The 2015 C Draft (open/closed edition) - Draft is on and open to anyone.

[seventieslord]

It is remarkable how little we know about Oliver Seibert:

1899-1900 Berlin H/C * WOHL -- 8 10 0 10 -- -- -- -- -- --

1900-1901 Berlin H/C * WOHL -- 6 13 0 13 -- -- -- -- -- --

1901-1902 Berlin H/C * WOHL -- 8 17 ** 0 17 ** -- -- -- -- -- --

1902-1903 Guelph OAC * OHA-SrA -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

1903-1904 Berlin H/C * WOHL -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

1904-1905 Canadian Soo Algonquins * IHL -- 1 0 0 0 0 -- -- -- -- --
1905-1906** DID NOT PLAY - SUSPENDED -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

1908-1909 Berlin Dutchmen * OPHL -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Totals 23 40 0 40 0 0 0 0 0 0


he's one of the 3-5 most puzzling HHOFers; two of the others are going to be drafted here. I can't see myself taking any of them as anything but spares, just cause it's hard to justify them.

 

[VanIslander]

The Yorkton Terriers select goaltender Herbert Collins, the two-time Stanley Cup champion (1894, 1895) who continued where Tom Paton had left off, backstopping the Montreal MAAA from 1893 and played in Montreal until 1899. He easily played more games than any other goalie that decade in the highest leagues of the time. He would have won the Vezina in 1894, 1895 and 1898 if there had been such an award, according to Ultimate Hockey.

Of the Montreal team, Collins, the goalkeeper, is known all over Canada as the best man playing in that position... his wonderful stops are features of every game he plays a part in.

According to a poster who went through newspaper archives:

Games Played:
Herb Collins (Crystals/MAAA) = 50
F. S. Stocking (Que) = 42
Fred Chittick (Ott) = 31
Robert W. Jones (Vics) = 21

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=293965

retro-Vezina

1890 T. Paton
1891 T. Paton
1892 A. Morel
1893 T. Paton
1894 H. Collins
1895 H. Collins
1896 F. Chittick
1897 F. Chittick
1898 H. Collins
1899 J. McKenna

 

[seventieslord]

Yorkton selects Larry Cahan. when I referred to Al MacNeil as the best pre expansion defenseman left, I wasn't thinking about Cahan, who got into 383 games in the O6 era. He was typically employed by weaker teams and was rarely a full-timer, but was about the 20th-30th best defenseman on the continent for a decade. Following expansion, Cahan played another 280 games for Oakland and L.A., serving as captain and playing a remarkable 24 minutes a game at his age, supporting the notion that through the mid 60s, he was one of the best defensemen not employed full-time in the NHL (as does the fact that he was a four time WHL all-star).

Cahan had outstanding size for the era, and was a physical and very strong player, though not really a troublemaker. Call him a poor man's Jack Evans.

 

[VanIslander]

The Flin Flon Bombers select Christian Bordeleau, the NHL and WHA championship-winning pivot who scored a goal in the 1969 Stanley Cup Habs win then returned to juniors to become a Memorial Cup star but who couldn't break into the line-up full time until he went to St. Louis where he had a decent season including a significant 7 game-winning goals before jumping to the WHA and immediately centering Winnipeg's top line all the way to the cup final, going on to record three 100+ point seasons and had 9 points against the Jets in the 1977 WHA championship for Quebec. He had 50 points in 53 WHA playoff games and retired 8th in WHA career assists and points. He was inducted into the WHA Hall of Fame.

... gifted with great speed and a knack for goal scoring...

 

[seventieslord]

The Flin Flon Bombers select Christian Bordeleau, the NHL and WHA championship-winning pivot who scored a goal in the 1969 Stanley Cup Habs win then returned to juniors to become a Memorial Cup star but who couldn't break into the line-up full time until he went to St. Louis where he had a decent season including a significant 7 game-winning goals before jumping to the WHA and immediately centering Winnipeg's top line all the way to the cup final, going on to record three 100+ point seasons and had 9 points against the Jets in the 1977 WHA championship for Quebec. He had 50 points in 53 WHA playoff games and retired 8th in WHA career assists and points. He was inducted into the WHA Hall of Fame.

Bordeleau was, offensively, a great WHA scorer but also good NHL scorer. He's kind of the mirror image of Walton, because of his 7 best seasons, 5 were from the WHA (instead of 2). He very much deserves to be here as a scoring line center - with VsX scores of 72, 65, 62, 62, 62, 38, 29. (Big dropoff after 5th best season though)

Basically he put up the kind of numbers Andrew Cassels did for 10 years, but for 5 years.

 

[seventieslord]

Flin Flon Bombers also select Alexander Martynyuk, RW. Martynyuk didn't have a long time on the Soviet national team, but was over a point per game internationally (21GP, 24 Pts). He placed 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 8th, 9th, 13th and 14th in the soviet league in scoring, with converted VsX scores of 97, 83, 78, 66, 66, 47, 44. I've said before my formula needs tweaking downwards for guys from 1970-1988, but even if those numbers are 25% high, he fits right in with the best NHL wingers left at this time.

 

[Sanf]

The Yorkton Terriers select goaltender Herbert Collins, the two-time Stanley Cup champion (1894, 1895) who continued where Tom Paton had left off, backstopping the Montreal MAAA from 1893 and played in Montreal until 1899. He easily played more games than any other goalie that decade in the highest leagues of the time. He would have won the Vezina in 1894, 1895 and 1898 if there had been such an award, according to Ultimate Hockey.

Interesting. I checked and Frank Stocking wasn´t on anyones list. From this decade it´s harder to find direct comparasions of goaltender, but I don´t see Collins clear cut better than Stocking.

For example many of you know Arthur Farrells early hockey guides.


ICE HOCKEY and ICE POLO GUIDE 1901 by Arthur Farrell

Mr. F.S Stocking goal-keeper of the Quebec team and generally recognized throughout Canada as the peer of his position, has kindly contributed the following hints on goal-minding_

Frank Stocking career could be pretty much summarized to this quote.

The Montreal Gazette - Feb 8, 1897

Stocking, however played a remarkably good game in goals. He is an old hand and did he get proper support his team would win more victories.

Only direct quote about Collins vs. Stocking that I have yet find is from 1894 and it doesn´t make us any wiser.

The Quebec Saturday Budget - Feb 10, 1894

... which gave Stocking at the one end and Collins at the other frequent opportunities to prove themselves the excellent goal keepers that they are.

George "Whitey" Merritt is dark horse in this race, but much more difficult to compare to others.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Malecek could use a playmaking winger so I'll select J.P. Dumont for Moose Jaw.

Dumont had VsX scores of 68, 61, 59, 58, 53, 49 with 3 seasons over 40 assists. He also led the Predators in scoring twice (tied with Arnott one of those years).

 

[VanIslander]

Interesting. I checked and Frank Stocking wasn´t on anyones list.

Him and Chittick I would've included if Herbert Collins had been drafted earlier in the year.

Alexander Martynyuk, RW

Not the best Soviet available imo but deserving of this draft certainly.

 

[seventieslord]

Yorkton needs a #1 defensemen so they will select Dennis Kearns, D.

Kearns appears to have mostly been an "offenseman", but he was more relied on in all situations compared to the other similar players available and therefore deserves a higher selection and a higher spot in these depth charts.

He played 22.9 minutes a game for 677 games for admittedly awful Canucks teams. Best defense VsX scores: 75, 72, 70, 59, 57, 47, 29.

 

[seventieslord]

Him and Chittick I would've included if Herbert Collins had been drafted earlier in the year.

Agree. I think their place is definitely somewhere after he is taken.

Not the best Soviet available imo but deserving of this draft certainly.

If you're referring to defensemen or goalies, sure, that's possible.

If you're referring to another forward, I'm pretty sure I disagree.

But there's no need to be mysterious, we aren't in a competition and can talk about it openly.

 

[VanIslander]

Weyburn Badgers select a leader everywhere he played, 6'2 223 lbs. Brendan Witt, one of the most prolific hitters in the game, he was consistently Top-10 in hits and even led the league with 322 hits in 2000-01. The rearguard had ten seasons of 20+ minutes of play, 890 NHL games over 14 NHL seasons with 1424 PIM.

At his best, Brendan Witt is everything a team could want out of a physical defensive defenseman.

Witt has the ability to be a presence on the ice, the sort of intangible that is so poorly appreciated in salary arbitration or on the stat sheet. He is at his best when putting up triple-digit PIMs, playing a tough, in-your-face style of play. Witt's skating is average but perfectly sufficient for a defensive defenseman, and his point production is negligible. He dishes out crushing hits but does not take himself out of the play to do so, and his judgement in this regard improves yearly. When he is on his game, Witt will clear the crease assiduously. When not, he will stand aside and watch. The skillset is not the problem with Witt, but rather attitude and focus.

There are times when Witt seems to have a chip on his shoulder a mile wide, and others when he can carry the team. Personal difficulties have led to long stretches of indifferent play from a player whose effectiveness depends on his willingness to clear the crease and keep opposing players honest after the whistle.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bmarshall63/witt_profile.html

 

[VanIslander]

If you're referring to defensemen or goalies, sure, that's possible.

Yeah, I am. (You probably know at least 2 of the 3 I'm thinking of.)

 

[Hobnobs]

Weyburn Badgers select a leader everywhere he played, 6'2 223 lbs. Brendan Witt, one of the most prolific hitters in the game, he was consistently Top-10 in hits and even led the league with 322 hits in 2000-01. The rearguard had ten seasons of 20+ minutes of play, 890 NHL games over 14 NHL seasons with 1424 PIM.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/bmarshall63/witt_profile.html

To think that this once was a defenseman Caps refused to give up for superstars. Never lived up to that potential but solid pick here I think.

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah, I am. (You probably know at least 2 of the 3 I'm thinking of.)

Well sure I do. I was the one who collected lists, and even if I wasn't - all the players are posted in this thread!

 

[seventieslord]

Weyburn follows up with a third defenseman, a good mobile, puck moving kind of guy to play with Ashbee. Jaroslav Spacek, D.

Spacek played in the NHL for 880 games, playing 21.3 minutes per game, for teams only slightly below average. Also notably, he played 61 more games in the playoffs, including a run as the far-and-away #2 on the finalist Oilers. He also scored 23 points in 74 major international games, including a single point in 22 games in best-on-best tournaments. He's a very useful all-around player at this level, particularly on the PP, where he scored 160 of his NHL points.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Just thinking aloud, Walton and Seibert also seem like they could benefit from playmaking wingers. Who are the options?

Huselius - seems like he will work
Adam Brown - had one big year assist wise and seems like the cream of the crop in terms of glue guys
Taylor Hall - 2x top 10 in assists

Who am I missing?

 

[seventieslord]

Just thinking aloud, Walton and Seibert also seem like they could benefit from playmaking wingers. Who are the options?

Huselius - seems like he will work
Adam Brown - had one big year assist wise and seems like the cream of the crop in terms of glue guys
Taylor Hall - 2x top 10 in assists

Who am I missing?

Brown has upside more suitable for depth lines, but yeah I was thinking that either way he needs to be in this draft because we might find ourselves in a pinch for glue guys on scoring lines, and he is probably the best for that.

Hall has to get selected eventually, so he's a good option. That's a top-end resume no one's going to touch.

 

[VanIslander]

Are you trying to influence others' decisions or just thinking out loud?

Pick, man, pick! And back it up.

 

[VanIslander]

Yorkton Terriers select right wing/rover Jack Armytage, who captained the Winnipeg Victorias from its inception in 1891 to his retirement in 1897, scoring the overtime goal, his second of the match to make it a 3-2 victory, in the first ever Manitoba championship game in 1892 after having also scored two including the winner the game previously, winning 4-3, in what was a Best-of-3 series. Armytage is more famously known for his heroics four years later when the Winnipeg captain scored the Stanley Cup winning goal and assist in a 2-0 Vics win over Montreal in 1896. Bain would assume captaincy after Armytage's retirement in 1897 but it would take half a decade before Winnipeg would win its next two Stanley Cups.

An excellent player, a brilliant leader, and best remembered as the man who first organized a hockey club in the City of Winnipeg on November 3, 1890. This forward was captain until his retirement after the 1897 season. One of his greatest games was on February 14, 1896 in a sudden death game for the Stanley Cup when Jack Armytage scored the winning goal in 2-0 victory over Montreal; the first time the Cup came West.

http://www.mbhockeyhalloffame.ca/honoured/players.html?category=9&id=41

In 1891 the Vics versus Pegs rivalry in the city of Winnipeg was the scene of Armytage's emergence as a leader:

Terrible ice conditions immediately hindered the finesse players of both clubs. A rougher brand of hockey was taken up in combination with a very careful passing game. This roughness became particularly apparent mid-way through the first half, when Armytage was involved in a nasty collision with Beckett. Army was badly cut and lost two teeth. He requested and was granted a short intermission, and returned to the ice surface seven minutes later, bandaged and ready to continue. At the half, neither team was able to establish a lead, nor concede one.

The Vics were unable to generate solid team play in the second. The ice worsened and the faster Vics had trouble moving the puck smoothly. Pinned in their own end, they conceded two goals, almost in succession. At the final whistle, the Pegs had taken it 2-0.

Although the Vics had lost, it was clear they had made the correct decision in awarding Jack Armytage the captaincy. Army would have a dramatic impact on the rest of the season, and on the whole history of the franchise.

http://winnipegvics.wordpress.com/

Winnipeg Victorias won Manitoba's first ever championship in 1892:

The fans were treated to a great finish, as Armytage again demonstrated his heroics, pulling the Vics ahead out of a 3-3 tie before the final whistle.

This set up the final and decisive match between the clubs on March 12th, 1892. Originally scheduled for the previous week, the game was postponed due to soft weather and poor ice conditions. The extra wait was well worth it for the spectators who packed the Thistle for the match.

Even early on, fighting in hockey was seen as a disgraceful and desperate act. Early commentators suggested that too much fighting would ruin the game, and that sportsmanship and respect for officials were qualities that made a player great. It was so for this final match of the 1891-92 season, that was said to be “for blood”.

The first half was played with increasing intensity, culminating in a scuffle at the half that found Jack Armitage on his back on the ice. Goals were scored by Girdlestone for the Pegs, and McCullogh and Armytage for the Vics. Early in the second half, the score was evened at two by Dennison on some pretty passing by Fred Ashe.

The score remained unchanged until the final whistle. As this was a deciding contest, the teams were given a 5 minute intermission, then returned to the ice for a game of “next goal wins”. After some early overtime heroics by the Pegs keeper Tart Stowe, the captain Armytage put one past him, thus ending a scrappy championship match, to say the least.

And so the Winnipeg Victorias win the cup, donated by T.W. Anderson, and the glory of Manitoba’s first hockey championship.

http://winnipegvics.wordpress.com


Not only did Armytage score the stunning first goal, but he also assisted splendidly on the second goal of the 2-0 Stanley Cup triumph in 1896:

The Montreal men appeared on the ice at 8.45 and were given a cordial reception. A few minutes later Armytage appeared on the scene with his trustworthy warriors in the rear... Flett, by his wonderful lifts made the spectators open their mouths in amazement; a particularly fine one was taken advantage of by the forwards, who followed up closely, Howard got the puck in the corner, passed in front of the posts, and Armytage placed fairly between the posts. Time 10 minutes. The Winnipeg yell went up from a dozen different portions of the rink, where little knots of westerners had secured places of vantage.

Early in the second game , Bain was sent to the wall for playing off-side. The "Pegs" were thrown on the defensive for a while, and Shirley Davidson's rushes looked dangerous at time. Every man on the "Peg" forward line was working like a Trojan. Armytage made one of his old time rushes up the side, evading the Montreal defence men, and a decidedly lively scrimmage took place around the Montreal goal. Campbell managed to entice the disc past the Montreal goal keeper, and there was jubiliation again in the ranks of the Winnipeg contingent. They surmised rightly that the victory was already theirs.

Jack Armytage was captain of the Vics. The forward was among the fittest of players resulting in him being a great second half player. In the first challenge, his rushes were so impressive that even the Montreal fans cheered him. The 25 year old Fergus, Ontario native also acted as the team's coach.

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2007/03/1896-stanley-cup-champion-winnipeg.html

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Are you trying to influence others' decisions or just thinking out loud?

Pick, man, pick! And back it up.

The whole point of this draft is "trying to influence others' decisions," right? I mean what was the point of all those lists?

 

[VanIslander]

what was the point of all those lists?

I thought it was to stop any ONE rogue wack homer pick (we've had a few in 2015).

Every pick needs another GM's similar judgement. One can't draft from one's own list, only from those of others and shared lists.

It's a failsafe system that stops anyone from buzz sawing through reason to a pick that no one else agrees with.

I see the logic in that.

 

[seventieslord]

Are you trying to influence others' decisions or just thinking out loud?

Pick, man, pick! And back it up.

And what if he was? This thing is all about openness, cards on the table, discussing who belongs and who doesn't, and also who belongs where. The idea is we'll draft players where more consensus exists instead of the pets of one person or throwing guys at the wall to see if they stick.

As for Armytage, he takes a scoring line spot away from one of the guys I was hoping would have one here, but it's really hard to deny he belongs. Impossible, actually.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

I thought it was to stop any ONE rogue wack homer pick (we've had a few in 2015).

Every pick needs another GM's similar judgement. One can't draft from one's own list, only from those of others and shared lists.

It's a failsafe system that stops anyone from buzz sawing through reason to a pick that no one else agrees with.

I see the logic.

Sure, but there's no GMs here, just four teams being fleshed out. If 7 of us collaborated to create those lists, what's wrong with taking a few minutes to discuss an option?

I have more fun with the rhyme and reason of fitting units together, than just grabbing a favorite one other person submitted too.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

Moose Jaw needs a #2 defender next to the big RHS Larry Cahan, so I'll grab Jeff Norton, D

Norton averaged 21.4 estimated minutes per game over 799 games. He saw a lot of PP time and will serve as an asset on a top unit.

Overpass's adjusted numbers: 799 GP, 34-221-254 ESP (25 per season) / 23-149-172 PPP (17, 52% usage, .95) / 28%PK, 1.13

With that really low PK usage, you can see Norton was basically an offenseman, which is par for the course for strong PP options at this level.