The all-encompassing Dave Bolland thread

[ucanthanzalthetruth]

For like the 8th time this season a GDT has turned into Bolland discussion. That isn't the purpose of GDTs. Put Bolland discussion in this thread so it doesn't derail other threads.

He's here till 2019 so this will be the first of many threads. I wish people would move on but oh well.

Click to read more...

 

[FlaPanthers11]

I'll start with Trocheck can't play defense. He's statistically one of the worst on our team at preventing scoring chances and high danger scoring chances despite having some of the most favorable zone starts.

 

[Android 16]

Bolland wins the big faceoffs.

Steve "Goldie" Goldstein

 

[Panthers Rock]

Player|Faceoffs Won|Faceoffs Lost|Faceoff %
D. Mackenzie|115|94|55%
N. Bjugstad|127|120|51.4%
J. Jokinen|39|37|51.3%
Q. Howden|1|1|50%
V. Trocheck|75|79|48.7%
A. Barkov|54|61|47%
D. Bolland|115|139|45.3%

Ordered this by Faceoff %. Left off anyone else that took faceoffs and is below Bolland (Pirri, Huberdeau, and Grimaldi).

So throwing out Howden, even throwing out Jokinen, Bolland is not even close to being that great at faceoffs on this team. Trocheck proves he's better at it here, yet doesn't get to play center.

So the argument that he brings faceoff wins isn't very justified (in fact he's lost the most), ESPECIALLY at his price point. And there-in lies the biggest issues, he isn't just lacking usefulness, he's super overpaid for what he does.

We literally have a much more effective version of this player in Mackenzie, who can score just as much, wins more faceoffs, is more useful on the PK, and takes less penalties.

So now we're down to Bolland just bringing size. Yes, he's got that, and I'd rather have him at center than say Grimaldi, but that's not saying much. It's really hard to justify him on this team, his contract just makes it that much worse.

 

[vendetta]

Player|Faceoffs Won|Faceoffs Lost|Faceoff %
D. Mackenzie|115|94|55%
N. Bjugstad|127|120|51.4%
J. Jokinen|39|37|51.3%
Q. Howden|1|1|50%
V. Trocheck|75|79|48.7%
A. Barkov|54|61|47%
D. Bolland|115|139|45.3%

Ordered this by Faceoff %. Left off anyone else that took faceoffs and is below Bolland (Pirri, Huberdeau, and Grimaldi).

So throwing out Howden, even throwing out Jokinen, Bolland is not even close to being that great at faceoffs on this team. Trocheck proves he's better at it here, yet doesn't get to play center.

So the argument that he brings faceoff wins isn't very justified (in fact he's lost the most), ESPECIALLY at his price point. And there-in lies the biggest issues, he isn't just lacking usefulness, he's super overpaid for what he does.

We literally have a much more effective version of this player in Mackenzie, who can score just as much, wins more faceoffs, is more useful on the PK, and takes less penalties.

So now we're down to Bolland just bringing size. Yes, he's got that, and I'd rather have him at center than say Grimaldi, but that's not saying much. It's really hard to justify him on this team, his contract just makes it that much worse.

R u just making **** up? Bolland brings size? Huh? He is twice the defensive player Mackenzie is and I'm about done with bolland conversation as the majority of people still just don't get it whatsoever... This is hockey people...

 

[Panthers Rock]

R u just making **** up? Bolland brings size? Huh? He is twice the defensive player Mackenzie is and I'm about done with bolland conversation as the majority of people still just don't get it whatsoever... This is hockey people...

No I won't deny that, he brings defense for sure. I saw it last night no less. The issue is always going to be the same: he just makes too much for what he brings. That's all. He really should be a 4th line center, but he's playing 3rd line center. We already have a 4th line center. Now that leaves Trocheck out in the cold where he should be the 3rd line center. He's occupying a spot that maybe he shouldn't.

Honestly, if he was a winger on the 4th line, instead of say Thornton, that would probably be better. But for $5.5 million, he's just not worth that. And for 5 years, that is likely going to block Trocheck's development as a center, unless we get rid of MacKenzie, which I doubt anyone on here is keen to do and shouldn't be.

 

[Sticksandsun]

An average to decent bottom 6 player who while overpaid does not effect team salary in any negative way. I do not understand why people are obsessed with him

 

[Gentle Man]

My Bolland thoughts:


Whether people like it or not, Bolland affects the game. Sometimes intangibly, sometimes tangibly...but he does.

GG ideally uses Barky to match-up against the top line, and then bolland against the 2nd line....ideally. Whether it happens is another topic for discussion.

Having Bolland alleviates some pressure on Bjuggy and Trocheck.

Does he suck at faceoffs? Yea...but like Shaq, he performs when it counts. Does he take Dumb penalties, yea sometimes. But the dude IS a pest and is at least reliable on D.

No point comparing him to Trocheck. Trocheck at center will get you points, but his line won't be as good defensively.

Bolland won't get you points, but his line will be better defensively, and again, is a pest. Just depends what you need on a given night.

GG has to adjust for it. If the other team has a Stamkos and a Tyler Johnson on different lines, having Bolland play center is ideal. but If it's a center and a winger on another line, (Toews/Kane as an example) then slot trocheck at center.

It's about adjusting the lines (bottom 2) depending on match-up

That line of Pirri Trocheck and Grimaldi needs a change. I have zero confidence in that line defensively. Zero. None. Switch Grimaldi with Jokinen please.

 

[Panthers Rock]

An average to decent bottom 6 player who while overpaid does not effect team salary in any negative way. I do not understand why people are obsessed with him

He doesn't affect the salary NOW, I agree.

But it's a 5 year contract. Within those 5 years, you have to re-sign (in theory) the following players: Huberdeau, Ekblad, Barkov, Crouse, Pirri, Trocheck, Gudbranson, and Smith (leaving out anyone else who is a more borderline Panther at this point).

Now it is too early to tell on some of those guys, but I'd like to think none of them is going to be sacrificed from this team purely because of the cap. It's too hard to tell what will happen in the future of course, but it's hard to justify giving a guy like Bolland $5.5 million.

According to General Fanager, we have this much cap space: $6,580,317
There's no way to know how much the cap will go up of course, but it's still rather annoying to have a guy like that, make that much money.

You don't have to agree with that, and I see where you're coming from. It's very possible it won't matter, but it's hard to deny that it was bad asset management. Tallon always seems to have one screwup like that, i.e. Jovanovski, but he's otherwise pretty shrewd.

 

[batting1k]

I'll start with Trocheck can't play defense. He's statistically one of the worst on our team at preventing scoring chances and high danger scoring chances despite having some of the most favorable zone starts.

Correct.

3rd on the team with an offensive zone start percentage of 56.72% (3rd on the team) and he is on the ice for 12.71 high-danger scoring chances against per 60 minutes.

 

[vendetta]

No I won't deny that, he brings defense for sure. I saw it last night no less. The issue is always going to be the same: he just makes too much for what he brings. That's all. He really should be a 4th line center, but he's playing 3rd line center. We already have a 4th line center. Now that leaves Trocheck out in the cold where he should be the 3rd line center. He's occupying a spot that maybe he shouldn't.

Honestly, if he was a winger on the 4th line, instead of say Thornton, that would probably be better. But for $5.5 million, he's just not worth that. And for 5 years, that is likely going to block Trocheck's development as a center, unless we get rid of MacKenzie, which I doubt anyone on here is keen to do and shouldn't be.

Bolland is a good to average 3rd line center that makes too much... He's not a 4 th line center... And every team has 1 or 2 bad contracts that's the nature of free agency and the only way to avoid it is to have a team entirely of your own drafted players which is impossible of course

 

[GrumpyKelly]

I like Bolland except when he is taking faceoffs. Those numbers are an abomination.

But the fact I see him taking them during every PK is a joke and falls on GG or whoever is running the show. Winning the faceoff is huge and by putting Bolland on the ice it's like they want to give up the possession. Can't help but laugh at it nowadays, it really is comical seeing him in the dot scrambling for the puck.


edit

Can't help thinking that DT is forcing GG's hand here and telling him to put Bolland out there for key situations so that he can justify that contract. It's so blatantly obvious he shouldn't be taking faceoffs.

 

[adam graves]

I'll start with Trocheck can't play defense. He's statistically one of the worst on our team at preventing scoring chances and high danger scoring chances despite having some of the most favorable zone starts.

From today's sun sentinel:

With Barkov, who had six points in seven games at the time of his injury on Oct. 22, the Panthers were 3-3-1. With Trocheck shifting from right wing to his natural spot in the middle, the Panthers went 5-4-2 and movedabove .500. Trocheck, 22, notched five goals and two assists during Barkov's absence, giving the Pittsburgh native 13 points or one less than team leader Jaromir Jagr.

Seems like his perceived defensive weaknesses are overcome by his other attributes.

 

[adam graves]

No I won't deny that, he brings defense for sure. I saw it last night no less. The issue is always going to be the same: he just makes too much for what he brings. That's all. He really should be a 4th line center, but he's playing 3rd line center. We already have a 4th line center. Now that leaves Trocheck out in the cold where he should be the 3rd line center. He's occupying a spot that maybe he shouldn't.

Honestly, if he was a winger on the 4th line, instead of say Thornton, that would probably be better. But for $5.5 million, he's just not worth that. And for 5 years, that is likely going to block Trocheck's development as a center, unless we get rid of MacKenzie, which I doubt anyone on here is keen to do and shouldn't be.

This.

All day long.

 

[batting1k]

Bolland is 36.84% in faceoffs on the penalty kill

MacKenzie is 46.97% and Jokinen is an even 50%

 

[FlaPanthers11]

From today's sun sentinel:

With Barkov, who had six points in seven games at the time of his injury on Oct. 22, the Panthers were 3-3-1. With Trocheck shifting from right wing to his natural spot in the middle, the Panthers went 5-4-2 and movedabove .500. Trocheck, 22, notched five goals and two assists during Barkov's absence, giving the Pittsburgh native 13 points or one less than team leader Jaromir Jagr.

Seems like his perceived defensive weaknesses are overcome by his other attributes.

It's not perceived. They're backed up by statistics. You asked for stats to back it up, I brought them.

He went on a good streak. He was also put in a very favorable position to succeed.

Hockey is a two way game.

 

[StrangeVision]

Correct.

3rd on the team with an offensive zone start percentage of 56.72% (3rd on the team) and he is on the ice for 12.71 high-danger scoring chances against per 60 minutes.

Not that I doubt the point, but that 12.71/60 minutes number means less than nothing without context. What exactly is a "high-danger scoring chance" and how does the rest of the team measure up?

 

[Drugs Delaney]

I can do with or without Bolland. I don't really see him as a problem in any way though.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

Not that I doubt the point, but that 12.71/60 minutes number means less than nothing without context. What exactly is a "high-danger scoring chance" and how does the rest of the team measure up?

http://blog.war-on-ice.com/new-defining-scoring-chances/

Trocheck is 17th with only Guds, Pirri, and Thornton worse.

Bolland is 10th.

 

[StrangeVision]

Do you have a source for the rankings?

 

[GrumpyKelly]

Bolland is 36.84% in faceoffs on the penalty kill

 

[FlaPanthers11]

Do you have a source for the rankings?

http://war-on-ice.com/playertable.html

 

[StrangeVision]

Well, after looking at that, I'm not really convinced. Bjugstad is a few spots below Trocheck with 11.64/60 and a raw total of one less HSCA than Trocheck.

If you look at HSC differential, Bolland is the same -19 that Trocheck is. That is to say, there have been 19 more HSCA than HSCF for both of them. Bolland is better in per 60 at 11.33. But, I mean, I'm not a statistician, but it seems kind of negligible. As far as regular centers are concerned, Bolland and Trocheck are tied at a team-worst -19 HSC.

However, to be fair, all of this is based purely on this one metric without taking into consideration anything else. It doesn't account for quality of competition or anything.

Thanks for the site, though. It seems like it could be pretty interesting.

 

[FlaPanthers11]

Well, after looking at that, I'm not really convinced. Bjugstad is a few spots below Trocheck with 11.64/60 and a raw total of one less HSCA than Trocheck.

If you look at HSC differential, Bolland is the same -19 that Trocheck is. That is to say, there have been 19 more HSCA than HSCF for both of them. Bolland is better in per 60 at 11.33. But, I mean, I'm not a statistician, but it seems kind of negligible. As far as regular centers are concerned, Bolland and Trocheck are tied at a team-worst -19 HSC.

However, to be fair, all of this is based purely on this one metric without taking into consideration anything else. It doesn't account for quality of competition or anything.

Thanks for the site, though. It seems like it could be pretty interesting.

Yeah I recently got the idea to explore a bit into this after reading a Scott Cullen article evaluating D men based on the metric. Here it is if anyone cares to see his analysis.

http://www.tsn.ca/statistically-speaking-measuring-d-by-quality-of-shots-against-1.391447

 

[SoupyFIN]

So the argument that he brings faceoff wins isn't very justified (in fact he's lost the most), ESPECIALLY at his price point. And there-in lies the biggest issues, he isn't just lacking usefulness, he's super overpaid for what he does.

Umm, argument? I can't think of anyone on this board that has brought up Bolland's faceoff skills as a positive, excluding the praise he got for winning that one which lead to Ekblad's tying goal vs. TB last week. Quite the contrary, people have acknowledged dating back to the beginning of last season that he isn't good at it.

No I won't deny that, he brings defense for sure. I saw it last night no less. The issue is always going to be the same: he just makes too much for what he brings. That's all. He really should be a 4th line center, but he's playing 3rd line center. We already have a 4th line center. Now that leaves Trocheck out in the cold where he should be the 3rd line center. He's occupying a spot that maybe he shouldn't.

Honestly, if he was a winger on the 4th line, instead of say Thornton, that would probably be better. But for $5.5 million, he's just not worth that. And for 5 years, that is likely going to block Trocheck's development as a center, unless we get rid of MacKenzie, which I doubt anyone on here is keen to do and shouldn't be.

Bolland is blocking the guy who should be our 3C, or should he? Let's see, last year Barkov got injured, Trocheck played top6 and produced. Bjugstad got injured, Trocheck played top6 and produced. This season, Barkov got injured, Trocheck played top6 and produced.

See a pattern there? It's not as much about the Trocheck as a center vs. Trocheck as a winger -battle, but rather what role is he put into and with whom.