The 2015 C Draft (open/closed edition) - Draft is on and open to anyone.

[seventieslord]

I guess here's where I go to bat for the guys who I named that no one else did:

Nine bolded names are my "A" suggestions, and the 4 bolded paragraphs are my "A+" suggestions.

Al MacNeil, D - Stands out as the best pre-expansion NHL defenseman left. He lasted for 6.4 seasons' worth of games, all in the O6 era, for teams that were actually quite good on the whole. Lee Fogolin Sr was just selected last draft and played just as much, but for poor teams. MacNeil has a better resume than Fogolin.

Barrett Jackman - a better Garth Butcher. Has played 20.1 minutes a game for teams slightly above average, and has an outstanding PK resume - 47% usage for teams 11% better than average. I shouldn't have to tell you what kind of skill set he has. Those TOI figures are excellent for a non-PP guy.

Benny Woit - didn't stick in the NHL that long, but was a versatile multi position guy and the best team in the NHL had room for him on their roster. It wouldn't break my heart if he missed out, but he seems like a worthy spare at this point (after going way too high for a few years).

Craig Muni - only 18.5 minutes a game on his career but for very strong teams, and with absolutely no PP time. Feather in his cap - being top-4 in minutes for three Oilers cup wins.

Don Simmons - another one who wouldn't break my heart all that much if he missed. Seemed like a "top-10 remaining" kind of guy, and the 249 O6 games he got into is pretty close to a guy like Gerry McNeil.

Evgeny Paladiev - not a guy I'm a huge advocate for, but it seemed like the right time. I had him as the top soviet left, but it looks like one prominent poster will disagree. I'm all ears.

Floyd Smith - His best 7 vsx scores total 303, making him a very strong offensive option for a 3rd/4th line. He was a physical and strong defensive player too.

Frantisek Cernik - has never been taken before, but my CSSR study has him as the most accomplished Czech league scorer available, and he's a winger, where it's much easier to get in than on center. His CSSR vsx scores put him right in line with the strongest NHL wingers available such as Dumont, Ryder and Vrbata. He placed 5, 5, 6, 10, 11, 12, 14 domestically, but scored only 30 points in 64 major international games.

Garth Boesch - it might actually be too early for him. A shot blocking specialist who lasted on the deepest blueline in the league and won 3 cups, but he did only play 3 seasons worth of games. Even Hugh Bolton got into more.

Gerry Hart - probably the biggest heartbreaker here. Hart was a defenseman any fan of old time hockey would have loved. He was built like a fire hydrant, tough, physical, a leader and he had heart. And numerically he really shines. He played 20.89 mintues a game (no PP!) for teams 11% better than average. He sure would have looked good on that Isles dynasty.

Jack Findlay - had decent offensive (and apparently defensive) results. Iain Fyffe had him as the best pre-1900 forward left. Given his retro selke (however ultimate hockey came to that conclusion) there has to be a place for him somewhere here.

Jaroslav Pouzar - I can almost copy and paste what I wrote about Cernik here. "my CSSR study has him as the most accomplished Czech league scorer available, and he's a winger, where it's much easier to get in than on center. His CSSR vsx scores put him right in line with the strongest NHL wingers available such as Dumont, Ryder and Vrbata." He placed 3, 3, 8, 13 in czech league scoring and scored 53 points in 75 major international games, with the highlight being 3rd in scoring in the 1980 olympics. what's more, in his 30s he came to the NHL and was a bit part on three Oilers cup winners. Players 31 and older weren't that common at the time. His career NHL 0.44 PPG is similar to what Bob Gainey, Al MacAdam, Bob Nystrom and Craig Ramsay were posting, all of whom were about the same age in that era.

Kevin Miller - 271 in his best 7 Vsx makes him short of scoring line potential at this level, but he'd make a good scorer for a checker. "though not a big player, Miller uses what size he has to play a rugged game. And he does have a mean streak. he will click out. he will fight. He will hit hard. He will be confrontational. he will hack and crosscheck and elbow... his talentas are more suited to center than RW, but the wings are loaded there... it is always an advantage to have a RW with a center's skills, shiftiness, speed and sense."

Lars-Erik Lundvall - I'm not sure why I listed him. Clearly I was just including him because I was including Nilsson and their RW was already taken.

Ryan O'Reilly - Really shocked no one else named a guy who never takes a penalty, is a possession king, and though he is just in his 7th season, would have a 317 7-year Vsx if he suffered a season ending injury right now and the 2nd leading scorer got 100 points, and has significant selke votes (6th, 12th, 14th). For my money, he may be the top checking line center here.

Ryane Clowe - 301 7-year vsx for a guy who can play a scoring line power forward role in real life, or a "goon who can play" at this level. Maybe I jumped the gun on him?

Yevgeny Zimin - I also listed Martynyuk and Bodunov, and they're much more deserving than Zimin, but I think Zimin can fit in here as well. His vsx converted from the USSR league is 410 (which I think is high and the system needs some adjustment) but even after those adjustments I think I'd have to conclude he's right in that dumont/ryder/vrbata range (with martynyuk and bodunov higher than that).

 

[VanIslander]

Are we all to pimp now the guys we thought worthy than no one else did?

 

[seventieslord]

Are we all to pimp now the guys we thought worthy than no one else did?

you can if you want. it's the only way they have a hope of being picked, right? I felt I had a duty to my 17.

You have your work cut out for you if you choose that route!

 

[seventieslord]

The ineligible list currently makes up 50% of the text in this thread. Do we really need it?

edit: I guess we do, since the other ones have been edited out from their threads.

 

[chaosrevolver]

Going to bat for those that I picked:

Andy McDonald - Great skater who has a six year sum vsx of 341. This puts him just below someone like Brendan Morrison. In addition, McDonald had a year where he received some selke votes and was a major player for the Ducks on the PP and in their cup win in 2007 (McDonald finished 2nd in goals). I don't think he's a top line guy here, but I think he could fit on a second line.

Antoine Vermette - Seventies and I have talked a lot about this guy. He missed the cut for him but I love Vermette. He can slot in any line depending on how you build them. With 449 points in 868 games (includes 4 20 goal seasons and five years of 40 or more points), he brings solid offense to the table as he was a member of both Ottawa and Columbus' PP. In addition, Vermette has had four years where he received Selke votes, including two Top-16 finishes. His shorthanded resume is impressive as he currently has the second most SHG in their career by an active player, only behind Marian Hossa. Finally, and this should not be overlooked, along with all that I have already mentioned, his career Faceoff percentage of 56.1% makes him a very valuable asset down the middle.

Brooks Orpik - I view Orpik as the perfect third pairing defenseman. Averaged 19:53 in his career but has seen a huge spike in his minutes since 2007, and has been a consistent 20+ minute guy since then (despite getting no PP time). He is a defensive and physical beast who I'm sure if I did more research, is probably one of the top shot block and hit defenders since 2007.

Don Gallinger - Short career with a cool (and sad) story surrounding it. Very good scorer while in the league. With that being said, starting to wonder myself if he's really worth being in this draft with that short of a career.

Jim Conacher(LW/C) - He was 2nd in the NHL in goals in 1949, and 19th in 1948. In assists, he had seasons in which he ranked 10th, 10th, and 16th. He was 6th and 19th in total points in his two best seasons. Just to me, that is enough to go in this draft (less competition or not).

Murray Armstrong - Another guy with finishes in the top ten for goals, assists and points but also another guy I sort of questioned putting on here due to his length. Interestingly enough, he played for the Regina Army Caps of the SSHL for a year (and destroyed might I add).

Steve Ott(C/W) - I think he could fit on a 3rd or 4th line easily here. A big-time pest who can throw a bit and is pretty reliable defensively. Add his 4 30+ point seasons and 5 10+ goal seasons and he has proven to be a reliable and useful player on the teams he has played on. Also pretty versatile with positions making him at worse, a valuable spare.

Willy Lindstrom - Good scorer and quite fast. Had a pretty solid run in the WHA and a decent run in the NHL. Five 20 goal seasons and someone who was on the PP a lot. Also had a knack of stepping up in the playoffs. At times he also threw his weight around as well (once he got used to the NA style game). He also played a defensive role on the powerful early 80's Oilers, but still showed up with 13 points in '83 and 10 points in '84.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't have anything particularly bad to say about your guys, but a few questions/comments about these ones:

Don Gallinger - Short career with a cool (and sad) story surrounding it. Very good scorer while in the league. With that being said, starting to wonder myself if he's really worth being in this draft with that short of a career.

Obviously by 7-year prime measuring he doesn't look good. There'd be a case for him getting a bit of forgiveness for his short career if he had the best 3 or 4-year peak among available guys, but he doesn't even have that. His best 3 seasons total 176, with the standard for NHL guys being Quinn (226) and Walton (238). Bottom end for a scoring line one dimensional center in this thing is someone like Guy Charron, and even he is 191 in his best 3 years, with obviously better longevity, so I just don't see how he'd fit.

Jim Conacher(LW/C) - He was 2nd in the NHL in goals in 1949, and 19th in 1948. In assists, he had seasons in which he ranked 10th, 10th, and 16th. He was 6th and 19th in total points in his two best seasons. Just to me, that is enough to go in this draft (less competition or not).

Actually is really close to the best NHL offensive wingers here, if you go just by best three seasons. No, we probably shouldn't do that. But, considering he can play two positions he would probably look good as a spare. I'd consider taking him.

Murray Armstrong - Another guy with finishes in the top ten for goals, assists and points but also another guy I sort of questioned putting on here due to his length. Interestingly enough, he played for the Regina Army Caps of the SSHL for a year (and destroyed might I add).

As a non-physical, non-defensive guy, I judge him on his offense, and with scores of 84, 55, 52, 50, he does look better than a few NHL centers who were drafted for offense. But I don't think he even cracks the Guy Charron line (loses 250-241) even when we're being really generous and looking at only 4 best seasons. So I can't imagine fitting him.

Willy Lindstrom - Good scorer and quite fast. Had a pretty solid run in the WHA and a decent run in the NHL. Five 20 goal seasons and someone who was on the PP a lot. Also had a knack of stepping up in the playoffs. At times he also threw his weight around as well (once he got used to the NA style game). He also played a defensive role on the powerful early 80's Oilers, but still showed up with 13 points in '83 and 10 points in '84.

For some reason, I like Lindstrom. I think it's cause I can recall a bearded Willy holding the cup in a book I had as a kid.

But what can you tell us about his role on the Oilers? Was it really defensive or was he just not on the top 2 lines? I want a reason to pick him. I did before, in 2010, in a lower draft, and stuck him on a 4th because he didn't quite have the offense for a scoring line, and I could not find anything complimentary about what he was good at other than secondary scoring. Including WHA, I have him at 278 for 7-year vsx, which is not scoring line material here, but more in line with guys with known intangibles slotted for checking lines (adam brown, rick dudley, darcy rota, ted irvine, kevin miller, ken schinkel), so I'm not opposed to putting him there on the basis of talent, but does he have the checking game they have?

 

[seventieslord]

Seven VI picks that catch my eye and could be worthwhile:

Kari Lehtonen: I never realized it, but he's been quite solid. 5 sv% points above league average for over 500 games. mind you, he should have 700 GP by now with how brittle he is.

Andrew Ference: He's played 19 minutes a game for average teams for 900 games. That alone puts him over the "Garth Butcher line" which would get him in this draft. But he has no niche that I can see. He just plays. Kind of like a poor man's Brad Stuart. He's not an offensive or particularly physical guy and he wouldn't make anyone top-x lists of best defensive defensemen either. His list of leaderboard appearances in any category is NIL, aside from GP. Coaches like him decently enough to play him for #4 minutes for 15 years though. I wouldn't take him but I can see the appeal. I should have considered him closer than I did.

Gary Sabourin: Is he a checker type player? Cause with that offense, there could definitely be a place for him on 3rd/4th lines. I had overlooked him.

Brent Gilchrist: There's really nothing wrong with Gilchrist. He just lacks the proven offense, and therefore two-way ability, that some others still available to select have going for them.

Sidorenkov, Horesovsky, Gimayev: It appears VI has them above the Paladiev line. I'm open to that possibility. Let's hear the case!

A few I have questions about:

Larry Lund: Was he a defensive or physical guy? Were you thinking about him for a bottom 6? Cause offensively his record is not all that good. Compare to Bordeleau, a bonafide top-6 center here.

Dennis Ververgaert: Can he check? He has good enough offense to play in the bottom six for sure, but at this level he's outclassed as a scorer.

Jiri Hrdina: I know he played a lower line role in the NHL, so the assumption is he was a checker, but scouting reports talk about him as a finesse player with little else to him. It's kinda counterintuitive, I know. But if he was one dimensional and we're judging him on offense, he has no place here. If there was more to his game can you help back it up so we know where his true place is?

Milan Chalupa: What makes him the best Czech defenseman remaining? I see the 82 major international games - that's a great start.

I scratch my head at:

Sylvain Turgeon: This is the only quintessentially one-dimensional scoring forward you have on that list, from what I can see. He topped 50 points three times despite playing in the 80s and early 90s. He has no place here. There are way more skilled softies out there. Dumont topped 50 points 5 times and league scoring was 25% lower in his prime.

Frantisek Musil: Really? 18.2 minutes per game for bad teams? And poor penalty killing numbers too. What's to like?

Tom Watt, Harry Neale: How can we draft guys like that when there are coaches like Tortorella and Carlyle whe each have more NHL games coached than these two do combined? And a cup each? Ditto Sid Abel, a four time cup finalist.

Gord Lane: A career #6-7 defenseman. Enough said.

Gary Doak: Well at least he's not Gord Lane, but a 17 minute player is not an all-time great, even if he was on some pretty good Bruins squads.

Antti Niemi: Just 366 games played to date, at league average level. We can do better.

Rich Leduc: OK, please tell me he was loaded with intangibles because his offense is just bad.

Alfie Moore: ...Just why?

Kevin McClelland, Don Saleski: I get it, we need tough guys and role players. But there are still plenty who were more useful offensively and defensively than guys like this.

 

[MadArcand]

Gary Leeman is on my list, so not only on tonyd's...

Rob Niedermayer is listed twice, once in 3-times and once in 2-times chosen lists.

Players on other lists that I overlooked even though I shouldn't have given my criteria:
Mike Rathje
Mike Sillinger
Curtis Brown - would definitely have made my list
Dwayne Roloson
Jeff Norton - ditto
Matt Cullen - ditto
Shawn Horcoff
Steve Konroyd

Players on other lists that I thought long taken and didn't even bother to search for:
Cam Ward - that's some absurd drop right here
David Legwand
Eric Vail
JP Dumont
John Tortorella - seriously?
Bryan Berard - he's not been picked?! I was sure he's gone when I picked Tverdovsky a draft up...
Dainius Zubrus
Paul Holmgren
Roman Cechmanek
Barret Jackman
Craig Muni
Grant Ledyard
Stephane Quintal
Alf Smith

Players on other lists I took a closer look at but decided not to include them on the list:
Tommy Salo - surprisingly highly unimpressive SV% finishes
Karel Gut - there's been better Czech HoF D-men available
Travis Zajac - too mediocre
Sergei Nemchinov - way too mediocre. Killed way less penalties than I thought.
Kelly Buchberger - too horrible offense while actually a poor fighter
Terry Carkner - too mediocre
Yanic Perreault - one-trick pony
Brooks Orpik - personal dislike
Frantisek Cernik - better Czech HoF forwards available
Jaroslav Pouzar - ditto
Kevin Miller - kinda meh
Ryan O'Reilly - jack of all trades master of none. Also an *******. Might still be good choice on merit alone, though.
Ryan Clowe - mediocre at best
Byron Dafoe - on second look, maybe should've picked him
Chris Simon - close
Joel Quenneville - I swear I had him on the list but culled him to make it less Whalery
Wayne Babych - meh
Brent Gilchrist - jack of all trades master of none II.
Jiri Dopita - came really close to picking him
Kari Lehtonen - kinda meh
Johnny Oduya - too little impact
Randy Ladouceur - too much bottom pairing minutes
Scott Thornton - way less special teams participation than one'd expect
Sylvain Turgeon - mediocre

 

[Hobnobs]

For some reason, I like Lindstrom. I think it's cause I can recall a bearded Willy holding the cup in a book I had as a kid.

But what can you tell us about his role on the Oilers? Was it really defensive or was he just not on the top 2 lines? I want a reason to pick him. I did before, in 2010, in a lower draft, and stuck him on a 4th because he didn't quite have the offense for a scoring line, and I could not find anything complimentary about what he was good at other than secondary scoring. Including WHA, I have him at 278 for 7-year vsx, which is not scoring line material here, but more in line with guys with known intangibles slotted for checking lines (adam brown, rick dudley, darcy rota, ted irvine, kevin miller, ken schinkel), so I'm not opposed to putting him there on the basis of talent, but does he have the checking game they have?

He was kind of like Oilers version of Franzen/Holmström in regards to playoffs but he was better defensively than both. Was he an ace defensively? Probably not. Good enough to get shadow assignments for both Oilers and Sweden but he wasnt exactly a Selke threat. I'd say somewhere above average from the games Ive watched.

A clutch utility player who would score important goals in the playoffs. Good on the PP, can fill in as a PKer.

 

[tony d]

Glad to see this was successful, I did my list largely last night, good way to spend a Friday night:

Some comments:

- Darryl Sutter, Roxy Beaudro, Wayne Babych being only on my list; Figured all 3 would be more prominent. I remember drafting Beaudro in the 2010 MLD I did with Mad Arcand, my first draft. The pick, I thought, was a decent 1. Sutter and babych all had solid careers and could have been picked here.

- Dennis Kearns: I know he went in an ATD a few yrs. ago and I contemplated adding him to my list but I didn't, maybe I should of.

-I strongly considered adding Witt as well but reading up on him and seeing the drop he had seen I was unsure of if to add him.

- Good to see Brent Ashton on 3 lists; One of those guys I always liked growing up. Had some decent goal scoring seasons as well.

- Tony Mckegney: He was on my list and good to see he was on 2 other lists. Solid goal scorer, I've drafted him twice in the past.

- Rick Lapointe: Another guy I strongly considered; I drafted him in the past as well.

- John Tortorella: On 4 lists? Really. I briefly considered him but thought him to be to toxic to be included here

- Dan Quinn: On my list too, not the best off ice reputation but always a solid on ice player

- Barry Ashbee: On top of my list, had a good but short career

- Andy Blair: I had him in the past, good to see him heavily included

Overall this was a good project, when will we commence with drafting?

 

[chaosrevolver]

I think with Torts we have to look at more than just what happened in Vancouver.

He was a damn good coach for TB and NYR. Won a cup in TB, and had success at varying levels for both teams. Not sure if any coaches left have the success he had for as many years as he had.

Controversial or not, he deserves to go in this draft (if not higher).

 

[chaosrevolver]

He was kind of like Oilers version of Franzen/Holmström in regards to playoffs but he was better defensively than both. Was he an ace defensively? Probably not. Good enough to get shadow assignments for both Oilers and Sweden but he wasnt exactly a Selke threat. I'd say somewhere above average from the games Ive watched.

A clutch utility player who would score important goals in the playoffs. Good on the PP, can fill in as a PKer.

Yeah from what I read I don't see him as some kind of wiz, but more someone that can play some reliable two-way hockey and can fill in a more defensive role if needed.

But coming to Edmonton proved to be the best thing that could have happened to Willy. Edmonton made the finals in each of his three seasons with the team, winning two Stanley Cups. Willy had a defensive role on the Oilers team that was stacked with offensive fire power. He mostly played on the third and fourth lines. But in the playoffs Willy's savvy and experience proved to be very valuable. When Edmonton won their second Stanley Cup in 1985 Willy scored three goals in the final series, only Gretzky scored more goals in the finals.

The Willy Lindstrom fans of the Edmonton Oilers saw after he arrived in town was distinctly different than the player they watched score a bushel of goals for the Winnipeg Jets in the WHA and NHL, but he was nonetheless a significant player with Edmonton’s first two Stanley Cup teams.

Lindstrom was 31 by the time he was acquired from the Jets for Laurie Boschman during the 1982-83 season. He had nine straight seasons of 20-or-more goals and three AVCO Cups from his WHA days on his resume, and he’d settle in nicely as a checker and complementary player to all that young talent Glen Sather’s Oilers had up front.

Lindstrom’s offensive pinnacle as a pro in North America came in 1976-77 with the Jets in the WHA when he scored 44-36-80. With the Oilers boasting the likes of Wayne Gretzky, Mark Messier and Glenn Anderson up front and playing a secondary role, Lindstrom wouldn’t post those kinds of numbers in Edmonton, and he wasn’t expected to.

His best season with the Oilers came in 1983-84, when he scored 22-16-38 in 73 games, mostly as a third- and fourth-line player. Once the money was on the table, when the playoffs began, Lindstrom was at his best as a checker who could turn the puck up ice and get something done when chances arose.

 

[seventieslord]

Interesting. I like Lindstrom here in a lower line role. Not a shutdown player but neither are guys like Irvine, Miller, Brown and Dudley, they're just secondary scorers with some intangibles too.

and thanks MadArcand, I fixed Leeman and Niedermayer.

And the draft is open - anyone can pick a player now.

 

[seventieslord]

Players on other lists that I thought long taken and didn't even bother to search for:
Cam Ward - that's some absurd drop right here
David Legwand
Eric Vail
JP Dumont
John Tortorella - seriously?
Bryan Berard - he's not been picked?! I was sure he's gone when I picked Tverdovsky a draft up...
Dainius Zubrus
Paul Holmgren
Roman Cechmanek
Barret Jackman
Craig Muni
Grant Ledyard
Stephane Quintal
Alf Smith

would you have added them all?

Players on other lists I took a closer look at but decided not to include them on the list:
Tommy Salo - surprisingly highly unimpressive SV% finishes

Yeah, you know what? On his career he's 5 points below the league average too. We've picked a couple guys with sv% profiles that weak already, but there are also better ones out there. He was my 9th guy, I wasn't hugely enthusiastic about him but he was just about unanimous. I think with Salo the appeal is that he was for 3-4 years seen as the bright spot on a weak team and won a lot of games for them they shouldn't have won. I dunno.

For that matter, Malecek too. I'm not particularly high on him and I don't think he's a GREAT pick here, but it feels like he at least belongs. And he was one pick away from being unanimous. Still concerned about his competition level. However, it's not like there are any centers from the NHL in his era that are dying to be picked for scoring lines, so that probably means we should look at the AHL and Europe, so he could be a natural next choice.

Sergei Nemchinov - way too mediocre. Killed way less penalties than I thought.

He killed an ok amount for a C draft player. His LOH profile credits him a lot for playing a defensive role for the rangers. and offensively, if you roll in his best soviet years he's easily got checking line upside (not quite scoring line).

Terry Carkner - too mediocre

Seems like a better Garth Butcher. Played more for better teams, better PK stats, better fighter. Actually played a minute and a half more in his career; that's like a whole depth chart spot higher for 900 games. Not that that alone is a basis for taking him, especially if you don't like Butcher, but all things considered, Garth Butcher is about where I drew the line on defensemen.

Ryan O'Reilly - jack of all trades master of none. Also an *******. Might still be good choice on merit alone, though.

I'd say in the C draft he's master of many trades - offense from a lower line player, defense, possession, discipline, PK.

Joel Quenneville - I swear I had him on the list but culled him to make it less Whalery

Don't lie, you don't do that.

 

[MadArcand]

would you have added them all?

Don't think so. Vail, Legwand, Quintal & Dumont probably not.

Yeah, you know what? On his career he's 5 points below the league average too. We've picked a couple guys with sv% profiles that weak already, but there are also better ones out there. He was my 9th guy, I wasn't hugely enthusiastic about him but he was just about unanimous. I think with Salo the appeal is that he was for 3-4 years seen as the bright spot on a weak team and won a lot of games for them they shouldn't have won. I dunno.

Well compare him to Bob Essensa, whom only I had. He spent his career on crap teams yet finished top-10 in SV% four times. Salo just... disappoints. I did consider him seriously, but ultimately didn't add him.

For that matter, Malecek too. I'm not particularly high on him and I don't think he's a GREAT pick here, but it feels like he at least belongs. And he was one pick away from being unanimous. Still concerned about his competition level. However, it's not like there are any centers from the NHL in his era that are dying to be picked for scoring lines, so that probably means we should look at the AHL and Europe, so he could be a natural next choice.

I think there are situations where competition level just can't be applied reasonably, pre-ww2 European hockey being one of them.

He killed an ok amount for a C draft player. His LOH profile credits him a lot for playing a defensive role for the rangers. and offensively, if you roll in his best soviet years he's easily got checking line upside (not quite scoring line).

22% is hardly a lot when 40%+ guys are still available.

Don't lie, you don't do that.

Maybe I should have submitted the first idea I had after all... containing Adam Burt, among others. Maybe I'd even add Steven Rice!

 

[Hobnobs]

Well compare him to Bob Essensa, whom only I had. He spent his career on crap teams yet finished top-10 in SV% four times. Salo just... disappoints. I did consider him seriously, but ultimately didn't add him.

I like Essensa but he spent seasons at crap teams for a reason same as Salo. When it mattered Salo was actually better. Specially when we consider Essensas playoff with the Red Wings.

I think you guys are selling Salo short in this. Which is surprising to me since its only 2 or so years ago people here thought he was better than Guy Hebert.

 

[seventieslord]

Well compare him to Bob Essensa, whom only I had. He spent his career on crap teams yet finished top-10 in SV% four times. Salo just... disappoints. I did consider him seriously, but ultimately didn't add him.

Yeah, I'm doubting Salo a little.

Essensa was 2 points above the league average in his career, but his career has been quite short. Is there a case for him over Lehtonen, who also played 2/3 of his career on a garbage team that ate their own goalies' sv% for breakfast?

 

[Hobnobs]

Yeah, I'm doubting Salo a little.

Essensa was 2 points above the league average in his career, but his career has been quite short. Is there a case for him over Lehtonen, who also played 2/3 of his career on a garbage team that ate their own goalies' sv% for breakfast?

Lehtonen and Salo never spent seasons in the minors once established. And on top of that, Essensa was replaced by Salo during his 99 season. Not to mention that during his absolute best season where he managed to play his way to a Vezina nod he was replaced by Tabaracci.

 

[Rob Scuderi]

The ineligible list currently makes up 50% of the text in this thread. Do we really need it?

edit: I guess we do, since the other ones have been edited out from their threads.

It was killing me on my phone, so I put the collapse tags on it.

 

[VanIslander]

The Flin Flon Bombers select 6'2 180 lbs center Andy Blair, the clutch playoff hero for the Maple Leafs in their 1932 Stanley Cup championship after being an Allan Cup hero in 1928 with 5 points in 5 games. Blair jumped from Manitoba to Toronto and in his rookie season centered the Leafs top line and immediately led the team in assists that 1928-29 season, 2nd in NHL assists leaguewide, 3rd in the NHL in points. The following year, Primeau took over top line duties and Blair went on to center "The Pepper Boys Line", known for its aggressive play. Blair finished 3rd in team assists their cup season of 1932 before scoring key playoff goals. In 1934 he played in the all-star game for Toronto and scored a career-high 14 goals that year, tied for third in team goals with Primeau. Conn Smythe in his memoirs describes Blair as a classy guy who stuttered and who Conn liked to talk about game strategy with in the dressing room. One funny moment:

Some crazy referee gave us a string of penalties. That was before the days of the delayed penalty, and eventually we were down to only two players on the ice, Chabot in goal and Blair out front. Before the face-off Blair skated over to the bench and leaned over. I went to see what he wanted. "Ww-w-w-well," C-Conn," he said, "what's the s-s-s-s-strategy n-n-n-now?"

... his peculiar whirling rushes have a very strong crowd appeal...

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_TwAbZhMGVEw/SJfFPq1JNLI/AAAAAAAAD94/WT3zBZ1skdg/s400/andyblair.jpg

... a lanky center out of Winnipeg. At 6'2" and 180 lbs he was intimidatingly tall for his day. A distant cousin of the great Syl Apps and Murray Murdoch, Blair was quite the athlete growing up, starring in football, rugby, track and field and even golf. But it was hockey that was his game, and he was amongst the best young players in the city, starring at St. John's College high school.

Blair went on to the University of Manitoba where he earned a bachelor of arts degree. He was a star footballer and of course hockey player, leading the team to the Allan Cup championship in his final season. In those days the Allan Cup, given to Canada's amateur champions, was about as prestigious as the Stanley Cup. He also played with two other senior teams while going to school.

A young hockey executive named Conn Smythe was very impressed with Blair's play, and recruited him from the New York Rangers to join the Toronto Maple Leafs.

It would turn out to be a great move for the Leafs, and one that would haunt the Rangers.

Blair would step in nicely and contribute 12 goals and 27 points in 44 games in the 1928-29 season, second best totals on the team. Blair found himself playing along side two legendary Leafs: Ace Bailey and Baldy Cotton.

The team got stronger and by 1932 they challenged for their first Stanley Cup as the Leafs. Ironically for Blair, the competition was the New York Rangers. Blair teamed nicely with Bob Gracie and Frank Finnigan on "the Pepper Boys line," a revolutionary third line that was known for its "peppery" or aggressive style of play.

Blair chipped in with some timely offense as well. In the third and Cup clinching game, Blair scored the first two goals of the game. Toronto won the game 6-4 on Maple Leaf Gardens ice.

In 1933 Blair continued to improve his reputation as a go-to player in the playoffs. He was instrumental in the Leafs 1-0 five overtimes game against Boston on April 3rd. Though Ken Doraty gets the credit for scoring the goal, it was Andy Blair who stripped Hall of Famer Eddie Shore's pass and set up Doraty for the quick shot past Tiny Thompson.

WIth the game ending in the early hours of the morning, the Leafs had to scramble to the train station to once again meet the New York Rangers in the finals the very next day. The team did not arrive in New York until 4:30 in the afternoon, and were easy prey for the Rangers. The Rangers took the Cup in 4 games.

http://mapleleafslegends.blogspot.kr/2008/08/andy-blair.html

 

[tony d]

Moose Jaw picks #2 and selects Centre Josef Malecek:

This is a very interesting bio on Malecek, seems like a guy who could go in the AAA draft:

http://www.1972summitseries.com/othermalecek.html

 

[seventieslord]

Moose Jaw picks #2 and selects Centre Josef Malecek:

This is a very interesting bio on Malecek, seems like a guy who could go in the AAA draft:

http://www.1972summitseries.com/othermalecek.html

Malecek is currently being heavily disussed in the HOH European project. Although he was great in his time and place, it is really an open question whether he would have been a scorer in the NHL, and even whether he was an NHL-caliber player. At some point you have to include a guy like him, and like I said, he made my list, but the AAA is a real stretch for a guy who couldn't score against Canadian amateur teams. (at least this year's AAA, that is, considering it had players 1003-1154 in it this year)

Blair is a pick I have nothing against; he was on my list and most others. I think when this thing gets to the mid rounds we'll find he's at best the 3rd best offensive option on his team at center and will therefore drop down, which is fine because he has better 3rd/4th line cred than the one dimensional guys who (may) replace him.

True story, just over a year ago when I was in the AAA draft, I was PMing back and forth with MXD (I can't exactly remember why) but we got to talking about the lower line centers in that draft, and he couldn't believe we hadn't taken Blair ages ago. He saw him as an ATD lower liner. I scoffed at that and still do, but he's one of the biggest droppers from 2-3 years ago. If more can be found about his intangibles (a lot more), there's no reason he can't play on an MLD 3rd/4th line.

 

[seventieslord]

Yorkton starts the draft with the premier proven offensive center remaining: Mike Walton.

Walton wasn't loaded with intangibles, and was a bit of a headcase (he was nicknamed Shakey) but he could sure score. His best 7 seasons are spread out - 5 in the NHL, 2 in the WHA (bolded) - with scores of 97, 71, 70, 55, 54, 53, and 47.

In 799 NHL/WHA games (mostly NHL), Walton scored 729 points.

 

[VanIslander]

The Weyburn Badgers select HHOF center Oliver Seibert.

Oliver Seibert was, by reputation, a very fast skater and versatile player. He actually began his hockey career as a goaltender, a position usually reserved for those who were weaker on the blades. But, he switched to centre by the time he stepped on the ice with Berlin in the Western Ontario Hockey Association in 1900. In his initial season he scored ten goals in eight games played and increased his production the following year to 13 goals in six games played. By 1902, his third year in the league, he led the scoring derby with 17 goals in eight games. Seibert was one of the first to use the wrist shot and it would seem that he found the mark more often than not.

His play had earned him the respect and admiration of Buck Irvin, coach and manager of the Guelph O.A.C., and one of Berlin's main rivals in the W.O.H.A. In an era when obtaining player transfers from one team to another was almost impossible, Irvin somehow managed to acquire Berlin's star player, Oliver Seibert, for the 1903 season. The acquisition did not result in the expected championship for Guelph and Seibert was back with his hometown team the following year.

When the International Pro Hockey League began operations in time for the 1904-05 season, Seibert made his way from Berlin to Sault Ste. Marie to play for the Canadian Soo, becoming one of the first Berlin players to turn professional.

Oliver Seibert went on to play professionally with London and Guelph in the Ontario Pro League and Northwestern Michigan League.

Oliver Seibert was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1961.

 

[seventieslord]

Barry Ashbee, D has dropped a lot, since being drafted in 8 of 9 ATDs. Two years ago in the MLD, he was taken at #952, starting his permanent ATD exile: I said:

he's been on my radar forever. And there's that 2nd team all-star pick too. (I made sure it was not sympathy-based at all, it was voted on before the playoffs when his injury occurred). In 1974 he played just 21.8 minutes a game, which was good for the Flyers tightly managed defense corps but not 2nd team all-star material. In his defense, in 1971 and 1972 he did prove capable of being a big minute player (25+ minutes both times, and though the Flyers were bad they weren't terrible). the other thing is, to substantiate his greatness, I'd have liked to see him be a dominant AHLer, particularly in 68, 69, 70 when all the previously best minor leaguers had moved up, and he was 28-30. But, not even an AHL 2nd team all-star nod.

Then he fell all the way to 1163 in the AAA last year. And I said:

i really don't know what to make of him. If you play the "he was a 2nd team all-star and had his career ended early in a freak accident" card he's a top MLD player. If you play the "in his short career he was typically only a mid-pairing guy for mediocre teams" card he's not even a AAA player with the all-star team. I guess if you split the difference...

Ashbee doesn't really have the TOI profile of a guy who we'd take right now if he was an active player - 23.53 per game is excellent (only 1.5 of that on the PP), as is the fact that his Flyers were 10% above average, but the 270 games part is not.

Another factor to consider is that Shero liked to spread the TOI a lot, among both forwards and defensemen. This is supported anecdotally, and also in the estimated TOI figures. So this makes Ashbee's lower-than-normal TOI for a player of his supposed caliber a lot easier to swallow. Jim Watson, the guy most of us tend to consider Philly's best all-around defenseman, actually only played 21.14 minutes a game in his relatively short career himself.

Take a look at the four season period sandwiching the two cup wins for Phily (this completely excludes Ashbee's two big ice time years on a weaker Flyers team):

Name|TOI/G|ESTOI|PPTOI|SHTOI
Jim Watson|23.30|18.55|0.89|3.86
Joe Watson|22.56|18.76|0.32|3.48
Andre Dupont|21.89|17.30|1.40|3.19
Barry Ashbee|21.85|17.47|0.50|3.61
Ed Van Impe|21.02|16.90|0.12|4.00
Tom Bladon|20.89|16.83|2.61|1.45

These are the six guys who played the most for the Flyers in these four seasons - yes, even though Ashbee was only there half that time. The reason they're all over 20 is because they usually had a #6 playing less - Wayne Hillman and Jean Potvin in 73, Harris in 75, Goodenough and McIlhargey in 76. As you can see, it's quite close even from Jim Watson down to Bladon. You'll never see a great team like that with the TOI so evenly spread like that, because good teams usually have a stud or two they really rely on, but this was a committee, and while Ashbee was there it appears he was a solid 3rd/4th on this committee, not a bad feather in his cap.

Anyway, despite the questions about him, he's fallen quite far enough and he's going to be a solid #1 defenseman for Weyburn.