The all encompassing "players of today vs players from the past" thread

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revolverjgw

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As I mentioned in another thread, Howe was facing the top 3 Norris candidates any where from 28-42 times PER season.
Crosby faced the top 3 Norris candidates what? 5-7 times last season.

Like seriously, how many 100 point seasons does Crosby still have if he had to face Lidstrom and Chara 28 times a season?



.

Not as many, but everybody else also has to play Lidstrom and Chara 28 times, so they'd score less too. Crosby's still the best player in the league either way. The list of the best/most productive players wouldn't look any different (barring situations where a potential star might not be able to break out because there's not many spots available.. another reason a 30 team league gives you a lot more competition, more guys get opportunities to shine throughout the league. Two time Art Ross winner Martin St. Louis might never have gotten his shot in a small league)

If Crosby played in a 6 team league without Malkin/Ovechkin/Dastyuk/Sedins/Euros, he'd still take home all the same hardware he won in this 30 team league, plus additional hardware for having less competition
 
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Hardyvan123

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Not as many, but everybody else also has to play Lidstrom and Chara 28 times, so they'd score less too. Crosby's still the best player in the league either way. The list of the best/most productive players wouldn't look any different (barring situations where a potential star might not be able to break out because there's not many spots available.. another reason a 30 team league gives you a lot more competition, more guys get opportunities to shine throughout the league. Two time Art Ross winner Martin St. Louis might never have gotten his shot in a small league)

If Crosby played in a 6 team league without Malkin/Ovechkin/Dastyuk/Sedins/Euros, he'd still take home all the same hardware he won in this 30 team league, plus additional hardware for having less competition

Pretty much this but the downturn in scoring probably has more to do with goalies/equipment and systems rather than anything to do with talent (except of course the question of the talent level of the average player and competition level of the league as a whole)

Because a League of the top 120 Canadians playing each other 70 times a year (14 times each) is still one tough environment to excel in.
Compared to today where there's over 600 players on a starting lineup and over 300 of them are still Canadian.
This is a major factor that you choose to ignore over and over and over.

As I mentioned in another thread, Howe was facing the top 3 Norris candidates any where from 28-42 times PER season.
Crosby faced the top 3 Norris candidates what? 5-7 times last season.

Like seriously, how many 100 point seasons does Crosby still have if he had to face Lidstrom and Chara 28 times a season?

It's not like all your points are invalid or don't come with at least some justification.
That's never been the problem with them. The problem has always been with the weight you give them...which is all of it while ignoring other factors.

I personally don't believe that the elite talent pool has expanded by 500% since the O6 days. I don't believe that an average 3rd pairing Dman today is on the same level as an average 3rd pairing Dman in the O6, nor do I believe that an average 4th liner today is on the same level as an average 4th liner in the O6.

When the Wall first came down and there were only 21-24 teams in the early 90's there is prolly a case but not with 30 teams.


didn't anyone else notice the irony of how Sid would do having to face 2 non Canadians?

One thing I did notice tonight was how many Dmen received 1st place votes in the Norris voting this past year and while in all the all star and Norris voting history we don't have the same system it does seem to indicate perhaps some greater variance.

8 guys had 1st place votes and that didn't even include PK Subban who is still a very good Dman or OEL (who is a damn fine Dman and would still face an uphill battle to place in the top 200 Dmen of all time given the leanings of the top 60 project as a group, due no doubt in large part to his Norris and all star voting results) this past year.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=86899849&postcount=747

Not to mention 5 of the top 10 were non Canadians and Weber comes from BC which was a hockey pipeline trickle until the 70's for the NHL.
 

Johnny Engine

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Not as many, but everybody else also has to play Lidstrom and Chara 28 times, so they'd score less too. Crosby's still the best player in the league either way. The list of the best/most productive players wouldn't look any different (barring situations where a potential star might not be able to break out because there's not many spots available.. another reason a 30 team league gives you a lot more competition, more guys get opportunities to shine throughout the league. Two time Art Ross winner Martin St. Louis might never have gotten his shot in a small league)

If Crosby played in a 6 team league without Malkin/Ovechkin/Dastyuk/Sedins/Euros, he'd still take home all the same hardware he won in this 30 team league, plus additional hardware for having less competition

True, but it would effect his legacy. See any thread where Gordie Howe is compared to a more modern offensive player like Jagr or Lemieux. Posters get it in their head that scoring 90 points while the the next highest scorer has 70 isn't a remarkable display of dominance. It's really too bad that people look at Howe's numbers and don't get that.
 

LeBlondeDemon10

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True, but it would effect his legacy. See any thread where Gordie Howe is compared to a more modern offensive player like Jagr or Lemieux. Posters get it in their head that scoring 90 points while the the next highest scorer has 70 isn't a remarkable display of dominance. It's really too bad that people look at Howe's numbers and don't get that.

Indeed. And Gordie set a career high with 103 pts at age 40 post 67 expansion. Can you imagine what he would do if he was in his prime not having to face the same defensemen all the time?
 

Canadiens1958

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Indeed. And Gordie set a career high with 103 pts at age 40 post 67 expansion. Can you imagine what he would do if he was in his prime not having to face the same defensemen all the time?

Consider the other positions as well. Top 6 goalies plus subs vs top 60 plus subs. Top 18-24 skaters at each forward position vs top 120.

Plus the frequency. Howe faced Doug Harvey app 225 times including playoffs. How many times did Jagr face Nicklas Lidstrom or vice versa?
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Not to point you out, as other have claimed the same thing but how could it not be more difficult in a 30 team league and with elite talent say from 30-40% from none Canadian sources since the early 90's than say in 1952?

Simple math will tell us that variance is much more likely in a 30 team league than a 6 team one all with top line and PP opportunities for each team.

Sure getting a calculation would be difficult and maybe even pointless and it wouldn't be perfect by let perfection hold us back from an improvement on the current let's judge guys how they did against their peers approach, which implies inherent equality through out time?

i haven't fully thought this out yet, so i'm only going to tackle the larger team league part, not the expanded talent pool part. but i always think of phil goyette when i think of expansion.

26 years old in 1960, should be near his physical peak, probably should be as good a player as he's ever going to be, and he's a (very good) checking line center on the habs dynasty, putting up good points for that role but in no way, shape, or form challenging for art rosses.

a guy who is about the same age, norm ullman (like goyette, also a bit of late bloomer), already has a top ten finish in 1960, and through the '60s will go on to place in the top ten the majority of seasons.

now by any objective calculation, norm ullman was a far greater player than phil goyette. never won a cup and never played a dynasty, but a very good playoff record when his teams were competitive.

in a 6 team league, the cream rises. ullman is a scoring star, goyette (even as the top offensive option on a weak rangers team and hitting the top ten once pre-expansion) is solidly behind ullman up to expansion.

after the first wave of expansion, phil goyette, 36 years old, finishes a mind-boggling 4th in league scoring. so yeah, that's the variance you were talking about. far and away his best year ever. ullman, on the other hand, is a steady top ten guy. peaks at #2, but i think as a general rule is #6 in 1961 and is #6 in 1971. the true HHOF guys like ullman are who they are. whereas goyette clearly benefits from expansion. so it's "harder" for an ullman to dominate his competition post-expansion because you get spike years from your phil goyettes and red berensons. and the gap between a goyette and an ullman, looking just at their overlapping post-expansion careers, is misleadingly close, though obviously ullman still is and looks better. so by the same token as competition is "harder" for ullman post-expansion, it's also "easier" for certain other players, because now there exist the opportunities for them to succeed as number one options.

this is radically simplifying it, but here's a quick and dirty breakdown:

types of players disadvantaged by expansion

now when we talk about the best of the best, the advantage i'm describing above doesn't apply. ray bourque is ray bourque in any league. and by this logic, ullman is ullman in any league. they are both guys who would rise to the top in a six team league, and who if the league expanded would still be at the top. all that changes is the extra expansion-aided spike years they have to compete with.

types of players unaffected by expansion

but to be precise about it, when we're talking about the absolute best of the best howe, mario, or gretzky, the extra expansion-aided spike years also don't apply. no pat lafontaine spike year can compete with mario, even when he misses 30% of the season. no peter stastny career year can touch gretzky, and i firmly believe that no imaginary peter stastny career year could have touched peak howe in the early '50s.

types of players advantaged by expansion

but where expansion does advantage players is, to take one your examples hardy, a guy like ziggy palffy. palffy was not bure, he was not selanne. those guys would have been first liners in a six team league. palffy was wonderful and he was one of my absolute favourite players of the early 2000s, but a guy like that probably gets buried on an O6 team. he's not as good as richard, geoffrion, howe, bathgate, and so on. so when we come to talk about guys like palffy or pierre turgeon or nik backstrom (the center one), or olie kolzig for these top positional lists, and when we grouse about palffy not getting the look that an O6 guy like dickie moore will get, or olie kolzig not having the "opportunity" to succeed that gump worsley did, one would have to also ask the question of whether any of those contemporary guys would even have cracked the NHL during the O6, and if so how far down the lineup they would have played.
 

Hardyvan123

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Interesting post my fellow west coaster but using Palffy as an example sin't the greatest as he was the leading scorer in the Czech league at age 20, who knows how his career translates or looks if the Iron curtain never falls.

working on my top 60 wingers list will get back to you on this as you make some good points but there is a lot to explore here, at least you are making the effort too many just ignore the subject or downplay it
 

Rhiessan71

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1940ish sounds reasonable, although post expansion would be far easier because that's when the baby boom was taking affect, Americans and Europeans were going to start appearing not too long after that and, of course, the Summit Series took place shortly after so we could actually make some sort of comparison with the best Soviets... but that's not really my point. People can compare anyone from any era...knock your socks off if you want to compare a player from the 1920's with McDavid. Just make sure you add context to their situations! I just can't stand the inconsistency and knowing ignorance that appears to occur at times, "let's add context here but not there".

Context goes both ways though and all you ever do is look at it from today's perspective.
The League today is faster and have shorter shifts so the players train to be faster and have higher recovery.
In the O6, the League was tougher and the shifts were longer so the players were tougher and had higher endurance.

The one constant over the years has been the ability of the best players to adapt to get better at the attributes needed to succeed in the League at any given time.
This is proven over and over and over again by every great player that has played multiple decades. The Howe's, the Bourque's, the Jagr's, the Lidstrom's, the Messier's, the Chelios'.
Crosby put back in the 50's would have just as much trouble adapting to the League as a 1950's Howe would if he was put in the League today.
Eventually, they would both adapt and would both still continue to be great players.
You however seem to be of the opinion that only Crosby (or any other modern player) would be able to adapt and succeed while Howe (and any other older player) would not.
That's a bull**** argument and everyone knows it.


The perfect case study for this is the Lidstrom/Bourque/Harvey debate. Many try to downgrade Lidstrom in comparison with Bourque because they feel Bourque had tougher competition in his prime (which were mostly elite American defenders I may add), which still may be the case even though Lidstrom is the only one who played his whole career in a fully integrated league.

Remind me again who was clearly the best Dman in the League in the early-mid 90's when not only was the League fully integrated but also only had its talent spread across 22-26 teams, not 30?
And there is no debate over the higher quality and quantity of competition Bourque faced compared to Lidstrom. That is simply fact.

Meanwhile, when Harvey's name gets brought up...poof, that context gets tossed out the window. His career gets looked at at face value even though he played in basically a domestic league in the 50's and 60's. Anyone pretending he had the amount of competition the other two had should really reconsider themselves comparing across eras at all IMO. That triangle of comparisons makes no sense whatsoever when real context is added.

The only person guilty of throwing out contexts in a Harvey/Lidstrom debate is you sir.
There are so many contexts you throw out or simply ignore about Harvey because they don't fit your narrative it's not even funny.
You ignore first hand accounts from top coaches and players that other than Bobby Orr himself, no one controlled the pace and speed of a game like Harvey.
You ignore the fact that Harvey was facing the very best in the League 5-6 times more often than Lidstrom or Bourque did.
You ignore the changes Harvey brought to the position. Changes that are still the staples and principals the position is built on to this day, 60 years later.
That Harvey's competition while fewer in number, it was still higher. The gap he put on Kelly was phenomenal. Lidstrom never even put that kind of gap on his competition and it was no where close to the level of Kelly.

The point is comparing a player from the modern day NHL, that has such an international flavour of elite athletes, with a player from the O6 will not be equal footing because the O6 was pretty much a glamourized Canadian domestic league. Since it was Canada and most of the top players at that time were in the league it was a great domestic league, but that's still all it was and it pales in comparison to a fully integrated NHL. We would downgrade any other domestic league for obvious reasons so we have to keep that in mind for the O6 as well. It seems this context often gets lost and people want to pretend it's an apples to apples comparison when it's not. The NHL being international now is, of course, only the most obvious difference. Canada wasn't even producing elite players from coast to coast until fairly recently and the baby boom obviously had a huge impact on the number of truly elite players the country produced. There's has been huge change since the O6 in terms of where the talent comes from.

You can only beat what's available and Harvey played against higher level talent with much greater frequency than Lidstrom did.

Harvey was obviously a great player but he didn't separate himself from his peers anymore than Lidstrom did so how he gets ranked above by some is mind boggling, considering this added context everyone should already have applied. Someone like Orr blew everyone away so even if the NHL didn't have quite as much elite talent in his day I could see why someone (most) would rank him # 1, despite the bad knees and shortened career.

Again...
#1) Who did Lidstrom separate himself from to the same degree that Harvey separated himself from Kelly and others?
#2) Who out of Lidstrom's competition was of Kelly's level?
 

cbh

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No poster worth reading honestly thinks that players of the past are worse than current players.

By this I mean, obviously if Cyclone Taylor stepped into the NHL today he would be annihilated. Obviously, the game changes. But what I'm getting at is you can't discredit past players for being born when they were.

You can only compare players of past generations by comparing how everyone does against their peers. Saying "Player from 2000 would crush player from 1940 if they happened to be dropped into a game in 2010" is useless and idiotic, and no one who says this is worth paying attention to.


Spot on.


What do you mean with better? It seems that you think its silly just because most people dont automatically count your favorite players into the top25. Which is ridiculous. Crosby has a cup and a hart (and a maurice and a ross.) with that alone he doesnt beat out a guy like Chelios (~41). I might agree that he is currently competing with guys like Dionne and Mahovlich for a top50 entrance.

We are talking about 5 seasons vs. whole careers.

For example Paul Coffey (currently ranked at #46) has 7 consecutive ASTs from his 2nd season. Crosby simply doesnt beat that (yet).

Don't you think that this whole thing about future generation is better been talked about before? They did the same in other sports. In football people said that no one would dominate like Pele did and suddenly there was Maradona. So the whole notion that dominating like for example Gretzky wont happen again or that Gretzky couldnt do it now is ridiculous.


Not even close.

Stats (everything else is opinion)

National Team WC
Pele - 3
Maradona - 1

National Team goals
Pele - 77
Maradona - 34

National Team caps
Pele - 92
Maradona - 91

Club level domestic championships

Pele - 11
Maradona - 3

Club level South American championships
Pele - 2
Maradona - 0

Club (league) goals
Pele - 507
Maradona - 258


Opinion

Pele :

Selected (not by "fans", but by past Golden Ball winners) Football Player of the Century, France Football, 1999

selected by world journalists as Athlete of the Century, L'Equipe, 1980

Athlete of the Century, Reuters News Agency, 1999

Athlete of the Century, International Olympic Committee, 1999

Football Player of the Century, Unicef, 1999

Football Player of the Century, IFFHS, 1999

South American Football Player of the Century, IFFHS, 1999
 

danincanada

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Context goes both ways though and all you ever do is look at it from today's perspective.
The League today is faster and have shorter shifts so the players train to be faster and have higher recovery.
In the O6, the League was tougher and the shifts were longer so the players were tougher and had higher endurance.

The one constant over the years has been the ability of the best players to adapt to get better at the attributes needed to succeed in the League at any given time.
This is proven over and over and over again by every great player that has played multiple decades. The Howe's, the Bourque's, the Jagr's, the Lidstrom's, the Messier's, the Chelios'.
Crosby put back in the 50's would have just as much trouble adapting to the League as a 1950's Howe would if he was put in the League today.
Eventually, they would both adapt and would both still continue to be great players.
You however seem to be of the opinion that only Crosby (or any other modern player) would be able to adapt and succeed while Howe (and any other older player) would not.
That's a bull**** argument and everyone knows it.

This is not my argument and I pretty much agree with this. It's wasted keystrokes unless someone else wants to debate this with you. Please don't waste my time with straw man arguments or try to put words in my mouth.

Remind me again who was clearly the best Dman in the League in the early-mid 90's when not only was the League fully integrated but also only had its talent spread across 22-26 teams, not 30?
And there is no debate over the higher quality and quantity of competition Bourque faced compared to Lidstrom. That is simply fact.

This debate has been beaten to death already and doesn't really belong in this thread. You know my arguments in favour of Lidstrom already and I know yours for Bourque. I prefer Lidstrom and his accomplishments and you prefer Bourque and his. I'll agree to disagree.

The only person guilty of throwing out contexts in a Harvey/Lidstrom debate is you sir.
There are so many contexts you throw out or simply ignore about Harvey because they don't fit your narrative it's not even funny.
You ignore first hand accounts from top coaches and players that other than Bobby Orr himself, no one controlled the pace and speed of a game like Harvey.
You ignore the fact that Harvey was facing the very best in the League 5-6 times more often than Lidstrom or Bourque did.
You ignore the changes Harvey brought to the position. Changes that are still the staples and principals the position is built on to this day, 60 years later.
That Harvey's competition while fewer in number, it was still higher. The gap he put on Kelly was phenomenal. Lidstrom never even put that kind of gap on his competition and it was no where close to the level of Kelly.

You can only beat what's available and Harvey played against higher level talent with much greater frequency than Lidstrom did.

Again...
#1) Who did Lidstrom separate himself from to the same degree that Harvey separated himself from Kelly and others?
#2) Who out of Lidstrom's competition was of Kelly's level?

First of all, Harvey and Kelly both received AS nominations in the same season only 6 times so don't pretend they were neck and neck their whole careers. This accounted for only 3 of Harvey's Norris' where he had to overcome an elite Kelly breathing down his neck.

Secondly, it's impossible to prove that Kelly was superior to Pronger, Niedermayer, Leetch, Blake, etc. You want to assume that but the same argument can be used for these guys against Kelly. The NHL had more elite defenders and players later and when it became fully integrated. We've seen Americans and Europeans win hardware and garner AS nominations so that's all the proof we need that they've made it more difficult on the elite Canadians. During Harvey/Kelly's time they didn't have to worry about their eras Lidstrom, Leetch, etc.

Lastly, "controlling the pace of the game" and influencing how the sport is played going forward are nice things but it's very difficult to actually measure those two metrics. Typically we look at offensive statistics, hardware, AS nominations, longevity, and contributions to team success - AS YOU KNOW. Lidstrom beats Harvey in just about every regular category that's used and he did it in a fully integrated league. That's why he should be ranked higher on the all-time list if one chooses to compare the two.
 

Ishdul

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Please no... he is not even the best (or clear-cut) best of his generation, and he is GOAT?
Only specific fans of Ronaldo would take him over Messi, and I think these would be the same people who could take Richard over Howe or similar. I also think the gap between them is likely to increase.
 

Hardyvan123

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Context goes both ways though and all you ever do is look at it from today's perspective.
The League today is faster and have shorter shifts so the players train to be faster and have higher recovery.
In the O6, the League was tougher and the shifts were longer so the players were tougher and had higher endurance.

the league was tougher in 06 and the basis is because of longer shifts?

Really?


go look at game films form the 06 era and the pace of the game is much slower with those longer shifts...period.

slower pace means more time and space and less hitting and physical contact.

Today's game is faster there is less time and space for every player out there...period.

One can argue how that affects elite players sure but your statement above simply doesn't pass the test.

It's not a hard concept and anyone can test it even in a ball hockey or pickup game.

Set the rules at 2 minute or 1 minute shifts and it will be clear that tired players produce more time and space for players with the puck.

Or heck if one is by themselves go to a track and run 200 meters (first so the imapct of the 2nd run is against the shorter shift) and then rest 10 minutes and run 100 meters.

One will be amazed at how much shorter the 100 meters time will be even with eh starting out of the blocks being a larger ratio of the 100 meter time.
 

seventieslord

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You know comma we all put periods at the ends of our sentences comma which should get the point across that it apostrophe s the end of a sentence period We don apostrophe t need to enunciate our punctuation on such a regular basis period I get the intent comma but using it so often really devalues the emphasis you apostrophe re trying to make period
 

Hardyvan123

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You know comma we all put periods at the ends of our sentences comma which should get the point across that it apostrophe s the end of a sentence period We don apostrophe t need to enunciate our punctuation on such a regular basis period I get the intent comma but using it so often really devalues the emphasis you apostrophe re trying to make period

very random but everyone here is trying their best to be as fluid and poetic as Killion...just too "big 4" like for many of us to reach.:)
 

Czech Your Math

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very random but everyone here is trying their best to be as fluid and poetic as Killion...just too "big 4" like for many of us to reach.:)

Rumor has it that Killion can hear rainbows and taste music. :amazed:

One thing I was pondering regarding the fluctuating NHL talent pool is that is once seemed a regular thing for brothers to both be in the NHL at an elite level, but that seems to have ceased at some point. I guess the Espositos would be the last of that breed? I guess the Sedin twins are the only modern comparison?
 
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Hardyvan123

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Rumor has it that Killion can hear rainbows and taste music. :amazed:

One thing I was pondering regarding the fluctuating NHL talent pool is that is once seemed a regular thing for brothers to both be in the NHL at an elite level, but that seems to have ceased at some point. I guess the Espositos would be the last of that breed? Have there even been any brothers that were both very solid NHLers since the Sutters?

Sedins are the obvious example here but there are twins.

The new trend though is sons of former NHLers which seems to have exploded in the 2000's
 

Czech Your Math

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Sedins are the obvious example here but there are twins.

The new trend though is sons of former NHLers which seems to have exploded in the 2000's

Yes, the Sedins are quite the unique case of course (twins that played together for an entire career).

It just seems like it was a regular thing at one time: Esposito, Mahovlich, Richard... and many during/before WWII.
 

Hardyvan123

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Yes, the Sedins are quite the unique case of course (twins that played together for an entire career).

It just seems like it was a regular thing at one time: Esposito, Mahovlich, Richard... and many during/before WWII.

Yes I agree and perhaps that's because the pre expansion NHL perhaps wasn't as elite as many sometimes make out around these parts.

But perhaps it's also combined with smaller families as well, very hard to say.

i'm guessing it's a little of both.
 

Canadiens1958

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Brothers

Rumor has it that Killion can hear rainbows and taste music. :amazed:

One thing I was pondering regarding the fluctuating NHL talent pool is that is once seemed a regular thing for brothers to both be in the NHL at an elite level, but that seems to have ceased at some point. I guess the Espositos would be the last of that breed? I guess the Sedin twins are the only modern comparison?

Let's see. Just 2015. The Staal brothers, Benn brothers, Foligno brothers,Schenn brothers plus:

https://www.nhl.com/news/benns-set-to-become-15th-brother-combination-in-nhl/c-5344

Turgeon brothers, Hatcher brothers, Sutters. If you look at HHOF elite only there were stretches of ten years +/- between such occurances.
 

Hardyvan123

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Let's see. Just 2015. The Staal brothers, Benn brothers, Foligno brothers,Schenn brothers plus:

https://www.nhl.com/news/benns-set-to-become-15th-brother-combination-in-nhl/c-5344

Turgeon brothers, Hatcher brothers, Sutters. If you look at HHOF elite only there were stretches of ten years +/- between such occurances.

Still CzechYourMath was talking about brothers considered an an elite level if only for a short period of time and it is very interesting that outside of the Sedins that it happens those 3 times pre expansion, plus a couple of others I can't remember Bentleys and Cooks pop in my head though.

The more frequent occurrence of elite brothers could be a fluke I guess but maybe it points to pre expansion NHL not being quite so elite as many make it out here.

It sure doesn't help the case of how elite 06 and before hockey was.

although to be fair some of the more recent brother combos have had injury problems in their careers but still even best case scenarios waht are the odds of the top 7 or 8 sets of brothers and having 1 set post 2000 and all of the others starting pre NHL expansion?

Pretty long odds IMO.
 

Canadiens1958

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Brothers

Still CzechYourMath was talking about brothers considered an an elite level if only for a short period of time and it is very interesting that outside of the Sedins that it happens those 3 times pre expansion, plus a couple of others I can't remember Bentleys and Cooks pop in my head though.

The more frequent occurrence of elite brothers could be a fluke I guess but maybe it points to pre expansion NHL not being quite so elite as many make it out here.

It sure doesn't help the case of how elite 06 and before hockey was.

although to be fair some of the more recent brother combos have had injury problems in their careers but still even best case scenarios waht are the odds of the top 7 or 8 sets of brothers and having 1 set post 2000 and all of the others starting pre NHL expansion?

Pretty long odds IMO.

Problem seems to be that post expansion brothers are being overlooked due to inadequate research by the claimants.These are just from memory without research.

With one HHOfer, in the seventies alone you have the Howe, Dryden, Potvin, Dionne,Gretzky, Robinson brothers, potentially one HHOFer Wilson brothers(Doug and Murray), solid players - Watsons from BC, Sutter clan, Sauves. Post 1980, just from BC you would have the Courtnalls, Niedermayers.
 
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