The 2010 All-Time Free Agency Thread (The Undrafteds)

[seventieslord]

This completes the Millionares' roster:

Wascana View Millionaires

Coach: Ted Nolan
Assistant Coach: John Brophy

Parker MacDonald - Alexander Kozhevnikov - Danny Lawson
J.P. Dumont - Paul Gardner - Mikhail Varnakov
Curt Bennett - Greg Johnson (A) - Ric Seiling
Chris Clark (C) - Murray Armstrong - Willy Lindstrom

Derek Morris - Willie Huber
Dan McGillis - Filip Kuba
Pat Price - Hal Gill (A)

Cesare Maniago
Bob Froese

Spares:
Valeri Nikitin, D/RW
Jim Lorentz, F
Steve Konroyd, D​

 

[EagleBelfour]

ok, last pick ready. for the record, this guy beat out MOD EDIT: DO NOT JUST LIST NAMES. Either profile a player giving a reason why they ought to be drafted or else don't mention him at all.

Arg! Come on now, I wanna know the players 70's was talking about. It's the first time since I join the ATD that I seea mod editing post like that. Don't you think you're abusing it just a little VanI?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Arg! Come on now, I wanna know the players 70's was talking about. It's the first time since I join the ATD that I seea mod editing post like that. Don't you think you're abusing it just a little VanI?

I tend to agree. I mean, I can see asking 70s to please give an explanation, but editing the post to remove a player's name is pretty excessive. I'm also curious to see the player.

Maybe VI is just practicing removing names for the inevitable naming of an undrafted once the new draft starts.

 

[seventieslord]

Yeah, Diduck was on the shortlist for me and Dave as well. Still we found out about Kravchuk so we drafted him before hand.

With a few of you so high on Diduck, I was very careful to consider him for the Regina neighourhood teams. While he was definitely better than I originally gave him credit for, I still couldn't make room. In his three longest playoff runs, he was no better than the #5 defenseman. Which sort of makes his impressive total of 114 playoff games (un undrafted defenseman high) a little less impressive and was exactly why I wanted to take a closer look at who played the most minutes in the playoffs for the best teams instead of just who played the most minutes or the most playoff games.

before VI edited that post though, you may have noticed Diduck was a very late cut, along with a few others.

What does everybody think of Clare Drake as a possible coach at this point? For those who don't know the name, he was the bench boss of the University of Alberta Golden Bears for a total of 28 seasons, but also saw some time as the head coach of the Oilers during the WHA years.

Stats:

-697-296-37 record (0.695 SV%) with the Golden Bears
-Six Canadian University hockey titles
-One partial season as WHA head coach (1975-76, 18-28-2 record)
-Assistant Coach of Team Canada at 1980 Winter Olympics
-Two seasons as assistant coach with the Winnipeg Jets (73-75-22)

Quotes/Anecdotes:

-"That Drake is really impressive with the club completely organized and no time wasted." (then-WIHL head coach Tom Hodges in 1975)

-Drake was fired from his WHA job after losing 11 games in a 14-game span. Owner and GM Bill Hunter took over at that point, but the club just wasn't that good and actually did worse after that (0.272 winning percentage versus 0.375).

-In 1968, Drake was head coach of both the U of A men's hockey and football teams, and led both to national championships. "It is a shame college sports in Canada don't have the vast spectator appeal they do in the U.S. Otherwise Drake and his University of Alberta teams would be well on the way to becoming a national legend such as Knute Rockne, Bear Bryant, and other U.S. college coaches established over the years," wrote an Edmonton Journal columnist at the time.

-"We won it on coaching, that's all. Everybody knows that." (former Golden Bears captain Gerry Braunberger on 1968 CIAU hockey title)

His record looks impressive, but I don't see who I would knock off from the already-selected coaches to make room. If you look at the "question mark" coaches I singled out when selecting Brophy:

Brian Kilrea was selected based on 2,156 games of junior hockey. Tom Johnson was selected based on just two and a half seasons with a Bobby Orr-driven Stanley Cup. Dick Todd and Tom Watt are longtime NHL assistants and Watt was not very successful as an NHL head coach. Bun Cook coached strictly in the AHL. Father David Bauer coached only amateurs internationally. Lloyd Percival did coach somewhere, but very, very little is known about his coaching record. Ernie McLean was strictly a junior coach with a career less than half as long as Kilrea's. Dwight McMillan's resume is entirely SJHL (junior A) based. Boris Kulagin, Jan Starsi, and Ivan Hlinka were successful internationally, but unproven as NHLers.

With the exception of McMillan, who GBC has managed to canonize as an MLD coach, and Percival, whose contribution to hockey goes far beyond his actual coaching record, everyone there is more of a "sure thing" as a coach at the all-time level.

Aside from his good canadian university record (which would be likely lower in importance than major junior or NCAA but above SJHL, correct me if I'm wrong), I do like the fact that he got to the highest levels. Even if he was not successful in the WHA, someone saw fit to give him a shot. And he was an NHL assistant too.

So long story short, if I could redo this I would still not find room for him, but I put him next to the other names who have been drafted/mentioned in the past but not in the 2010 edition - Ludek Bukac, Brent Sutter, Odie Cleghorn, Bob Pulford, George Burnett, Tom Renney, Steamer Maxwell, Kalevi Numminen, Glenn Sonmor, Warren Strelow, Floyd Smith, Francois Allaire, Mike Milbury, Vsevolod Bobrov, Guy Carbonneau, Phil Esposito, Jimmy Gardner, Bengt Gustafson, Vic Heyliger, Willard Ikola, Marc Habscheid, Bob Berry and Dit Clapper - I don't look at his record and credentials and think he is out of place with them.

I used to think the "potential talent pool" from Canada scaled or less linearly with the Canadian population since hockey became Canada's national sport sometime before the Original 6 period. Now I'm pretty sure it doesn't for two reasons:

1) The population of Canada (like every other industrialized nation) is aging. Top level hockey isn't drawing from the entire population - for most of its history, it was drawing from something like 18-35 year old males (now it might be 18-40 year olds, but I think 18-35 is still close enough).

2) Much of the Canadian increase in population comes from immigrants and children of immigrants - people who usually did not grow up in a hockey culture.

I'm sure it's possible to account for these variables, but it would be pretty complicated, which is why I gave up on the project I was going to work on that was to estimate the relative talent pool size over time.

If you look at it this way, it's possible that the potential talent pool from Canada hasn't really increased at all. (Though you still need to look at the fact that the Europeans have almost doubled the talent pool).

And of course, that is just the the potential talent pool. Some people on the HOH board think you need to account for the number of people actually registered for hockey in Canada, which has skyrocketed. I'm not sure if that's important, however.

Thanks for commenting.

I do think the number of people registered for hockey is important too, as that's ultimately where the talent pool comes from.

The size of the talent pool and Canada's population probably don't form perfectly relative paths but using population does serve as a decent starting point, I think. Better than saying "10th is 10th" and better than saying "10th in the O6 is like 50th now".

The more stuff like this is discussed, the better.

Arg! Come on now, I wanna know the players 70's was talking about. It's the first time since I join the ATD that I seea mod editing post like that. Don't you think you're abusing it just a little VanI?

I tend to agree. I mean, I can see asking 70s to please give an explanation, but editing the post to remove a player's name is pretty excessive. I'm also curious to see the player.

Maybe VI is just practicing removing names for the inevitable naming of an undrafted once the new draft starts.

I wish VI had left those names, but at the same time I said I wasn't going to profile anyone else after I got to #100 - which is part of why it was so important that I got the right guy here - so if I wasn't going to profile them, I shouldn't have mentioned them at all. And VI's edit says "Either profile a player giving a reason why they ought to be drafted..." but if we're 1600 picks deep and they're not taken, maybe they shouldn't be

Irresponsible research on my part - I did this in a tab in excel in a bigger sheet I use for most ATD matters, and when I was done, I simply deleted the tab. Had it been in its own file, I could have just pulled it from the recycle bin, but excel has no "recycle bin" for lost/deleted tabs.

I will try to go by memory and I'll PM you each the 10 names that Konroyd edged.

 

[overpass]

I'd like to hear the thoughts of guys like overpass, TDMM, and HO on stuff like this. The talent pool-based assessments like the above are really just in their infancy, and I added an arbitrary subjectivity at the end of it to "artificially" narrow the gap I created, but maybe there is an objective and substantiated way to do that, that I'm not thinking of.

Regarding "talent pool analysis" in general, when dealing with top end players, we need to be careful and recognize that top talent is somewhat random and was not distributed evenly over all times and places. Although that's not a concern with the level of players you are selecting here, as the law of large numbers comes into play.

I think your subjective adjustment is entirely appropriate. Hockey history and the ATD is about recognizing significant players in all eras of hockey history, and that may not track perfectly with the "best" players. I don't think it's a problem if different people who are knowledgeable about hockey history apply a different subjective adjustment, i.e. they prefer older players a little more or modern players a little more.

I'm not familiar enough with the history of "registered hockey players" to know if that is a good proxy for the talent pool. My guess is that it isn't - the ratio of possible NHL players to registered players could easily vary over time, depending on the way the system was run.

I have a couple of minor points on your actual numbers. TDMM mentioned it, but I think the number of men of hockey age who were born in Canada is a better estimate of the talent pool than simply the number of people living in Canada. I ran the numbers on this a few years ago but lost it at some point. If I get them again I'll post them.

Also, I don't think the current composition of the NHL is a 100% honest representation of the hockey talent pool. 4th liners, 3rd pairing D-men, and marginal NHLers tend to be North American rather than European. This isn't necessarily bias on the part of NHL decision makers. Marginal Europeans are often unwilling to give up a stable job and life at home to come over and ride the shuttle between the big club and the minors and compete for a job. So if I were going to run the numbers on the % of the hockey talent that is Canadian I'd measure only top-9 forwards, top-4 defenders, and starting goalies. Without having run the numbers I'd adjust the 55% down a bit - maybe 50%.

 

[seventieslord]

Also, I don't think the current composition of the NHL is a 100% honest representation of the hockey talent pool. 4th liners, 3rd pairing D-men, and marginal NHLers tend to be North American rather than European. This isn't necessarily bias on the part of NHL decision makers. Marginal Europeans are often unwilling to give up a stable job and life at home to come over and ride the shuttle between the big club and the minors and compete for a job. So if I were going to run the numbers on the % of the hockey talent that is Canadian I'd measure only top-9 forwards, top-4 defenders, and starting goalies. Without having run the numbers I'd adjust the 55% down a bit - maybe 50%.

Intuitively, I thougt that was probably the case but didn't have figures to back it up. You are probably right that if the GMs of the league had the power to lure 100% of the best players in the world to the NHL, that 55% would become about 50%. Heck, there are that many in the KHL alone, that we know are NHL-caliber players right now.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Half the list done! Should be over by the weekend!

 

[seventieslord]

Half the list done! Should be over by the weekend!

wow, I am really impressed by the effort you're putting into it. I would have been happy if just a few guys took 5 minutes each, to dump each player in one of those five categories.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Review of Seventieslord Top-100 Selections:

Before anything, I will acknowledge where acknowledgement is due: Seventieslord, it was pure pleasure reading your biographies. As I said earlier, it was the most fun I had in 2010 on this site, after the All-Time Draft. It's obvious you put a lot of effort and research into it, and the results is fantastic. Good job!

I will separate the players in multiples categories (ATD, MLD, AAA, AA, A, Unworthy selection), and write a couple of words beside each selection. Simple enough!

All-Time Draft Worthy:


Minor League Draft Worthy:
#13 Cesare Maniago, G: Big fan of Maniago. Just like Forbes, looking at stats only dosn't show the whole picture. If Vokoun, Fleury, Grahame, Mylnikov and Nicholson can be taking at this level, so is Maniago.


AAA Draft Worthy:
#1 - Brandan Morrison, C: I'll disagree with your assesment: I think he was fine enough to be a (low) 2nd line at the AAA level. I don't think he was riding shotgun to Naslund and Bertuzzi as much as some made it out to be.
#3 Jakes Forbes, G: I had the urge to put him in the MLD category, but I restrain (and rightfully so). All and all, Forbes is a fantastic AAA starter, who was unfortunate enough to play with ridiculous bad teams over his entire career.
#6 Alexander Martyntuk, RW: I'm convince by his results in the early 70's that Martytuk would be good enough to warrant a spot in the AAA.
#12 Alexander Kozhevnikov, C: I could very well picture Kozkevnikov on an offensive 4th line at that level.
#15 Adam Brown, LW: Maybe just not enough talented to be a MLD 4th liner, but Brown is someone who could play on any AAA line, especially the bottom-2.
#42 Herbert Collins, G: If Tom Paton can be the #4selection in the MLD (and deservedly so), Collins is at the very least a middle of the pack AAA goaltender. Find some info on him, and he may skyrock into a MLD backup role. Very nice find.
#43 Ken Smith, LW: Definitely an elite 3rd line LW at the AA level. Would not look out of place in the AAA. (EDIT: looking at the names in the AAA, he could slide in)
#52 Ted Nolan, Coach: Very big fan of Nolan. I watch him do his thing with the Islanders and afterwards with the Wildcats in the Q, and I believe is an amazing coach. Mind blowing he still hasn't got a 2nd chance in the NHL.
#99 Bert McCaffrey, D/RW: He's significant enough historically to be taken in the AAA. I think you're right and could of been an excellent NHL'er for many years.


AA Draft Worthy:
#2 - Rockett Power, D: I would be hesitant to use him as a regular at the AAA level, because very few information is provided. His longevity and the quotes provided makes him a very serviciable, perhaps elite, two-way defender at this category.
#4 - Parker MacDonald, LW: Due to historical scarcity of the position, MacDonald is definitely fine enough to warrant a position as an offensive player on a AA team. Too bad he was so non-descript outside his offense, because he could of slide nicely into a 4th line, PP specialist at the AAA level (although with all we know on him would be stretching it)
#5 - Derek Morris, D: Non-descript, middle of the pack offensive defenseman at this level.
#7 Ron Sutter, coach: Rating coaches is definitely not my strong suit, but he would fill nicely alongside Wilson, Vigneault and Hartley in the AA draft.
#8 Joe Benoit, RW: I flip-flop between the AAA and AA for Benoit, but at the end his credential as a goalscorer are just short. However, as other WWII veteran, I think we can slightly cut him some slack for losing two prime years of hockey.
#10 Yevgeny Groshev, C: Looking at the list of centers at the AA level, Groshev would definitely be one of the best. Not good enough for the AAA though.
#11 Larry Cahan, D Just for the intimidating factor, he ought to be a regular in the AA draft. A very unspectacular player with a lengthly career: the definition of AA.
#14 Matti Hagman, C/LW: A definite 'what-if' player. He's perhaps the most talented player taken in the A draft.
#18 Ron Harris, D: A devastating hard-hitter.
#19 Rick Lapointe, D: A fine, middle of the pack, AA defenseman.
#20 Willie Huber, D: 3rd pairing, special team specialist
#24 Walt Poddubny, LW/C: I like enough his offensive prowess alongside his overall abilities to see him slide into a AA spot.
#27 Sid Abel, Coach: His lengthly career should be taken into consideration.
#30 John Chabot: Not an overly impressive career, but when I see Koivu, McDonald and Legwand slot into the 3rd line C position in the AA, Chabot was definitely good enough to overtake them.
#37 Hal Gill, D: I may (probably) be bias because of his playoff performance of last year with the Habs, but Gill impressive stature, PK ability and playoff experience (ans someone who elevate his play in the playoffs) Scream #6D, PK specialist at the AA level.
#38 Pekka Marjamaki, D: Another 'No-info Euro player', but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I have the filling a little digging on him could elevate his legacy.
#45 Greg Johnson, C: I really like the selection, definitely warrant a spot as a 3rd line C in the AA.
#46 Petri Skriko, RW/LW: A strong enough credential offensively, alongside versatility, to play in the AA. I see him as a 2nd line W with 2ndPK time.
#47 Mike Sillinger, C: Typical 4th liner at the AA level.
#49 Niklas Sundstrom, RW/LW: I don't know why I really liked him when he wore the Habs uniform: he definitely had his best years with the Sharks. I think he's a fine AA two-way player.
#50 Mike Buckna, Coach: Historically very significant.
#54 Vic Lynn, LW: A very good set of skills even at this level. He definitely a fine bottom-6 player in the AA draft.
#65 Gilles Villemure, G: I wouldn't rely on him as a starting job, but he's probably the best backup you could fine in the AA.
#75 Urpo Ylonen, G: Definitely has a good enough career to warrant a spot in the AA.
#79 Raimo Helminen, C: He could very easily center an offensive line in the 'AA'. Would not look out of place in the 'AAA'.
#80 Yanic Perreault, C: We talked about him earlier. A 4th line AA player should be his spot.
#82 Bill Hicke, RW: I really like the Hicke pick. He definitely would have a place on my AA top-2 RW spot.
#83 Jack Portland, D: When I'll have time, I'll try to dig a little more on him, because he seems to be an underrated player. As of right now, he remind me of an Hall Gill with better defensive abilities.


A Draft Worthy:
#9 Dan Hamhuis, D I could buy him as a #6D and PK specialist at the AA level. Not overly impress by his short career yet. I prefer having him in the A
#16 Frank McCool, G: One-season wonder in the most diluted season in the history of the NHL should only be taken because he's historically very significant and deserve mention.
#17 Richard Smehlik, D: As significant historically as where he got taken.
#21 Danny Lawson, RW: Just slightly not enough impressive to get a spot on a AA team, although he probably is elite at that level.
#22 Jim Conacher, LW: Probably strong enough talent-wise to be an AA player, but for him it's Top-6 or bust, and he dosn't cut it.
#23 Derek Roy, C: a worthy selection at this point.
#25 Bruce Boudreau, Coach: A non-descript coach in an All-Time Draft context until he bring his extremely talented team into playoff success. I'll give him enough credit on his pedigree outside the NHL to warrant a spot in here.
#26 Earl Robinson, RW: Been a fan of Robinson, overall a better selection than Jim Conacher. However, he's just a tiny-bit short out of a top-6 spot in the AA.
#28 Paul Gardner, C: An elite player at this point, but as you said, very unidimensional. Could see him as a 12thF, 1stPP guy in the AA. (Love the extra info on Gillies and Nystrom: why do I see these guys playing PK in the ATD! I'll remember that one ...)
#29 Mikhail Varnakov, RW Not enough info on him to put him in the Groshev, Hagman category, although he could very well deserve. (Thinking about it, we should really recruit the Russian equivalent of 70's, Nik Jr. or HO, let him dig Russian newspaper and book, it would be fantastic!)
#31 Bill Collins, RW: A specialist-only, even at this level.
#32 Dave Hannan, LW: See Collins.
#33 Ron Wilson, C: See Hannan (Although I like the concept of reuniting players together in the A)
#34 Tom Reid, D: Non-descript 'A level' defenseman.
#35 Vladimir Brezhnev, D: Probably a defenseman who deserve more recognition, but with no information available on him, I can't take him over players with full NHL-career with information on their play.
#36 J.P. Dumont, LW/RW: Where he deserve to be taken.
#39 Simon Nolet, RW See Dumont.
#40 Todd Gill, D: I won't put him in the unworthy list, but I'm very unimpress by Gill overall career. Borderline selection.
#41 Mark Hardy, D: I like the selection. Definitely a good pick for the A draft.
#44 Pat Price, D: Ok selection at this point
#48 Juha Widing, C: A good offensive player in the A.
#51 Bill Derlago, C: Decent selection at this point.
#53 Filip Kuba, D: A good 'A' defenseman, a workhorse a this level.
#55 Jason Woolley, D: A remember Woolley being horrendous defensively, but as you pointed out he definitely as a very strong offensive resume.
#56 Jean Potvin, D: Another middle-of-the-pack 'A' worthy selection.
#57 Archie Briden, LW: I looked a little bit into him, because I like those pre-1927 players I never heard of. And although is a very fine selection at this point, he's definitely nothing special.
#58 Keith McCreary, RW/LW: Kind of player that makes you win at this level. I really like the McCreary pick.
#59 Floyd Smith, RW: Another very fine two-way player for this level.
#60 John Brophy, Coach: The number of game he coached his quite astonishing, that alone deserve recognition.
#61 Ric Seiling, RW/C: Decent selection for the 'A'.
#62 Gerry Meehan, C: See McCreary.
#66 Danny Markov, D: Very few words comes to mind when it comes to Markov. Bottom-D in the 'A' I can accept that.
#67 Tom Poti, D: I would of hate that selection, until he came to Washington. I'm impress by his performances in the last few years.
#69 Murray Armstrong, C: Could see him play on an offensive oriented 4th line.
#70 Jochen Hecht, LW/C: Hecht definitely deserve recognition. I like this selection.
#71 Sibby Nichol, LW: See Briden.
#72 Scott Hartnell, LW: I see him as a strong 4th liner in the 'A'
#73 John Mariucci, D: I remember Mariucci as one of the toughest SOB of his time, while being a competent player.
#74 Tracy Pratt, D: Nothing spectacular IMO. A time-muncher in the 'A'.
#76 Curt Bennett, LW: A very fine bottom-6 forward.
#77 Chris Clark, LW/RW: I can buy him as a 4th liner who bring some intangible, but I'm not in awe of him. definitely a notch under Hartnell.
#78 Mel Hill, RW: ''Sudden Death'' Hill! A well-worthy selection in the 'A'. A magnificiant playoff performer, but after his playoff exploit, there's very few to say about him.
#81 Scott Walker, RW: Typical 4th liner.
#84 Bob Froese, G: A little bit more than a one-year wonder, but not enough to get a call up with the AA.
#85 Willy Lindstrom, RW: A fine selection at this point.
#86 Alf Smith, Coach: The only reason hes not higher on the list, it's because we have absolutely no info on his coaching career, other than stats.
#87 Dennis Herron, G: A fine backup in the 'A'.
#88 John Tortorella, Coach: Never been a fan of his, so it might be the only reason he's not in the AA category. Definitely has some good credential.
#89 John McKinnon, D: A potable selection at this point, although we have no clue on how he played the game.
#90 Marty Howe, D/RW: ''While no Gordie or Mark, Marty Howe was a very good player.'' I think that's one of my favourite hyperbole!
#91 Doug Halward, D: A fair spare.
#92 Valeri Nikitin, D/RW: Perhaps the best utility player in the 'A'.
#93 Jim Lorentz, F: Ok spare ... Nothing else to add.
#94 Jason Blake, LW: Think Islanders, not Toronto ... Islanders ... Ok, a fair selection at this point.
#95 Lucien DeBlois, F: I like Deblois, good pick.
#96 Matt Cullen, C: A fine-spare with a lengthly career.
#97 Benny Woit, D/RW: He actually was on my shortlist on my AAA team a couple of draft ago, but never was able to find a place for him. Definitely an excellent pick at this point.
#98 Bob Wall, D/LW: He's allright, but nothing earthshattering.
#100 Steve Konroyd, D: #100!


Unworthy Selection:
#63 Ethan Moreau, LW: I've seen enough of Moreau to think we are really scrapping the bottom of the barrel if he deserve all-time recognition. He's VERY non-descript. Leadership or not, his overall skillset is below everyone taken so far. I would call him the worst selection so far.
#64 Jason Pominville, RW: Very short career, although he's shown some great offensive flair. Considering he played so few years of decent hockey, I ought to believe theres a couple of players with more career credential than Pominville.
#68 Dan McGillis, D: You may be right, but my memory tells me: Dan McGillis, really?

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm probably overrating some selection. However, I'm looking at the players in the AAA and AA and thinking: was this player better than him for the role he's asked for? Individually, he might deserve it, but if 3-4 players also deserve it, some of them would be pushed down into the lower category. Just look at my list as 100 individual selection, as the other 99 didn't existed when I decided their rank. (Hope this make sense, I'm bloody tired!)

All Star Team:​

Coach: Ted Nolan
Ass. Coach: Sid Abel
Ass. Coach: Ron Sutter

Adam Brown - Brandan Morrison - Joe Benoit
Parker MacDonald - Alexander Kozhevnikov - Alexander Martyntuk
Ken Smith - John Chabot - Vic Lynn
Matti Hagman - Yevgeny Groshev - Bert McCaffrey
Walt Poddubny
Bill Hicke

Rockett Power - Pekka Marjamaki
Derek Morris - Jack Portland
Larry Cahan - Ron Harris
Rick Lapointe

Cesare Maniago
Jake Forbes
Herbert Collins​

---------------------------------------------------------

At last, special thanks to Zambomania and VanIslander for contributing in this thread.

 

[VanIslander]

I will profile undrafteds this week. It's 'bout time.

 

[MadArcand]

Interesting to see Pominville selected and not Nelson Emerson.

- well skating, universal forward
- 503 adjusted points, and 0.65 PPG
- six 50+ adjusted point seasons
- prolific PP player and PK regular
- two PPG playoffs, and solid 22 points in 40 games overall

Is it his +/- that scared you off? Or was it him playing virtually all his career on abysmal teams?

 

[tony d]

Emerson was a name me and Dave looked at in the last draft, really surprised that he didn't go in the "A" draft.

 

[BM67]

Would think these two former draftee goalies are worth mentioning. Both are included in the Important Non-NHL Goalies section of Total Hockey.

Petr Briza: Second fiddle to Hasek for much of his career, but still managed to be an all-star/top goaltender in the the Czech League, Finnish League and the World Championships. Finished as high as 3rd in Czech Golden Stick voting.

"The only goalie in Czech hockey history to score a goal (1991 versus Steaua Bucharest from Romania)... Romanian goaltender was on ice when goal was scored." - Total Hockey

http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/briza.html

http://www.eurohockey.net/players/show_player.cgi?serial=1044

Netminder.
Club Career : Played for Lukko Rauma.
Honours : Won the Urpo Ylönen Trophy in 1991-92.
SM-liiga All Star Team netminder 1992 and 1993.

- http://www.azhockey.com/Br.htm

Jimmy Foster: Won 2 Allen Cups in Canada and an Olympic Gold and 2 European Championships for Great Britain.

Considering that Phat Wilson is a HHoFer and a mid round MLD selection for playing on a Allen Cup powerhouse, it stands to reason that Foster is also worthy of consideration.

http://www.greatesthockeylegends.com/2010/02/olympic-hockey-legends-jimmy-foster.html

 

[seventieslord]

Interesting to see Pominville selected and not Nelson Emerson.

- well skating, universal forward
- 503 adjusted points, and 0.65 PPG
- six 50+ adjusted point seasons
- prolific PP player and PK regular
- two PPG playoffs, and solid 22 points in 40 games overall

Is it his +/- that scared you off? Or was it him playing virtually all his career on abysmal teams?

I saw him as a very poor man's Shawn McEachern, and if you're a very poor man's version of an AA player, you don't get taken. Like Nylander made a good career out of being the best player on a second line, Emerson made a good career out of being the 3rd best player on a second line. Pominville's a first-liner.

Thanks for the ratings, EB, that was fun to see. Pretty much what I expected. If I could find 9 guys who could get in the AAA or higher, I'm happy. Although I'm surprised you weren't higher on Harris, Bill Collins and especially Mariucci. Actually, seeing Mark Hardy and Todd Gill on the same tier seems off to me as well.

 

[MadArcand]

I saw him as a very poor man's Shawn McEachern, and if you're a very poor man's version of an AA player, you don't get taken. Like Nylander made a good career out of being the best player on a second line, Emerson made a good career out of being the 3rd best player on a second line. Pominville's a first-liner.

He wasn't always 3rd best player on 2nd line, but yeah, a career 2nd liner - one who played 52% of his teams' PPs and amassed 191 PP points, and pretty damn impressive 148 PP assists. Is there another so accomplished PP passer left?

 

[seventieslord]

He wasn't always 3rd best player on 2nd line, but yeah, a career 2nd liner - one who played 52% of his teams' PPs and amassed 191 PP points, and pretty damn impressive 148 PP assists. Is there another so accomplished PP passer left?

I dunno, I'm kinda less impressed now by a guy who didn't score much to begin with, and so many of his points were PP assists from time spent with better players on the PP.

 

[MadArcand]

Well, if you see it that way. Beats being an extremely underwhelming 1st liner (in fact always the worst member of his line) for a few years like Pominville as far as I'm concerned though.

BTW they have virtually identical playoff production, yet Emerson managed the same from 2nd line that Pominville did from 1st.

 

[seventieslord]

Well, if you see it that way. Beats being an extremely underwhelming 1st liner (in fact always the worst member of his line) for a few years like Pominville as far as I'm concerned though.

BTW they have virtually identical playoff production, yet Emerson managed the same from 2nd line that Pominville did from 1st.

If your goal is to prove that Emerson belongs as a 2nd liner here, then you probably picked the right guy to go after. But I'm still not seeing it. I could be wrong and it's not like it was a slam dunk or easy decision.

- Emerson was on the PK 18% of the time, but having drafted 12 forwards could you see him being one of your 4 best for that role?
- I could see him as a second unit PP guy, maybe. But I wouldn't be thrilled about him. You want to load up with your best offensive guys there and I wouldn't be thrilled to say he's among my best 6. The fact that such a high percentage of his assists came from the PP and that he spent a lot of time there, doesn't necessarily make him better at it, just more utilized that way.
- I realize Pominville has a long time to decline, but he's sitting at a 0.62 adjusted ESPPG. Emerson's way, way down at 0.43. If you look just at Emerson's first five seasons he had just 160 ESP after 377 games, good for 0.42, and probably about 0.38 adjusted.
- I'm pretty sure scoring was a lot higher in the 1992 and 1993 playoffs (where most of his points came from) than it was in 2006 and 2007.
- There shouldn't be any doubt that Pominville's a better offensive player. The main question should be, do the next 5 seasons Emerson put in as a serviceable 22-45-point scorer outweigh that? I say no, but I wouldn't fault you for thinking so. Seriously, unless you're talking complete scrubs here, you're not gonna get much argument from me against a player because many guys can claim to be the "next best" from a variety of viewpoints.

 

[MadArcand]

I looked a bit more into it, and what makes Emerson look even more like a solid choice to me is his ability to play point on PP - for that's what he did in Blues and Jets. Could be very useful to the right sort of team.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Jimmy Foster: Won 2 Allen Cups in Canada and an Olympic Gold and 2 European Championships for Great Britain.

Forgot about Jimmy Foster, who actually was my third string goaltender in one of my previous ATD team. Definitely worth a selection, at the very least in the AAA.

Thanks for the ratings, EB, that was fun to see. Pretty much what I expected. If I could find 9 guys who could get in the AAA or higher, I'm happy. Although I'm surprised you weren't higher on Harris, Bill Collins and especially Mariucci. Actually, seeing Mark Hardy and Todd Gill on the same tier seems off to me as well.

- Ron Harris: In all honesty, I know him as much as your bio tells me. Perhaps he could of slide into a 3rd paiting role in the AAA.

- Herbert Collins: I'm actually very high on Collins. For a player we have absolutely nothing on, expect his stats, considering him as a AAA player is quite the accomplishment. As I said, if someone dig further and find some quotes on him, he could very well slide into a role in the MLD.

- John Mariucci: You are right on that one. Looking further into him, he definitely could play in the AA without missing a beat. Him and Harris actually sound quite alike.

 

[seventieslord]

EB - I meant bill collins, not herbert... I know you like herbert

 

[seventieslord]

The other thing I wanted to mention was Moreau. Don't underestimate the value of leadership. It has an impact on the whole team. In a vaccuum, Moreau is likely not an AAA-level player (he's about the same as Laperriere, IMO) butwhen you consider that when teammates see a guy who works so hard, sticks up for teammates, blocks shots, plays hurt, etc, it rubs off on them and makes it very difficult for them not to do the same.

 

[MadArcand]

The other thing I wanted to mention was Moreau. Don't underestimate the value of leadership. It has an impact on the whole team. In a vaccuum, Moreau is likely not an AAA-level player (he's about the same as Laperriere, IMO) butwhen you consider that when teammates see a guy who works so hard, sticks up for teammates, blocks shots, plays hurt, etc, it rubs off on them and makes it very difficult for them not to do the same.

But then why didn't you draft Dave Lowry, a more accomplished version of Moreau with no character question marks?

(another guy I had on my longlist)

 

[BM67]

Dug through the Hockey Archives for a little more info on Petr Briza, mainly looking at the Czech League playoffs.

Played in the Czech Extraliga from 83-84 to 90-91 and won one league playoff title, and was named playoff MVP, and lost 2 other finals, including one in OT to Hasek's Pardubice team.

He then spent 2 years in Finland and 6 in Germany before returning to the Czech Republic in 99-00. In the next 7 seasons he won 3 league playoffs and was named playoff MVP twice.

In his last season of 05-06, he led Sparta Praha to the league playoff title and was named Top Goalie, Player of the Year and Playoff MVP.

Talk about going out on top.

In the 4 years he was the Czech/Czech Republic National Team starter he was named an all-star at 2 World Championships and won 3 bronze medals.

 

[seventieslord]

and regarding my comments about Gill and Hardy - although I think Gill is worthy, I was insinuating that Hardy was clearly better. I'm not so sure of that now.

I did some mock number crunching as though Gill and Hardy were left unselected heading into pick #100. Both have numbers that stand up to Konroyd and I'd have likely taken them both over him. Which is important because Konroyd was the most carefully considered pick of the draft, i.e. the one I was the most "sure" of.

GP - min/GP - POGP - POmin/GP

Gill: 1007 - 19.43 - 103 - 20.18
Hardy: 915 - 22.21 - 67 - 20.21
Konroyd: 895 - 20.35 - 97 - 20.65

Gill is highest in games and comes out the lowest in minutes but not by very much. He averages close enough to Konroyd in enough more games that it's just as impressive. Ditto with the playoffs: 6 more games, 0.47 fewer minutes, practically the same.

With the consideration that went into the Konroyd pick it was to be expected that he would be better than some of the guys I took earlier. But I wouldn't say Gill and Hardy are two of them. They are all extremely similar in overall value.

Now what does that mean for your assessments? Nothing at all. If you think they are all A players, that's fine, I just wanted to clarify that after further analysis I believe they are all firmly on the same tier, so I retract my previous statement.