the occurrance seems to be random and unrelated to the talent pool.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Problem seems to be that post expansion brothers are being overlooked due to inadequate research by the claimants.These are just from memory without research.

With one HHOfer, in the seventies alone you have the Howe, Dryden, Potvin, Dionne,Gretzky, Robinson brothers, potentially one HHOFer Wilson brothers(Doug and Murray), solid players - Watsons from BC, Sutter clan, Sauves. Post 1980, just from BC you would have the Courtnalls, Niedermayers.

There is no in adequate research going on here, look at the guys mentioned below, Richards, Epsosito, Mahovlich (okay Peter flamed out after looking like he might put together a HHOF career).

No in the best set of brothers you would have on these boards maybe 1 out of the top 8,9 or 10 sets all time beginning their careers post expansion and that's with both brothers being very good to elite type of players not a Gretzky or Howe divide between the 2.

[Mod]

Yes, the Sedins are quite the unique case of course (twins that played together for an entire career).

It just seems like it was a regular thing at one time: Esposito, Mahovlich, Richard... and many during/before WWII.

 

[Rhiessan71]

So once again, it's about punishing the players from the O6 because players from other countries weren't good enough to provide adequate competition for them.

So tell me Hardy, in 20 or 30 years when China and/or Japan is supplying a high number of NHL players as well as Nunavut and the Yukon expanding the Canadian pipeline of players, will that then be the "new fully integrated NHL" and everything that happened in 2015 be invalidated to some degree like you're trying to do with the O6?
And don't start your answer off calling this a straw-man either, that's just your standard cop-out answer when you don't have an answer or when you have been completely cornered.
It most certainly isn't. It is EXACTLY what you're arguing when you say the O6 players didn't face players from other countries or even from every part of Canada. To a lesser degree sure but the point remains the same.

Tell me, how many times did Lidstrom face Gretzky or Mario or Jagr total over his career? 50-60 times combined including playoffs?
How many times did Harvey face Howe or Hull?
Would you believe over 170+ times EACH not even including playoffs?
Which player do you actually believe had the harder road maintaining his high level of play?
Which player do you think was challenged by the very best in the world much more often?

Like I said in a previous post, there might be more individuals competing today but there's less individual head to head competition than there was in the O6, much less in fact.

To dismiss the O6 and the players that played in it like you constantly do based solely on population and lack of non-Canadian players without factoring in other points like above is ludicrous and just plain ignorant.

Your argument itself isn't wrong.
It's that you believe it's the only factor that should be considered and ignoring all others that is wrong.

 

[Hardyvan123]

So once again, it's about punishing the players from the O6 because players from other countries weren't good enough to provide adequate competition for them.

Why use the language of punish?

I have repeatedly mentioned using the Canadian standard, which has been constant and consistent since the late 1920's NHL as a base to compare players.

This doesn't do anything for variance but it at least would compare apples to apples right?

Those that don't want to do this aren't treating the 2 groups equally are they?

So tell me Hardy, in 20 or 30 years when China and/or Japan is supplying a high number of NHL players as well as Nunavut and the Yukon expanding the Canadian pipeline of players, will that then be the "new fully integrated NHL" and everything that happened in 2015 be invalidated to some degree like you're trying to do with the O6?

Well when it happens we will need to evaluate it's impact fairly right?

Again why use the word invalidated to some degree when it's putting it into context which is fair for Player A and player B if they played in vastly different circumstances.?

And don't start your answer off calling this a straw-man either, that's just your standard cop-out answer when you don't have an answer or when you have been completely cornered.
It most certainly isn't. It is EXACTLY what you're arguing when you say the O6 players didn't face players from other countries or even from every part of Canada. To a lesser degree sure but the point remains the same.

No the straw man is using language like punish, invalidate which I have never advocated.

But I guess trying to make a fair comparison between players is being deemed unfair by you?

Why is that?

Tell me, how many times did Lidstrom face Gretzky or Mario or Jagr total over his career? 50-60 times combined including playoffs?
How many times did Harvey face Howe or Hull?
Would you believe over 170+ times EACH not even including playoffs?
Which player do you actually believe had the harder road maintaining his high level of play?
Which player do you think was challenged by the very best in the world much more often?

Do you have any statistics that show or even indicate that players have lesser or more scoring against certain teams in the 06 era?

You know what players from every generation score more or less against different teams.

It's not like Howe and Richard were only playing against Harvey and Kelly for example.

If you have anything tangible to add please bring it forth for discussion

Like I said in a previous post, there might be more individuals competing today but there's less individual head to head competition than there was in the O6, much less in fact.

Every player is playing against another team, you have provided zero evidence of this 06 impact.

For example the Black Hawks played the Habs in the first round in the 52-53 playoffs before Montreal went on to win the SC and the Hawks scored 14 goals to the Habs 18.


http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CBH/1953.html

Where is the Harvey driving down stats affect here?

I'll take another 2 random years.

the folowing season 4 games from Boston

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/BOS/1954.html

they only score 4 goals but their leading scorer only had 47 points in the regular season so hard to figure out what is going on here but lets look at the next round.

The Habs play Montreal and lose the series 4-3.

Habs are outscored 14-12 by the Red Wings...once again where exactly is the Harvey/Kelly affect here?

we also have a very hard time now determining which players are responsible for goals against or prevented defensively except maybe for goalies but not for Dmen or position players.

To dismiss the O6 and the players that played in it like you constantly do based solely on population and lack of non-Canadian players without factoring in other points like above is ludicrous and just plain ignorant.

Once again who exactly is dismissing the 06 players?

Use of this language is a strawman plain and simple.

I'm looking for context to compare a player from 1956 to 2015, using raw stats just don't do that or top 5 or 10 or 20 scoring finishes between a 6 and 30 team league.

Your argument itself isn't wrong.[/B]

I'm fully aware that it's not wrong and that's why I present a Canadian standard as a starting pint to use instead of comparing one group of players to each other in one set (pre 1980s) and then having a second group compete against the same standard plus another one as well.

It's that you believe it's the only factor that should be considered and ignoring all others that is wrong.

Once again language like that (the bolded) is a straw man and I like to look at the biggest picture possible and try to account for as many variables as possible.

 

[danincanada]

So once again, it's about punishing the players from the O6 because players from other countries weren't good enough to provide adequate competition for them.

So tell me Hardy, in 20 or 30 years when China and/or Japan is supplying a high number of NHL players as well as Nunavut and the Yukon expanding the Canadian pipeline of players, will that then be the "new fully integrated NHL" and everything that happened in 2015 be invalidated to some degree like you're trying to do with the O6?
And don't start your answer off calling this a straw-man either, that's just your standard cop-out answer when you don't have an answer or when you have been completely cornered.
It most certainly isn't. It is EXACTLY what you're arguing when you say the O6 players didn't face players from other countries or even from every part of Canada. To a lesser degree sure but the point remains the same.

If people are going to be consistent than yes, the NHL would be even more "fully integrated" if Asia started producing elite players. If hockey somehow rose to international popularity like soccer and we had elite players from all around the globe in the NHL then wouldn't it be more difficult to garner AS nominations and win awards? Of course, and that's the same argument being made. It got tougher when elite Americans and Europeans emerged in the NHL because it wasn't just Canadians competing for those top spots anymore. It's about regions of the world playing a sport and producing elite athletes.

This is just basic reasoning that everyone should be able to agree on yet some here are petrified of it for their own personal reasons.

Tell me, how many times did Lidstrom face Gretzky or Mario or Jagr total over his career? 50-60 times combined including playoffs?
How many times did Harvey face Howe or Hull?
Would you believe over 170+ times EACH not even including playoffs?
Which player do you actually believe had the harder road maintaining his high level of play?
Which player do you think was challenged by the very best in the world much more often?

Like I said in a previous post, there might be more individuals competing today but there's less individual head to head competition than there was in the O6, much less in fact.

To dismiss the O6 and the players that played in it like you constantly do based solely on population and lack of non-Canadian players without factoring in other points like above is ludicrous and just plain ignorant.

Your argument itself isn't wrong.
It's that you believe it's the only factor that should be considered and ignoring all others that is wrong.

Once again, typically when we compare defenseman with each other we focus on offensive statistics, hardware, AS nominations, longevity, and contributions to team success. How would playing against Howe and Hull more often affect these metrics for a defenseman?

No one is dismissing the O6 guys or saying playing in a Canadian domestic league is worthless. It's just that pretending that an O6 players accomplishments are on a level playing field with a modern player who had to overcome more elite players for theirs is not fair to the modern player for very obvious reasons that shouldn't need to be pointed out anymore.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

brothers in the HHOF:

lester (1883) and frank patrick (1885) *** but frank as a builder
george (1896) and frank boucher (1901)
bill (1896) and bun cook (1903)
lionel (1901), charlie (1989), and roy conacher (1916)
doug (1916) and max bentley (1920)
rocket (1921) and henri richard (1936)
phil (1942) and tony esposito (1943)

 

[Canadiens1958]

Hypothetical Strawman

If people are going to be consistent than yes, the NHL would be even more "fully integrated" if Asia started producing elite players. If hockey somehow rose to international popularity like soccer and we had elite players from all around the globe in the NHL then wouldn't it be more difficult to garner AS nominations and win awards? Of course, and that's the same argument being made. It got tougher when elite Americans and Europeans emerged in the NHL because it wasn't just Canadians competing for those top spots anymore. It's about regions of the world playing a sport and producing elite athletes.

This is just basic reasoning that everyone should be able to agree on yet some here are petrified of it for their own personal reasons.



Once again, typically when we compare defenseman with each other we focus on offensive statistics, hardware, AS nominations, longevity, and contributions to team success. How would playing against Howe and Hull more often affect these metrics for a defenseman?

No one is dismissing the O6 guys or saying playing in a Canadian domestic league is worthless. It's just that pretending that an O6 players accomplishments are on a level playing field with a modern player who had to overcome more elite players for theirs is not fair to the modern player for very obvious reasons that shouldn't need to be pointed out anymore.

Hypothetical strawman that is defeating your own argument rather convincingly.

Asian immigration was one of the earliest immigrations to Canada, last half of the 19th century, likewise to the USA. Unlike other ethnic immigrations - eastern European(Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Czech, German, etc) Nordic, that integrated into North American athletic society at the elite level within a generation - Frederickson, Gottselig, Bostrom, Lewinsky, many others, only Asian of note was Larry Kwong, small handful of NHL games post WWII, brother of Normie Kwong, CFL great.

Conversely would Canadian or American cricketers or Sumo Wrestlers change the evaluation of All Time great cricketeers or Sumo Wrestlers? Would it make it harder to win awards and honours in those sports?

Extend the reasoning to golf. What has kept Tiger Woods from reaching his projected potential as an All Time Great in golf? Influx of foreign including Asian golfers or injuries and non-golf issues?

Your choice of the word "emerged" is interesting. Effectively admitting that non-Canadians were playing hockey for a long time but only recently did they reach the NHL skill level.

Others recognize that Pre WWI Americans - Hobey Baker, certain pre 1969 Europeans definitely could have played NHL hockey under ideal global political and economic situations. But these realities do not mean such an addition of non-Canadian participants would have changed the elite player award and honours results. In other words, two American goalies - Brimsek and Karakas in the 1940s NHL produced the results that were produced.If a third American goalie better than the weakest NHL Canadian goalie was available nothing of significance would have changed.

Elite playing against elite more often, creates a larger sample space for comparables. Best goal scoring forward playing against the best goalie results are more revealing about the talents of each. Multiplied by the number of such confrontations the comparables are even more revealing. Elite out performing the baseline against elite is more telling.

 

[danincanada]

Hypothetical strawman that is defeating your own argument rather convincingly.

Asian immigration was one of the earliest immigrations to Canada, last half of the 19th century, likewise to the USA. Unlike other ethnic immigrations - eastern European(Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, Czech, German, etc) Nordic, that integrated into North American athletic society at the elite level within a generation - Frederickson, Gottselig, Bostrom, Lewinsky, many others, only Asian of note was Larry Kwong, small handful of NHL games post WWII, brother of Normie Kwong, CFL great.

Conversely would Canadian or American cricketers or Sumo Wrestlers change the evaluation of All Time great cricketeers or Sumo Wrestlers? Would it make it harder to win awards and honours in those sports?

Extend the reasoning to golf. What has kept Tiger Woods from reaching his projected potential as an All Time Great in golf? Influx of foreign including Asian golfers or injuries and non-golf issues?

Your choice of the word "emerged" is interesting. Effectively admitting that non-Canadians were playing hockey for a long time but only recently did they reach the NHL skill level.

Others recognize that Pre WWI Americans - Hobey Baker, certain pre 1969 Europeans definitely could have played NHL hockey under ideal global political and economic situations. But these realities do not mean such an addition of non-Canadian participants would have changed the elite player award and honours results. In other words, two American goalies - Brimsek and Karakas in the 1940s NHL produced the results that were produced.If a third American goalie better than the weakest NHL Canadian goalie was available nothing of significance would have changed.

Paul Kariya is half-Japanese and Jim Paek and Richard Park were both born in South Korea. People with ancestry from Asia can be elite hockey players if that's what you're trying to imply. Is that what you're implying?

If a Canadian went to Japan and ruled the Sumo world than wouldn't that add to the number of elite sumo wrestlers at that time, therefore making it more difficult to be the best for the existing Japanese wrestlers? Of course, and that's what we've seen happen in the NHL with the elite Americans and Europeans. I know this logic isn't actually lost on you, you just don't want to admit it because then it turns into a house of cards.

Elite playing against elite more often, creates a larger sample space for comparables. Best goal scoring forward playing against the best goalie results are more revealing about the talents of each. Multiplied by the number of such confrontations the comparables are even more revealing. Elite out performing the baseline against elite is more telling.

With 82 game seasons there is no where to hide. The cream will rise to the top in any given season in terms of statistics and results (wins). Matchups can always have an impact but that's why the playoffs are always so interesting (and more meaningful to me).

Having more elite talents in a league still makes it more difficult for one to garner accolades. Having more teams, and with that more players, also provides a larger variance of possibilities. That's why it's more difficult to stand out in a larger league that's fed by an equally larger talent pool. Time to accept it and move forward with this reality.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

With 82 game seasons there is no where to hide. The cream will rise to the top in any given season in terms of statistics and results (wins). Matchups can always have an impact but that's why the playoffs are always so interesting (and more meaningful to me).

I'd say there's plenty of places to hide in a 30-team league. Depending on what division his team plays in, matchups against elite defenseman, for example, could be few and far between for a certain player. The opposite may be true for other players. A balanced schedule and all talent being compressed into six teams makes such scenarios far less likely in the Original Six era. If a player couldn't produce against a certain opponent or feasted upon another, it would have become apparent in a hurry. Seems to me that these would be the conditions in which there was nowhere to hide.

 

[danincanada]

I'd say there's plenty of places to hide in a 30-team league. Depending on what division his team plays in, matchups against elite defenseman, for example, could be few and far between for a certain player. The opposite may be true for other players. A balanced schedule and all talent being compressed into six teams makes such scenarios far less likely in the Original Six era. If a player couldn't produce against a certain opponent or feasted upon another, it would have become apparent in a hurry. Seems to me that these would be the conditions in which there was nowhere to hide.

Who is "hiding" this season and beating up on weak opponents and teams enough to greatly exaggerate how elite they are? Name a player.

 

[seventieslord]

Who is "hiding" this season and beating up on weak opponents and teams enough to greatly exaggerate how elite they are? Name a player.

I don't know about this season, but last season it seems Tampa Bay's kid line might have fit that bill.

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the point being made.

 

[Canadiens1958]

O6 Era

Paul Kariya is half-Japanese and Jim Paek and Richard Park were both born in South Korea. People with ancestry from Asia can be elite hockey players if that's what you're trying to imply. Is that what you're implying?

If a Canadian went to Japan and ruled the Sumo world than wouldn't that add to the number of elite sumo wrestlers at that time, therefore making it more difficult to be the best for the existing Japanese wrestlers? Of course, and that's what we've seen happen in the NHL with the elite Americans and Europeans. I know this logic isn't actually lost on you, you just don't want to admit it because then it turns into a house of cards.



With 82 game seasons there is no where to hide. The cream will rise to the top in any given season in terms of statistics and results (wins). Matchups can always have an impact but that's why the playoffs are always so interesting (and more meaningful to me).

Having more elite talents in a league still makes it more difficult for one to garner accolades. Having more teams, and with that more players, also provides a larger variance of possibilities. That's why it's more difficult to stand out in a larger league that's fed by an equally larger talent pool. Time to accept it and move forward with this reality.

O6 era. Just like the absence of Asian players did not impact the O6 era the presence of Kariya, Paek and Park did not impact the post WHA consolidation era in terms of performance and results.

"If" is the operative word here. Supposition is not logic. You did not answer the 1940s NHL American goalie situation. Fact, not supposition is that there was such a third goalie - Sam LoPresti who left the NHL after the 1941-42 season, never to return and nothing changed. No questions the resulting goalie awards and honours because Sam Lopresti was no longer around, playing in the NHL:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lopresa01.html

As for your supposition, how would one Canadian Sumo wrestler make winning sumo wrestling honours for Japanesse wrestlers more difficult? How does one Canadian sumo wrestler added to the existing pool of Japanese sumo wrestlers change the difficulty any more than a new gifted Japanese sumo wrestler added to the same existing pool. How does provenance change the odds?

Does the provenance of lottery ticket buyers change the odds. Tonight the Lotto Max is $55,000,000. Your point seems to be that if the buyers of tickets are only Canadians, the chances of a winner are better than if the same number of ticket buyers includes International buyers? Not so.

Larger variance of possibilities is not the same as a proportionate number of actual occurances. Plenty of examples. Today the Island of Montréal has a population roughly three times that of the 1950s, significantly greater proportion of cars, drivers, roads and miles driven. Yet annual traffic fatalities are about 1/3 to 1/2 of 1950s levels.

Your suppositions are just that. Not reflected by what actually happened or is happening.

 

[Theokritos]

As for your supposition, how would one Canadian Sumo wrestler make winning sumo wrestling honours for Japanesse wrestlers more difficult? How does one Canadian sumo wrestler added to the existing pool of Japanese sumo wrestlers change the difficulty any more than a new gifted Japanese sumo wrestler added to the same existing pool. How does provenance change the odds?

Provenance does not change the odds but increasing numbers do change them. Add several quality Sumo wrestlers from other countries to the existing pool of quality Sumo wrestlers from Japan and it becomes more unlikely for an individual Japanese star wrestler to dominate the competition.

 

[authentic]

There's just far less of a chance in standing out today than there was in the 06. More competition for Cups, scoring titles, it's pretty simple really. You are going to win more of both being the best player on the best team in a 6 team league rather than a 30 team league. I would actually argue that the 30 team league today is deeper in talent level from top to bottom than the O6 NHL anyway.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Who is "hiding" this season and beating up on weak opponents and teams enough to greatly exaggerate how elite they are? Name a player.

I've been a pretty big proponent on here of unbalanced schedule considerations being examined in player to player comparisons. Martin St. Louis and Alex Ovechkin's 2013 seasons are glaring examples. The general imbalance of team quality between Eastern and Western Conferences over the last decade is also something that tends to be overlooked too often.

As far as a specific example this year, I'd have to do some research. I'm sure some exist.

 

[Thenameless]

Funny you guys should mention this; for fun, have a look at Chad Rowan or "Akebono":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akebono_Tarō

 

[Kyle McMahon]

There's just far less of a chance in standing out today than there was in the 06. More competition for Cups, scoring titles, it's pretty simple really. You are going to win more of both being the best player on the best team in a 6 team league rather than a 30 team league. I would actually argue that the 30 team league today is deeper in talent level from top to bottom than the O6 NHL anyway.

Three different players winning every scoring title for an incredible 22 year stretch would certainly indicate this... If only that had occurred during the Original Six era. But it actually occurred in an era where 21-30 teams were league members.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Season

Who is "hiding" this season and beating up on weak opponents and teams enough to greatly exaggerate how elite they are? Name a player.

Too early to tell. Last season Calgary and Montreal bandaged certain weaknesses.

Could not do it this year.

Could not bandage weaknesses either way during the O6 era.

Montreal during the 1960-61 season after the retirement of Maurice Richard, lost Jacques Plante for 30 games due to injury. Still finished first.

1966-67 Bobby Orr was added by the Bruins. Still finished last.

One or two players either way hardly made a difference.

1979-80 Canadiens without Bowman, Dryden, Lemaire still finished third overall, second the previous season. Oilers, finalists in the 1978-79 WHA with Gretzky, with Gretzky in the NHL the next season, barely 16th overall, a good expansion team.

Today, the loss of one key player makes a huge difference. Montreal lost Carey Price 12 games in and the weaknesses slowly surfaced.

As for individual players "hiding" this year or any year, perhaps "disappearing" would be a more accurate description, Voracek and Kessel, both despite better team situations, an excellent rookie defenceman and Crosby, Malkin, Letang respectively are a lot less visible. More examples are available.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Good

Provenance does not change the odds but increasing numbers do change them. Add several quality Sumo wrestlers from other countries to the existing pool of quality Sumo wrestlers from Japan and it becomes more unlikely for an individual Japanese star wrestler to dominate the competition.

So it is the increasing numbers that matter not the provenance. If you were to add the same number of quality new Japanese sumo wrestlers it would be equally difficult for one to dominate. But has this ever happened? Has Japanesse Sumo Wrestling undergone an expansion?

1967 NHL underwent an expansion doubling the number of participating players but not changing the provenance of the players. Did individual dominance of scoring, awards , AST honours, change in proportion to the size of the league and the number of players? Bobby Hull still led the NHL in goals, Mikita led the NHL in points, non NHL player from 1966-67 came close to challenging either.

The filler players - the bottom 120 had no influence, even though they played Hull and Mikita actually scored less in a few more games than they had against the top 120 the previous season.

 

[danincanada]

O6 era. Just like the absence of Asian players did not impact the O6 era the presence of Kariya, Paek and Park did not impact the post WHA consolidation era in terms of performance and results.

"If" is the operative word here. Supposition is not logic. You did not answer the 1940s NHL American goalie situation. Fact, not supposition is that there was such a third goalie - Sam LoPresti who left the NHL after the 1941-42 season, never to return and nothing changed. No questions the resulting goalie awards and honours because Sam Lopresti was no longer around, playing in the NHL:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lopresa01.html

I didn't start these hypotheticals, I merely responded to one. I don't require hypotheticals because we've witnessed the NHL go from being a Canadian domestic league (composition wise) to a league with elite non-Canadians who won awards and AS nominations. That's proof of what I'm stating. What's your proof that adding non-Canadians doesn't matter?

As for your supposition, how would one Canadian Sumo wrestler make winning sumo wrestling honours for Japanesse wrestlers more difficult? How does one Canadian sumo wrestler added to the existing pool of Japanese sumo wrestlers change the difficulty any more than a new gifted Japanese sumo wrestler added to the same existing pool. How does provenance change the odds?

The elite Canadian wrestler wouldn't make it any more difficult than adding an equally elite Japanese wrestler instead. If there was a Canadian goal scorer like Ovechkin than we would have two goal scorers at that level. We don't though so let's stick to reality maybe? If Russians still couldn't play in the NHL someone else would be winning goal scoring titles. Does that impact things? Undoubtably.

Does the provenance of lottery ticket buyers change the odds. Tonight the Lotto Max is $55,000,000. Your point seems to be that if the buyers of tickets are only Canadians, the chances of a winner are better than if the same number of ticket buyers includes International buyers? Not so.

Nope, my point is that if you had tickets being sold internationally as well there would be more tickets sold overall and therefore your odds of winning all $55,000,000 would be worse. Why pretend you don't understand this?

 

[Canadiens1958]

Fascinating

There's just far less of a chance in standing out today than there was in the 06. More competition for Cups, scoring titles, it's pretty simple really. You are going to win more of both being the best player on the best team in a 6 team league rather than a 30 team league. I would actually argue that the 30 team league today is deeper in talent level from top to bottom than the O6 NHL anyway.

NHL has been around since 1917. 100th anniversay coming up. Natural fifty season midpoint is 1967. The year the NHL expanded from 6 to 12 teams. Previously the NHL had fewer than 12 teams.

Today the defending SC champion Chicago Black Hawks have won three Stanley Cups in six seasons.

Without duplication, During the first fifty seasons of the NHL only five teams managed to win 3 or more Stanley Cups within six season. During the last fifty NHL seasons(even if we are short of 50 seasons the numbers will not change) six teams have managed to win 3 or more Stanley Cups within six seasons.

Scoring championships - not as definative since the attribution of assists has varied over the years. Regardless, as defined, during the first 50 NHL seasons 30 different players won the seasonal scoring championship. During the last fifty seasons, one missed season and two to be determined only 19 different players have won the 47 determined seasonal scoring championships.

Takeaway. Contrary to popular belief about what is obvious, self-evident, the simple facts clearly illustrate that in a large league, twelve or more teams,it is easier, not harder to string together Stanley cup championships. At worst it is just as hard.

Individually, in terms of point scoring it was much harder for an individual player to stand-out,dominate, in a small compact league, less than 12 teams then it is in a 12 to 30 team league, to stand-out, dominate.

More supposed competition either at the team or individual level does not make it harder to excel at the elite level. The extra competition is just filler, back ground noise that does not impact on the final result at the top.

 

[Canadiens1958]

No

I didn't start these hypotheticals, I merely responded to one. I don't require hypotheticals because we've witnessed the NHL go from being a Canadian domestic league (composition wise) to a league with elite non-Canadians who won awards and AS nominations. That's proof of what I'm stating. What's your proof that adding non-Canadians doesn't matter?



The elite Canadian wrestler wouldn't make it any more difficult than adding an equally elite Japanese wrestler instead. If there was a Canadian goal scorer like Ovechkin than we would have two goal scorers at that level. We don't though so let's stick to reality maybe? If Russians still couldn't play in the NHL someone else would be winning goal scoring titles. Does that impact things? Undoubtably.



Nope, my point is that if you had tickets being sold internationally as well there would be more tickets sold overall and therefore your odds of winning all $55,000,000 would be worse. Why pretend you don't understand this?

No the odds of picking the exact 7 numbers out of the numbers 1 to 49 is constant for every draw regardless of how many tickets are sold or where they are sold. Very basic calculation that never changes and is not influenced in any fashion by the number of tickets sold, to whom or where.

As for reality and league size read what I just posted above.

 

[danincanada]

No the odds of picking the exact 7 numbers out of the numbers 1 to 49 is constant for every draw regardless of how many tickets are sold or where they are sold. Very basic calculation that never changes and is not influenced in any fashion by the number of tickets sold, to whom or where.

As for reality and league size read what I just posted above.

Your odds of winning all $55,000,000 would still be worse, as I stated. There can be multiple winners of course. The more tickets sold, the greater odds of multiple winners.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Provenance does not change the odds but increasing numbers do change them. Add several quality Sumo wrestlers from other countries to the existing pool of quality Sumo wrestlers from Japan and it becomes more unlikely for an individual Japanese star wrestler to dominate the competition.

Spoken just like a great Talking Heads movie Stop Making Sense.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I've been a pretty big proponent on here of unbalanced schedule considerations being examined in player to player comparisons. Martin St. Louis and Alex Ovechkin's 2013 seasons are glaring examples. The general imbalance of team quality between Eastern and Western Conferences over the last decade is also something that tends to be overlooked too often.

As far as a specific example this year, I'd have to do some research. I'm sure some exist.

This is something that does come into play, for instance Hawerchuck's playoff resume in the 80's against the 2 juggernaut Alberta teams and the video game numbers both Alberta teams scored at through the 80's.

Unfortunately this unbalanced schedule and opponents only seems to come up against the more recent guys that we have information about.

Alot of that specific type of information just isn't available for earlier times and definitely not for pre NHL times.

In the top 60 centers project this lack of attention to information was really evident in the round here both Stamkos and McGee became available.

Stamkos of course was held to the higher standard having to compete against 3 elite Russians in points finishes in Ovechkin, Malkin and Dats in different years.

Being the best Canadian goal scorer over a longer period of time than McGee simply wasn't enough for some voters.

Too bad that Stamkos couldn't load up on scoring after the Russians spent a month at sea on a freighter coming to a rested Stamkos and company eh?

McGees biggest claim to fame is that 14 goal effort against Dawson city after they traveled across the country in 1905 to play the Ottawa silver 7.

Richard's 50 in 50, despite the fact that he never hit 50 again despite 60 and 70 game schedules is glossed over.

that's not his only claim to fame to be sure but against his signature playoff is also war year enhanced.

in the same 50 in 50 season Richard has his all time best playoff line of 9-12-5-17.

The next season in another WWII year he has a 6-6-2-8 line.

to be sure he would be considered a great playoff sniper even without those 2 years but it's a pretty obvious example be wasn't brought up.

In stead all too often popular canon is just presented and then not scrutinized very much.

Context does matter and it should be examined as much as possible IMO.