The 1st half of the 2014 draft ANALYSIS & Discussion Thread

[ResilientBeast]

Round 1:

Least Fav:
Neely. For reasons stated by others.

Get ready Neely's playoff heroics knock your team out of the playoffs

 

[ImporterExporter]

Get ready Neely's playoff heroics knock your team out of the playoffs

How many Conn Smythe winners ya got?

Bossy, Pulford (retro), Savard, and Niedermayer say hello

 

[ResilientBeast]

How many Conn Smythe winners ya got?

Bossy, Pulford (retro), Savard, and Niedermayer say hello

I actually think I have zero Conn Symthes

 

[ImporterExporter]

Pretty sure Mikita does have a retro....was looking that up the other day.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Pretty sure Mikita does have a retro....was looking that up the other day.

Nieuwendyk would know. The two were instrumental in Dallas' Stanley Cup victory in 1999. Nieuwendyk may have won the Conn Smythe Trophy and Brett Hull may have scored the famous (infamous?) goal but think about what Belfour had to do. In the 1999 playoffs Belfour beat Grant Fuhr, Patrick Roy and Dominik Hasek to win the Stanley Cup.

http://blackhawkslegends.blogspot.ca/2011/11/ed-belfour_11.html

Just saying

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Round 4:

Not saying Bure's rise was totally unjustified (and Milt Schmidt is a great center for him), but is he THAT much better than Gordie Drillon? Oh sorry, I tooted my own horn.

One can take an inch at his defensive blue line and turn it into a dangerous scoring opportunity. The other can finish the plays his line mates set him up for. Play creation is one of the more rare skills and Bure is rare talent when it comes to it.

 

[Dreakmur]

Least Favorite:
Ovechkin. Wonderful regular season #'s and awards but has rarely lifted his team in crunch time. Look at the other top 50 players. Most of them have done so (sometimes multiple times). I value leadership more than most probably.

The guy actually has really strong offensive numbers in the play-offs. Sure he sucks defensively, and he doesn't bring leadership, but offense is what he brings, and he definitely does that in the play-offs.

 

[ImporterExporter]

The guy actually has really strong offensive numbers in the play-offs. Sure he sucks defensively, and he doesn't bring leadership, but offense is what he brings, and he definitely does that in the play-offs.

He hasn't dominated a playoff run since 08-09. He's under a PPG player without that year factored in. He's routinely failed to deliver when it matters most. The greatest players almost always raise their games in crunch time. I've rarely seen it from AO and i see A LOT of Caps hockey down here. He's a tremendous regular season producer, no doubt about it. He's a Hall of Famer just on that alone. Just pointing out how i've seen him over the years.

 

[Elvis P]

The guy actually has really strong offensive numbers in the play-offs. Sure he sucks defensively, and he doesn't bring leadership, but offense is what he brings, and he definitely does that in the play-offs.

Agreed. He's top 5 among active players in playoff PPG. Dreak rules!

NHL Leaders
Rank Player PTS/G
1. Sidney Crosby 1.280
2. Evgeni Malkin 1.169
3. Claude Giroux 1.100
4. Martin St. Louis 1.079
5. Alex Ovechkin 1.052

 

[ImporterExporter]

Agreed. He's top 5 among active players in playoff PPG. Dreak rules!

NHL Leaders
Rank Player PTS/G
1. Sidney Crosby 1.280
2. Evgeni Malkin 1.169
3. Claude Giroux 1.100
4. Martin St. Louis 1.079
5. Alex Ovechkin 1.052

Mmmmk. Like i said, one playoff run boosts those totals.

MSL raised his PPG during his career in the playoffs and helped carry a team to a ring. Was between good and outstanding in 3 of his 5 trips to the postseason.

Giroux? Same story minus the ring, although he has at least played in a Cup final.

Crosby and Malkin? Both have rings, Malkin a Conn Smythe. Crosby's PPG drop but not to the extent of Ovechkin and both have played in far more playoff games which makes comparing PPG that much harder as totals will generally come down over time.

Either way, the point remains. Ovechkin is not a postseason savior or guy you should count on to show up consistently. He's basically been average since 08-09 in the postseason and downright crap the past 2 years. Those are facts.

 

[VanIslander]

Agreed. He's top 5 among active players in playoff PPG. Dreak rules!

A snapshot of the top-5 ACTIVE players from 50, 75 and 100 years ago include undrafteds, so it ain't so impressive.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mmmmk. Like i said, one playoff run boosts those totals.

MSL raised his PPG during his career in the playoffs and helped carry a team to a ring. Was between good and outstanding in 3 of his 5 trips to the postseason.

Giroux? Same story minus the ring, although he has at least played in a Cup final.

Crosby and Malkin? Both have rings, Malkin a Conn Smythe. Crosby's PPG drop but not to the extent of Ovechkin and both have played in far more playoff games which makes comparing PPG that much harder as totals will generally come down over time.

Either way, the point remains. Ovechkin is not a postseason savior or guy you should count on to show up consistently. He's basically been average since 08-09 in the postseason and downright crap the past 2 years. Those are facts.

Other facts:

1) He was over a PPG in his first 4 playoffs
2) If you're going to remove his best playoff run, someone else could just as easily remove his worst playoffs (last year), when he was playing injured

 

[Dreakmur]

Mmmmk. Like i said, one playoff run boosts those totals.

He has had one great play-off run and one bad one. The rest have been good.

Either way, the point remains. Ovechkin is not a postseason savior or guy you should count on to show up consistently. He's basically been average since 08-09 in the postseason and downright crap the past 2 years. Those are facts.

Maurice Richard had some pretty crappy play-off years. What does that mean to his legacy?

 

[BillyShoe1721]

Round|Good Value|Not Good Value
1|Lemieux, Jagr|Richard, Yzerman
2|Esposito, Lalonde|Kharlamov, Pronger
3|Brodeur, Makarov|Niedermayer, Fedorov
4|Nobody really stands out|
5|St. Louis, Thornton|Primeau, Broadbent
6|Schriner, Stewart, Cowley|Middleton, Datsyuk
7|Barry, Martinec|Smith, Gonchar
8|Balderis|Konstantinov, Gainey, Barber, Provost
9|Bowie, Dillon|Bailey, Carbonneau
10|Krutov|Hall, Shutt
11|Goldham, Backstrom|Bondra, Andreychuk, Tikkanen
12|Novy, Weiland|Nobody really sticks out
13|Patrick|Toews, Sanderson
14|Nieuwendyk, Gottselig, Kerr|Corbeau
15|Burrows, Demitra, Vadnais|Abel, Sutter, Clark, Reijo, Morrow
16|Barrasso, Rowe, Hatcher|Nobody sticks out

None of these guys are bad players, but I either liked them compared to other guys available, or thought there better alternatives available.

 

[Elvis P]

Other facts:

1) He was over a PPG in his first 4 playoffs
2) If you're going to remove his best playoff run, someone else could just as easily remove his worst playoffs (last year), when he was playing injured

Agreed, TDMM. I was trying to ignore his cherry picking. I love the first half analysis.

 

[Elvis P]

A snapshot of the top-5 ACTIVE players from 50, 75 and 100 years ago include undrafteds, so it ain't so impressive.

Yeah, he hasn't outscored any good players in the playoffs.

24. Alex Ovechkin 1.052
25. Guy Lafleur* 1.047
26. Denis Savard* 1.036
27. Doug Gilmour* 1.033
28. Kevin Stevens 1.029
29. Theoren Fleury 1.026
30. Brian Leetch* 1.021
31. Dale Hawerchuk* 1.021
32. Gordie Howe* 1.019

 

[ImporterExporter]

Other facts:

1) He was over a PPG in his first 4 playoffs
2) If you're going to remove his best playoff run, someone else could just as easily remove his worst playoffs (last year), when he was playing injured

And again, what did any of those performances do for his team? I already pointed out that the other players have lifted their games to greater heights during the postseason and have the hardware to go with it.

And it's not like the Caps were mediocre teams for many of those runs. They have been bounced TWICE in the first rd as #1 seeds vs 8.

Nobody is arguing his regular season accomplishments. He's a HOF'er based on that alone. He's just somebody i've seen a lot of over the years and the statistics don't back up a player you can count on to raise his game in the postseason. Much like Peyton Manning in football (although even Manning has a ring, but has choked far more than succeeded).

You can roll your eyes at me being a Pens fan, but when somebody like VanIsles, who's been a Caps fan for years, largely backs up my position, there is some merit, IMHO.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Yeah, he hasn't outscored any good players in the playoffs.

24. Alex Ovechkin 1.052
25. Guy Lafleur* 1.047
26. Denis Savard* 1.036
27. Doug Gilmour* 1.033
28. Kevin Stevens 1.029
29. Theoren Fleury 1.026
30. Brian Leetch* 1.021
31. Dale Hawerchuk* 1.021
32. Gordie Howe* 1.019

LOL Hawk. Who's cherry picking now? All those guys are retired and you almost always see a drop in PPG as a career enters the "twilight years". I highly doubt Oveckhin ranks better than any of those guys, especially if he plays in the postseason late in his career as those names above have.

You can't compare guys who played 15-20+ years in the league vs a guy who's what 28?

This Ovechkin apologist crap is the same reason why he won a Hart last year over Tavares who took a much crappier team in the Islanders to the postseason. Or Crosby who wasn't caught until the final week of the season in points, despite missing a month prior and had the exact # of points in 12 fewer games. Not to mention AO played like garbage for about the first 3rd of the year.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Round|Good Value|Not Good Value
1|Lemieux, Jagr|Richard, Yzerman
2|Esposito, Lalonde|Kharlamov, Pronger
3|Brodeur, Makarov|Niedermayer, Fedorov
4|Nobody really stands out|
5|St. Louis, Thornton|Primeau, Broadbent
6|Schriner, Stewart, Cowley|Middleton, Datsyuk
7|Barry, Martinec|Smith, Gonchar
8|Balderis|Konstantinov, Gainey, Barber, Provost
9|Bowie, Dillon|Bailey, Carbonneau
10|Krutov|Hall, Shutt
11|Goldham, Backstrom|Bondra, Andreychuk, Tikkanen
12|Novy, Weiland|Nobody really sticks out
13|Patrick|Toews, Sanderson
14|Nieuwendyk, Gottselig, Kerr|Corbeau
15|Burrows, Demitra, Vadnais|Abel, Sutter, Clark, Reijo, Morrow
16|Barrasso, Rowe, Hatcher|Nobody sticks out

None of these guys are bad players, but I either liked them compared to other guys available, or thought there better alternatives available.

Don't see how Datsyuk is not good value in the 6th.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=603565

Only Kurri and Francis have more top 10's in both scoring and Selke voting (Pavs has 3 btw). There were a few more offensively gifted players available at C (Malkin, Cowley) but nobody comes remotely close to the package of skills that Datsyuk represented at 143.

Great effort though. I enjoy reading these as it can only help in the learning process.

 

[Elvis P]

LOL Hawk. Who's cherry picking now? ...

... He's under a PPG player without that year factored in. ...

You are.

...You can roll your eyes at me being a Pens fan, but when somebody like VanIsles, who's been a Caps fan for years, largely backs up my position, there is some merit, IM...O.

Over the years VI has claimed about a half dozen teams as his own. Have a nice day.

 

[ImporterExporter]

He has had one great play-off run and one bad one. The rest have been good.




Maurice Richard had some pretty crappy play-off years. What does that mean to his legacy?

Richard has 2 retro Conn Smythe's. Ovechkin has played on some dominant Eastern Conference teams in his career (2 #1 seeds, and a #2) and hasn't even been to the Cup finals yet.

Just saying.

 

[ImporterExporter]

You are.

Over the years VI has claimed about a half dozen teams as his own. I have to take my son to school. Have a nice day.

So were you, to a much greater extent by putting Ovechkin up against guys with 2 decades of service. All i did was remove one year to show it's the aberration when looking at the entire history.

My little boy is home with me today! (day off work for me) He's almost 2 now, let me go ask his opinion on the matter.

Anyway, good debate. I'm still waking up yet. This gets the juices flowing.

 

[Elvis P]

LOL Hawk. Who's cherry picking now? All those guys are retired and you almost always see a drop in PPG as a career enters the "twilight years". ...

I already proved he's top 5 among active players. Whether I use active or retired there's a problem. Other players such as The Flower played on better teams with better teammates. That's not a factor?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And again, what did any of those performances do for his team? I already pointed out that the other players have lifted their games to greater heights during the postseason and have the hardware to go with it.

And it's not like the Caps were mediocre teams for many of those runs. They have been bounced TWICE in the first rd as #1 seeds vs 8.

Nobody is arguing his regular season accomplishments. He's a HOF'er based on that alone. He's just somebody i've seen a lot of over the years and the statistics don't back up a player you can count on to raise his game in the postseason. Much like Peyton Manning in football (although even Manning has a ring, but has choked far more than succeeded).

You can roll your eyes at me being a Pens fan, but when somebody like VanIsles, who's been a Caps fan for years, largely backs up my position, there is some merit, IMHO.

If Ovechkin "raised his game" in the playoffs, he'd be a borderline first round pick in the ATD. We're talking about a guy whose regular season resume has already surpassed Guy Lafleur and Mike Bossy, in my opinion (although not by much).

He is what he is - an above average playoff performer for a player whose team never went anywhere. Overall, I wouldn't count on him to be clutch in the playoffs, but I wouldn't expect him to be bad either.

 

[BraveCanadian]

If Ovechkin "raised his game" in the playoffs, he'd be a borderline first round pick in the ATD. We're talking about a guy whose regular season resume has already surpassed Guy Lafleur and Mike Bossy, in my opinion (although not by much).

He is what he is - an above average playoff performer for a player whose team never went anywhere. Overall, I wouldn't count on him to be clutch in the playoffs, but I wouldn't expect him to be bad either.

Agreed. And he still has the time to change that last part. Even though it will be tough to shake that controller disconnected thing haha..

He was dynamite in the playoffs in 08/09 so it is within his ability to do it again.