Taylor Hall For Adam Larsson V | 4,000+ Posts and Counting!

[Bryanbryoil]

Last thread hit 1K posts.

Some of the last posts from that thread:

Show me all the championship teams that haven't had their depth guys step up when needed. It doesn't take three guys to win a championship.

And if the Edmonton Oilers are a true Stanley Cup contender in the near future, Adam Larsson or Oscar Klefbom are going to be your Doughty/Keith/Seabrook/Letang types. And FYI those guys you mentioned with the exception of Chara, who was a UFA signing, all started out as nobodies in their respective organizations. Their teams didn't trade their entire farm systems for them.

Trading Taylor Hall sucks. But statistically we need to replace 80 points, which is his optimistic production, from a combination of Lucic, Puljujarvi and improvements from a number of culprits on the wing. His production can be replaced.

Now that's funny! I'd take Doughty over PK in a heartbeat AND he's $2 million cheaper. Doughty is the best defenseman of this generation IMO, consistently a high end 2 way defenseman that has a couple of cups and a couple of Olympic gold medals backing this up. IIRC he was Canada's best player in his first Olympics and he was all of 20-22 years old.



No ****. He probably values Hall over Doughty by the sounds of things. Draisaitl + Puljujarvi + Klefbom + for Subban would've crippled the team. Then we'd be paying 2 guys over $9 million in a couple of seasons time. Hall for Larsson was a better trade for us to make than the asking price for Subban.

Maroon-McDavid-Eberle
Hall-RNH-Yakupov
Pouliot-Letestu-Pakarinen/Versteeg?
Hendricks-Khaira/Lander-Kassian

Sekera-Subban
Davidson-Fayne/Demers?
Nurse/Reinhart-Fayne/Gryba?

Vs.

Lucic-McDavid-Eberle
Maroon-RNH-Puljujarvi
Pouliot-Draisaitl-Yakupov
Hendricks-Letestu-Kassian

Klefbom-Larsson
Davidson-Sekera
Nurse/Reinhart-Fayne

Only the biggest Hall fans would take the top group IMO. One thing that would be almost a certainty is that we would not be adding Lucic if none of Hall, RNH or Eberle were moved out. Also no knowing if Demers would've signed with us over Florida although if I had to wager one way or another on a hunch I'd say that he would've but for
$5 million or so AAV.

We'll be in the playoffs this season or next. We still lack one last top 4 RHD that can play the PP, but beyond that unless we play RNH and Drai on the same line and could use a 3C this is the least amount of holes that we've had on this team in eons.

When Chia came here we lacked 3-4 top 4 D, a power forward in the top 6, size, grit and compete in droves throughout the team and a starting goalie.

He's added:

Sekera and Larsson (2 top 4D, we could still use another)
Talbot (starting goaltender)
Top 6 power forwards (Lucic and arguably Maroon as well)
And size, grit and compete throughout the lineup (Lucic, Maroon, Kassian and Larsson) All of which are 6'3" tall and 200+lbs.


Hall while much more proven than Larsson was drafted a year before Larsson was. Larsson unlike Hall has been trending upwards while Hall has hit a snag the last couple of seasons. You have also said that forwards tend to hit their peaks quicker while D take their time to hit theirs (FWIW I agree), this means that Hall may have already peaked while Larsson maybe 2-3 years away from hitting his peak and it seems like good D keep a higher level of play for longer than many forwards do.

If he is and we make the playoffs then both teams should be happy. Hall took this team as far as he could with what he had around him. It's not his fault that we lost Petry and never added a top 4RHD or two to bolster our team, however we know what happens when Hall leads a team without a top pairing. I also still say that there's more than meets the eye with this trade beyond the stats, salaries, etc.

TIL Hall + Subban + Demers (best case) > Larsson, Draisaitl, Puljujarvi, Klefbom, Lucic. The cap hits for each side are equal.

Montreal wanted something else too with no 9 coming back? That's BETTER?

Makes me appreciate PC more.

That IMO is the biggest thing. If it is fact true that Montreal wanted RNH as well as Drai then we become pathetically thin down the middle. For years and years we saw the results of not having any center depth which led to players like Gagner getting routinely worked over by other WC centers. Now for the first time in forever we have what resembles Center depth and people want to trade it all away for a one dimensional, mistake prone Dman?

Nope.

We still have the best young center depth in the league with Connor, Nuge and Drai. We have great depth on the wings with Lucic, Eberle, Maroon, Pouliot, and a guy who some Oiler fans dont realize his potential in Puljujarvi. Then we have two great young Dmen signed long term in Klefbom and Larsson, a solid vet signed long term in Sekera, and some nice looking young guys in Nurse, Davidson and Griff.

We do actually have a well built TEAM. Adding Subban would have been adding another INDIVIDUAL at a huge expense to the TEAM.

Larsson isn't close to Subban. I do that Subban deal all day long and twice on Sunday. Klefbom is a band aid, the pick should have always been on the table Finn or no Finn, the hard part would be Draisaitl but we are talking about a Norris calibre dman. He ticks so many boxes for us. Larsson isn't even a cheap imitation, he is literally nothing like Subban. We just traded Mark Messier for Lee Fogolin.

Have you guys looked at next season's UFA market? Good grief is it ever piss poor outside of Burns and Shattenkirk. Teams are locking up their D and holding onto them like they're gold.

IMO it depends on how people valued Hall. I for one valued Draisaitl as our 2nd most valuable asset, then RNH because generally speaking top 6 centers hold more value than wingers unless they are elite (IMO Hall was not in his last 2 seasons here). Not saying that my valuation was right, but would you have moved Hall + #4 + Klefbom + for Subban? Klefbom has had injury issues, however the staph stuff was flat out bad luck that could've happened to anyone. When Klefbom plays he is by far our best defenseman.

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[belair]

Larsson isn't close to Subban. I do that Subban deal all day long and twice on Sunday. Klefbom is a band aid, the pick should have always been on the table Finn or no Finn, the hard part would be Draisaitl but we are talking about a Norris calibre dman. He ticks so many boxes for us. Larsson isn't even a cheap imitation, he is literally nothing like Subban. We just traded Mark Messier for Lee Fogolin.

So if we do the Subban deal we get our top pair RHD. But we also lose our top pair LHD, our 6'4 20 year old third line center and a 6'4 rookie power-forward RW. And we add $5m in cap spending for the foreseeable future. But at least we get to keep Mark Messier, whatever that means.

 

[I am the Liquor]

IMO it depends on how people valued Hall. I for one valued Draisaitl as our 2nd most valuable asset, then RNH because generally speaking top 6 centers hold more value than wingers unless they are elite (IMO Hall was not in his last 2 seasons here). Not saying that my valuation was right, but would you have moved Hall + #4 + Klefbom + for Subban? Klefbom has had injury issues, however the staph stuff was flat out bad luck that could've happened to anyone. When Klefbom plays he is by far our best defenseman.

Yes absolutely. I would do either deal. You would have to be crazy not to.

Subban is difference maker.

Larsson may become that. Then again he may not. You don't move a top young player like Hall for a maybe.

That is what we did here. So many seem to be overlooking that and thinking Larsson is a #1 already. He better be for his sake or there's going to be a hoard of upset Oiler fans climbing up his rear end before Christmas.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

So if we do the Subban deal we get our top pair RHD. But we also lose our top pair LHD, our 6'4 20 year old third line center and a 6'4 rookie power-forward RW. And we gain $5m in cap space for the foreseeable future. But at least we get to keep Mark Messier, whatever that means.

Maybe it means he's really going to Vancouver to sewer their franchise.

 

[MrM]

Yes absolutely. I would do either deal. You would have to be crazy not to.

Subban is difference maker.

Larsson may become that. Then again he may not. You don't move a top young player like Hall for a maybe.

That is what we did here. So many seem to be overlooking that and thinking Larsson is a #1 already. He better be for his sake or there's going to be a hoard of upset Oiler fans climbing up his rear end before Christmas.

If the Oilers struggle like most years there will definitely be upset fans. Fans are fickle though...if we start winning people will forget.

 

[Mc5RingsAndABeer]

I think we are underrating Klefbom. He has #1D potential IMO. Unlikely to reach that but probably will hit top pairing.

 

[belair]

Pretty much.

I suggest we call Taylor '80 point guy' from now on until we can all move on, because at least we're still giving him the benefit of the doubt that way.

Replacing those 80 points internally is probably going to be a lot easier for us with the Lucic and Puljujarvi additions than it will be for Jersey to replace the 23 minutes of 70% d-zone starts a night adding Ben Lovejoy and a couple rookies.

 

[I am the Liquor]

So if we do the Subban deal we get our top pair RHD. But we also lose our top pair LHD, our 6'4 20 year old third line center and a 6'4 rookie power-forward RW. And we add $5m in cap spending for the foreseeable future. But at least we get to keep Mark Messier, whatever that means.

It means we don't trade our second best player for a dman whose upside is questionable.

 

[belair]

It means we don't trade our second best player for a dman whose upside is questionable.

A right handed d-man who fills our biggest need today. You can question his upside all you want, but he's a top pairing guy today. And you weren't going to get him for a combination of our third, fourth and fifth best players.

Hall is a very good player but all he really offered was offense. That is replaceable.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Yes absolutely. I would do either deal. You would have to be crazy not to.

Subban is difference maker.

Larsson may become that. Then again he may not. You don't move a top young player like Hall for a maybe.

That is what we did here. So many seem to be overlooking that and thinking Larsson is a #1 already. He better be for his sake or there's going to be a hoard of upset Oiler fans climbing up his rear end before Christmas.

Here's the thing, Hall looked like a top young player for 30 or so games in the last 2 seasons. Larsson is probably a #1 defensive defenseman or a #2, what he brings on offense is the great question. Will he look more like a 15 point D or a 30 point D? I know that Subban is very good, however I woudn't have made that trade based on my valuation of what we were sending out and Subban's contract.

Hall + #4 + Nurse/Reinhart/Davidson would've been fine for me because we were moving out $6 million in Hall. Trading either of Sekera or Klefbom is a no go right now unless we get a much better player without too big of an add. We needed to add to our top 4 and we did. I have a higher opinion of Klefbom than you do, I see top pairing potential in him.

From my perspective Draisaitl, Puljujarvi, Klefbom, Larsson and Lucic + are > Hall and Subban.

Pretty much.

I suggest we call Taylor '80 point guy' from now on until we can all move on, because at least we're still giving him the benefit of the doubt that way.

Replacing those 80 points internally is probably going to be a lot easier for us with the Lucic and Puljujarvi additions than it will be for Jersey to replace the 23 minutes of 70% d-zone starts a night adding Ben Lovejoy and a couple rookies.

I suggest we call him former 80 point guy because he hasn't come close to that number in the last 2 seasons. We are replacing 65 points because that was his high here over the last 2 seasons. If RNH gets back to 55ish points and Lucic provides the same we are looking pretty good in that regard. If Larsson adds 25 points that helps. Then we look at how much better defensively we should be by adding Larsson and Lucic and subtracting Hall.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

It means we don't trade our second best player for a dman whose upside is questionable.

And if the defense continues to be the worst in the league it won't matter how good our forwards are.

You said yourself Klefbom is a band-aid...

 

[nabob]

It means we don't trade our second best player for a dman whose upside is questionable.

Right, you trade him, and our best D prospect, and our best forward prospect, and another quality asset for a Dman who has never led his team anywhere and got exposed badly as not for his regular mistakes on the ice, but for his lack of leadership off it as well last year.

Might work in NHL 16 and I'm sure Kevin Lowe would support gutting the team for a big fish so you go ahead and believe it will work in the real NHL, but collecting a bunch of players who play as individuals instead of a team hasnt worked so well for the Oilers in the last decade.

 

[Wretched Oil]

Hall is not Messier, not even close.

 

[I am the Liquor]

It matters little what your feelings for Klefbom are if you can't count on him to even be in the lineup.

Nobody "wants" to add a Klefbom in a Subban deal but if that is the ask you would have a hard time convincing me why it would be a good idea not to do it.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

It means we don't trade our second best player for a dman whose upside is questionable.

So we keep our 2nd best player and move out 2 of our 3 best cost controlled assets in Drai and Puljujarvi (not to mention both guys are not smurfs) and a guy that could be a solid top pairing guy as soon as next season and more? If the returning defenseman's last name isn't Doughty I'd scoff at that trade proposal.

Larsson's offensive upside is a ?, his defensive play seems to be pretty well known to Devils fans and those that see him more than we do.

 

[I am the Liquor]

Hall is not Messier, not even close.

He was our second best player. That's the comparison. And that's not even close.

 

[nabob]

Hall is not Messier, not even close.

Yeah if anyone believes that then I have a hot dog stand for sale on Vancouver Island that is guaranteed to make you rich.

 

[nabob]

He was our second best player. That's the comparison. And that's not even close.

So does that mean that two seasons ago Scrivens = Fuhr because he was our best goalie?

 

[I am the Liquor]

Right, you trade him, and our best D prospect, and our best forward prospect, and another quality asset for a Dman who has never led his team anywhere and got exposed badly as not for his regular mistakes on the ice, but for his lack of leadership off it as well last year.

Might work in NHL 16 and I'm sure Kevin Lowe would support gutting the team for a big fish so you go ahead and believe it will work in the real NHL, but collecting a bunch of players who play as individuals instead of a team hasnt worked so well for the Oilers in the last decade.

Habs made it to the conference final two seasons ago. We haven't played a playoff game in ten years.

Never led his team anywhere indeed. Was NJ in the conference final last year?

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Right, you trade him, and our best D prospect, and our best forward prospect, and another quality asset for a Dman who has never led his team anywhere and got exposed badly as not for his regular mistakes on the ice, but for his lack of leadership off it as well last year.

Might work in NHL 16 and I'm sure Kevin Lowe would support gutting the team for a big fish so you go ahead and believe it will work in the real NHL, but collecting a bunch of players who play as individuals instead of a team hasnt worked so well for the Oilers in the last decade.

That would be a legit concern. I also wonder what dynamic Subban would bring to the room?

It matters little what your feelings for Klefbom are if you can't count on him to even be in the lineup.

Nobody "wants" to add a Klefbom in a Subban deal but if that is the ask you would have a hard time convincing me why it would be a good idea not to do it.

Agreed, I just hope that he stays healthy next season and continues to build off of what he showed before going down. I think that Larsson is an ideal partner for him, RH fellow Swede that plays more physical than he does and plays a steady defensive game.

I just don't see dealing 3 assets of Klefbom's quality for a single player unless that player is Doughty or McDavid.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Habs made it to the conference final two seasons ago. We haven't played a playoff game in ten years.

Never led his team anywhere indeed. Was NJ in the conference final last year?

you talking about Taylor Hall or Subban?

we had McDavid and Hall in the line-up last year and still got humiliated by Calgary at home and smacked around by the Islanders of all teams

 

[I am the Liquor]

So we keep our 2nd best player and move out 2 of our 3 best cost controlled assets in Drai and Puljujarvi (not to mention both guys are not smurfs) and a guy that could be a solid top pairing guy as soon as next season and more? If the returning defenseman's last name isn't Doughty I'd scoff at that trade proposal.

Larsson's offensive upside is a ?, his defensive play seems to be pretty well known to Devils fans and those that see him more than we do.

Stop moving the goal posts. The hypothetical deal we are discussing is Drai, Klef, 4th for Subban.

That makes our team better for next year and legitimately makes us a playoff contender.

Hall for Larsson? Sideways move AT BEST. Playoffs? Not bloody likely.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

He was our second best player. That's the comparison. And that's not even close.

I do not believe that he was the 2nd most important player for us going forward though. IMO that is likely Drai at forward.

Yeah if anyone believes that then I have a hot dog stand for sale on Vancouver Island that is guaranteed to make you rich.

Oh no you didn't!

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Stop moving the goal posts. The hypothetical deal we are discussing is Drai, Klef, 4th for Subban.

That makes our team better for next year and legitimately makes us a playoff contender.

Hall for Larsson? Sideways move AT BEST. Playoffs? Not bloody likely.

but Subban would've done the trick

(btw, you forgot it was also an extra add on top of the package for Subban)

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

He was our second best player. That's the comparison. And that's not even close.

The Oilers second best player might be a few notches down on several better teams.