Ansar Khan: Svechnikov won't receive QO, will become UFA

[TheOtherOne]

Other than a few people, I don't recall much uproar when those guys were let go.

I don't even remember anything about Nestrasil.

Frk and Pookie, there was a lot of disappointment, but my impression was that we were all disappointed in those players for not being better. Not in management for how we dealt with them.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Pre salary cap comparison or post?

Either one but hockey is hockey.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

It was 6th overall. 3rd in 2010 was a far worse pick in Gudbranson.. Semantics aside, I don't understand why anyone would shit on a high teens pick that just didn't pan out when he was viewed as a very solid pick at the time. The injuries just boned him hard.

Exactly. I don't think Yzerman is an idiot because he has taken a lot of bust picks. I just find it ridiculous that people point at Svech and say "see Holland is an idiot".

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Either one but hockey is hockey.

You are really arguing who is the better GM between Holland and Yzerman in 2021?

 

[Revenge of Gru]

You are really arguing who is the better GM between Holland and Yzerman in 2021?

You are really arguing who is the better GM between Holland and Yzerman in 2021?

Clearly Holland has the vastly superior record but Yzerman learned alot from him. The Wings would still be better off if Holland was still in the organization. He's the best GM of his era.

 

[RabidBadger]

Clearly Holland has the vastly superior record but Yzerman learned alot from him. The Wings would still be better off if Holland was still in the organization. He's the best GM of his era.

And his era has passed. If Edmonton wins a Cup under him, you get a pass. If Detroit surpasses Edmonton in two years...well then.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

And his era has passed. If Edmonton wins a Cup under him, you get a pass. If Detroit surpasses Edmonton in two years...well then.

And when Holland wins another cup you will be trying to credit anyone and everyone but him.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Clearly Holland has the vastly superior record but Yzerman learned alot from him. The Wings would still be better off if Holland was still in the organization. He's the best GM of his era.

They would not be better off if Holland was still in the organization because Yzerman would not be back in Detroit if that was the case. The two were not going to work together. Holland wanted to be the GM. He was offered the role to move up, I'm sure, and he said thanks but absolutely no thanks.

There was not a situation in which you could have your golden team of Yzerman + Holland. Holland wasn't willing to step aside.
Hey, Miguel Cabrera got back to back MVPs. He's got a vastly superior record to anyone else in the lineup. Clearly he's still the best hitter in the Tigers lineup, right?

When we do a retrospective on Ken Holland's career, we'll give him credit for being the GM when they won all the Cups and the job he did in building and maintaining that roster. When we're reading stories about Justin Abdelkader and Frans Nielsen being bought out of a year or more of contracts Holland signed them to because they're completely washed, we will criticize his moves. I understand if this is too much nuance and critical thinking for you though.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

And when Holland wins another cup you will be trying to credit anyone and everyone but him.

If Holland makes moves that lead the Oilers to the Cup, he'll deserve the daps. Maybe trading for Duncan Keith is an awesome move and everyone was panning it unnecessarily. Maybe he's the straw that stirs the drink and some of the younger Ds they have learn a lot from a guy with that kind of experience. Maybe he makes a savvy TDL acquisition or two.

But as it stands, their goaltending is a massive sore thumb for them (Smith and Koskinen are not good.) and he did not make a move to address it. They still do lack depth at forward and they're really putting a lot of hopium into the Keith and Nurse baskets. I just don't think that Edmonton has the horses to get it done. For McDavid's sake, I hope I'm wrong. He should be driving a strong contender year after year.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

They would not be better off if Holland was still in the organization because Yzerman would not be back in Detroit if that was the case. The two were not going to work together. Holland wanted to be the GM. He was offered the role to move up, I'm sure, and he said thanks but absolutely no thanks.

There was not a situation in which you could have your golden team of Yzerman + Holland. Holland wasn't willing to step aside.
Hey, Miguel Cabrera got back to back MVPs. He's got a vastly superior record to anyone else in the lineup. Clearly he's still the best hitter in the Tigers lineup, right?

When we do a retrospective on Ken Holland's career, we'll give him credit for being the GM when they won all the Cups and the job he did in building and maintaining that roster. When we're reading stories about Justin Abdelkader and Frans Nielsen being bought out of a year or more of contracts Holland signed them to because they're completely washed, we will criticize his moves. I understand if this is too much nuance and critical thinking for you though.

Yeah hitting is like GMing....oh my.
Drafted Datsyuk. Zetterberg. Kronwall.
Oh that Abby deal.....please. Yzerman signed one of the worst deals in cap era history. The difference is his actually cost his team.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Yeah hitting is like GMing....oh my.
Drafted Datsyuk. Zetterberg. Kronwall.
Oh that Abby deal.....please. Yzerman signed one of the worst deals in cap era history. The difference is his actually cost his team.

Put another way... he got two 1Cs and a 1D... in what... 20 years?
Those were all great picks. But that's three NHL players and you're going all the way back to 1998 for the point.

The point with comparing Cabrera and Holland is that both were beyond outstanding at their very best. But being great then does not mean you are great now. Your career is still going to be amazing when history looks back at it. Holland is already in the Hall for hockey. Cabrera is going in without hesitation as soon as he's eligible. But both are not that guy anymore.

And hey, you want to point out Hall of Fame draftees?

Yzerman drafted Kucherov who is an over PPG W who is on the track for the Hall. He drafted Vasilevskiy who has four consecutive Vezina noms, a Vezina win, and a Smythe win. All he needs to do is pad out the length of his career some and he's going into the Hall first ballot. He drafted Point who's at 0.88 PPG and is poised to take over the 1C role if he hasn't already from Stamkos.

Also... how exactly did "the worst deals in cap era history" hurt the Lightning? They went to the Cup final in 2015. They missed the playoffs with 94 points the next year. Then lost in 7 games to the Caps in the Conference final. Then a 62-win Lightning team who was the prohibitive favorite got swept out of the playoffs. Then they won back to back Cups.

They played in 50% of the Cup finals in the time period where they had this "worst cap era deal". They missed a fourth trip by dropping a series to Washington that they led 3-2.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Clearly Holland has the vastly superior record but Yzerman learned alot from him. The Wings would still be better off if Holland was still in the organization. He's the best GM of his era.

K

 

[Revenge of Gru]

Put another way... he got two 1Cs and a 1D... in what... 20 years?
Those were all great picks. But that's three NHL players and you're going all the way back to 1998 for the point.

The point with comparing Cabrera and Holland is that both were beyond outstanding at their very best. But being great then does not mean you are great now. Your career is still going to be amazing when history looks back at it. Holland is already in the Hall for hockey. Cabrera is going in without hesitation as soon as he's eligible. But both are not that guy anymore.

And hey, you want to point out Hall of Fame draftees?

Yzerman drafted Kucherov who is an over PPG W who is on the track for the Hall. He drafted Vasilevskiy who has four consecutive Vezina noms, a Vezina win, and a Smythe win. All he needs to do is pad out the length of his career some and he's going into the Hall first ballot. He drafted Point who's at 0.88 PPG and is poised to take over the 1C role if he hasn't already from Stamkos.

Also... how exactly did "the worst deals in cap era history" hurt the Lightning? They went to the Cup final in 2015. They missed the playoffs with 94 points the next year. Then lost in 7 games to the Caps in the Conference final. Then a 62-win Lightning team who was the prohibitive favorite got swept out of the playoffs. Then they won back to back Cups.

They played in 50% of the Cup finals in the time period where they had this "worst cap era deal". They missed a fourth trip by dropping a series to Washington that they led 3-2.

You're not arguing in good faith. There's no comparison between a baseball hitter and a hockey GM. As you know, athletes diminish physically with age. That's generally not a factor with an executive but you know that.

Perhaps if Yzerman hadn't signed a washed up Ryan Callahan to a 6 year 35 million dollar deal they would have had the guns to get over the hump. Probably more than once. Yeah I think an actual $6 million player might have helped just enough. Alas it wasn't to be until Yzerman left and Brisebois finished the job.
On the other hand Abby's contract cost ownership some money and made fans sad because they could never make that kind of dough. It's not like the team wasn't going to need a rebuild abut that deal got in the way.

 

[Gniwder]

Exactly. I don't think Yzerman is an idiot because he has taken a lot of bust picks. I just find it ridiculous that people point at Svech and say "see Holland is an idiot".

He was slow before the injury, and he has absolutely no stamina. Between Svech, Raz, and Zadina, it's obvious that Holland didn't put enough emphasis on skating when drafting in the first round.

All I know is that I'd rather have Stevie over Kenny for a rebuild.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

He was slow before the injury, and he has absolutely no stamina. Between Svech, Raz, and Zadina, it's obvious that Holland didn't put enough emphasis on skating when drafting in the first round.

All I know is that I'd rather have Stevie over Kenny for a rebuild.

I think the jury is still out. Let's see in 10 years if we've won a cup or two.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

You're not arguing in good faith. There's no comparison between a baseball hitter and a hockey GM. As you know, athletes diminish physically with age. That's generally not a factor with an executive but you know that.

Perhaps if Yzerman hadn't signed a washed up Ryan Callahan to a 6 year 35 million dollar deal they would have had the guns to get over the hump. Probably more than once. Yeah I think an actual $6 million player might have helped just enough. Alas it wasn't to be until Yzerman left and Brisebois finished the job.
On the other hand Abby's contract cost ownership some money and made fans sad because they could never make that kind of dough. It's not like the team wasn't going to need a rebuild abut that deal got in the way.

I would argue that it definitely IS a factor with an executive. Holland was far less aggressive in addressing problems with the roster or cutting bait with players as the years went along. His team building strategy was markedly different by 2012 than it was in 2005. I would say that Ken Holland's team building strategy has never really adapted to cap era 2.0 (after the 2012 lockout, I mean). Holland and Ilitch swung for the fences big in 2012 and Ryan Suter cut their balls off by taking 13/98M from Minnesota. Where Holland usually was quick on his feet and moved onto another good route if his A plan fell through, he was caught with his pants down and gave Carlo Colaiacovo 2/5M to then compliance buy him out after 6 games. Then he struck out on improving the D in any material way for the next two-three years. Holland started to make some very questionable decisions on players. Abdelkader was never worth the amount of money that he was paid on that contract for a single year, let alone 7 with a no trade/movement clause. Helm was probably worth 3.85M in the beginning of the decade when he was a great two-way shutdown C. When he actually signed the 5/3.85M deal, he was a bottom 6 wing who couldn't stay healthy and was starting to get his trademark speed sapped by those injuries. You can say the ridiculous crap about the hatred on those contracts just being jealousy that we can't make 4.5M a year to play hockey... but the Abdelkader and Helm contracts were two of the most telegraphed deals as being irreedemably crappy because the whole reason why you'd want those players was not a reality of their game at that point.

Abdelkader's contract along with Helm's and Nielsen's and signing Datsyuk to his 3 year 35+ contract definitely affected what the Wings were able to do in a massive way. The Wings were capped out for most of the 2010s with a mediocre roster that was continually declining all the way to historically shitty and it's the main reason why they're not signing or adding the big pieces that you continue to bitch about. They didn't have the ability to really sell off the best players they had to kickstart a rebuild because Zetterberg and Franzen had the recapture applied, you had Abdelkader, Helm, and Howard with massive term commitments and questionable salaries (Howard's deal was fine, but if you wanted to switch to Mrazek, you really couldn't because he was making 4.0M and Howard 5.3M). They had to trade the 16th OA when Chychrun was on the board to dump Datsyuk's contract. We're sitting through mulitple years of plugs and what not because Holland's job in the 2010s was bungled so badly. The Wings started rebuilding in earnest in around 2017.

Lastly, the Wings actively hurt their roster in 2014-15 with Cleary's contract. They were forced to keep Gustav Nyquist down in Grand Rapids for another month because they literally didn't have the cap room to bring up a league minimum rookie because they needed to give a 35+ Cleary a contract. By the way, the Wings are lucky that the NHL just passed on investigating the circumstances of Cleary's contract. It's completely arguable that the Wings actually had an agreement to sign Cleary to the 3 year extension that Philadelphia offered him in one of his PTOs but handled it as three distinct 1 year contracts to massage cap hits. Yes, it is a very easy argument that the Red Wings circumvented the salary cap for Dan Cleary but the league didn't do anything about it because Dan Cleary was completely irrelevant by that point.

 

[TheOctopusKid]

I think the jury is still out. Let's see in 10 years if we've won a cup or two.

I don't know, I can safely say that I would prefer Yzerman over Kenny in a rebuild. Or, more accurately, I don't think Holland would be particularly effective as a rebuilding GM. I wrote a post a few weeks ago basically stating this but: Ken Holland was an incredible GM and the perfect leader for the Wings throughout the 90's and 00's. I just believe that for all the credit I give him to the success of those team, what we need from our GM now, is the exact antithesis of Holland's strengths.

Holland was cautious, steady, patient, and precise. He was loyal, respectful, and at all times a professional. Everything through relationships and in private. He honored and defended the players who played for him, who gave them his all, and he rewarded that with loyalty in kind. Players respected that and respected the Red Wings because of that approach. It was because of him and that attitude, that so many veterans would seek out Detroit or be willing to take pay cuts to play for them or often not speak to other organizations despite more money or opportunity. He prized experience and character. Holland wouldn't be rushed or compelled to take reactionary moves if things didn't work out. It was always, careful, slow, and methodical. Lost to Sharks? Trade Yzerman for Yashin! ...no. Datsyuks deal can be struck? Panic! Trade him for Gomez! ...no. Often with Kenny, the best move, was waiting it out and not overreating and letting calmer heads prevail. I give Holland all the credit in the world because he showed us these traits time and time again. And it I truly believe it was because of this approach that he was able to maintain the quality of the Wings Organization for as long as he did.

But it's literally because of all of those traits, I don't want him in charge of a rebuilt. Now is the time to take risks, to walk from players, to think outside the box on a number of things, and maybe get carried away at times. I don't know if I could say with 100% confidence that Kenny wouldn't QO Svech, because that's just kind of the guy Kenny is. And I really do wish Svech the best of luck, because he certainly got some literal bad breaks that weren't his fault. And I think that's what Kenny would've thought too and tossed Svech a QO, and tried to reward the hard work when he would've been a longshot at best, with serious injury concern, and realistically the window was closed on him being a thing. I still think Holland is a great GM when given the right situation, I just don't think Detroit is it.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

Connor - Scheifele - Wheeler
Harkins - Stastny - Ehlers
Copp - Dubois - Svechnikov
Vesalainen - Lowry - Nash

I like that third line. One of the Jets fans speculated Lowry centering Copp and Svech, which I also like. Would be nice just seeing him make their squad - if he can find his old chemistry with PLD that would be gravy

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I would argue that it definitely IS a factor with an executive. Holland was far less aggressive in addressing problems with the roster or cutting bait with players as the years went along. His team building strategy was markedly different by 2012 than it was in 2005. I would say that Ken Holland's team building strategy has never really adapted to cap era 2.0 (after the 2012 lockout, I mean). Holland and Ilitch swung for the fences big in 2012 and Ryan Suter cut their balls off by taking 13/98M from Minnesota. Where Holland usually was quick on his feet and moved onto another good route if his A plan fell through, he was caught with his pants down and gave Carlo Colaiacovo 2/5M to then compliance buy him out after 6 games. Then he struck out on improving the D in any material way for the next two-three years. Holland started to make some very questionable decisions on players. Abdelkader was never worth the amount of money that he was paid on that contract for a single year, let alone 7 with a no trade/movement clause. Helm was probably worth 3.85M in the beginning of the decade when he was a great two-way shutdown C. When he actually signed the 5/3.85M deal, he was a bottom 6 wing who couldn't stay healthy and was starting to get his trademark speed sapped by those injuries. You can say the ridiculous crap about the hatred on those contracts just being jealousy that we can't make 4.5M a year to play hockey... but the Abdelkader and Helm contracts were two of the most telegraphed deals as being irreedemably crappy because the whole reason why you'd want those players was not a reality of their game at that point.

Abdelkader's contract along with Helm's and Nielsen's and signing Datsyuk to his 3 year 35+ contract definitely affected what the Wings were able to do in a massive way. The Wings were capped out for most of the 2010s with a mediocre roster that was continually declining all the way to historically shitty and it's the main reason why they're not signing or adding the big pieces that you continue to bitch about. They didn't have the ability to really sell off the best players they had to kickstart a rebuild because Zetterberg and Franzen had the recapture applied, you had Abdelkader, Helm, and Howard with massive term commitments and questionable salaries (Howard's deal was fine, but if you wanted to switch to Mrazek, you really couldn't because he was making 4.0M and Howard 5.3M). They had to trade the 16th OA when Chychrun was on the board to dump Datsyuk's contract. We're sitting through mulitple years of plugs and what not because Holland's job in the 2010s was bungled so badly. The Wings started rebuilding in earnest in around 2017.

Lastly, the Wings actively hurt their roster in 2014-15 with Cleary's contract. They were forced to keep Gustav Nyquist down in Grand Rapids for another month because they literally didn't have the cap room to bring up a league minimum rookie because they needed to give a 35+ Cleary a contract. By the way, the Wings are lucky that the NHL just passed on investigating the circumstances of Cleary's contract. It's completely arguable that the Wings actually had an agreement to sign Cleary to the 3 year extension that Philadelphia offered him in one of his PTOs but handled it as three distinct 1 year contracts to massage cap hits. Yes, it is a very easy argument that the Red Wings circumvented the salary cap for Dan Cleary but the league didn't do anything about it because Dan Cleary was completely irrelevant by that point.

It's funny. You bitch over and over about these meaningless contracts without expressing one alternative that was going to
A. Address the owner's desire to continue the streak
And
B. Continue contending without Lidstrom, Datsyuk and Zetterberg

Your argument is based solely on petulance. You were spoiled by having all the toys and the NHL came and took them away from you in favor of golden boy Sydney Crosby. Literally every change the NHL sought was based on what would damage the Detroit Red Wings.
In reality those contracts were insignificant but some people are petulant. Some people just need someone to blame. It's embarrassing how a sizeable portion of the fan base has behaved.
Oh and I noted that you avoided the Callahan contract that actually and actively harmed Tampa in favor of whining about Nyquist in the AHL for a month. It would be funny if it wasn't so craven.

 

[Revenge of Gru]

I don't know, I can safely say that I would prefer Yzerman over Kenny in a rebuild. Or, more accurately, I don't think Holland would be particularly effective as a rebuilding GM. I wrote a post a few weeks ago basically stating this but: Ken Holland was an incredible GM and the perfect leader for the Wings throughout the 90's and 00's. I just believe that for all the credit I give him to the success of those team, what we need from our GM now, is the exact antithesis of Holland's strengths.

Holland was cautious, steady, patient, and precise. He was loyal, respectful, and at all times a professional. Everything through relationships and in private. He honored and defended the players who played for him, who gave them his all, and he rewarded that with loyalty in kind. Players respected that and respected the Red Wings because of that approach. It was because of him and that attitude, that so many veterans would seek out Detroit or be willing to take pay cuts to play for them or often not speak to other organizations despite more money or opportunity. He prized experience and character. Holland wouldn't be rushed or compelled to take reactionary moves if things didn't work out. It was always, careful, slow, and methodical. Lost to Sharks? Trade Yzerman for Yashin! ...no. Datsyuks deal can be struck? Panic! Trade him for Gomez! ...no. Often with Kenny, the best move, was waiting it out and not overreating and letting calmer heads prevail. I give Holland all the credit in the world because he showed us these traits time and time again. And it I truly believe it was because of this approach that he was able to maintain the quality of the Wings Organization for as long as he did.

But it's literally because of all of those traits, I don't want him in charge of a rebuilt. Now is the time to take risks, to walk from players, to think outside the box on a number of things, and maybe get carried away at times. I don't know if I could say with 100% confidence that Kenny wouldn't QO Svech, because that's just kind of the guy Kenny is. And I really do wish Svech the best of luck, because he certainly got some literal bad breaks that weren't his fault. And I think that's what Kenny would've thought too and tossed Svech a QO, and tried to reward the hard work when he would've been a longshot at best, with serious injury concern, and realistically the window was closed on him being a thing. I still think Holland is a great GM when given the right situation, I just don't think Detroit is it.

I think if you look at Holland's last 2 seasons he demonstrated that he knew exactly how to rebuild. The majority of the assets that people seem to think have us turning around in 3 years are assets that Holland acquired or pieces acquired with picks that Holland acquired. At this point Holland has done as much for the rebuild as Yzerman if not more. Stylistically there's more similarities between Yzerman and Holland than differences. The biggest difference is that Holland has more experience and Yzerman doesn't value grinding/character type players that win you cups. A Holland team is a team that most Detroiters can relate too. An Yzerman teams don't have that type of lunch pail character.

 

[cjm502]

Clearly Holland has the vastly superior record but Yzerman learned alot from him. The Wings would still be better off if Holland was still in the organization. He's the best GM of his era.

Reading this makes me question whether I'm in some weird alternate dimension or something.

 

[BinCookin]

I see this long thread and debate about Holland vs Yzerman... And I think, both these GM's are actually more alike than we care to admit.

The fact that Holland has his core already with Edmonton puts him in a different position than Yzerman. So their current decisions look very different. But if they switched roles, its very possible you would see similar actions.

All this being said, I am very happy with the job Yzerman is doing, so I would infect in retrospect do the same thing which is hire Yzerman in the first place.

Beyond that, there really isn't much to discuss. I don't hate Holland for the past, I think he did what was needed, but his contract length on 3rd liners was a real issue later.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I see this long thread and debate about Holland vs Yzerman... And I think, both these GM's are actually more alike than we care to admit.

The fact that Holland has his core already with Edmonton puts him in a different position than Yzerman. So their current decisions look very different. But if they switched roles, its very possible you would see similar actions.

All this being said, I am very happy with the job Yzerman is doing, so I would infect in retrospect do the same thing which is hire Yzerman in the first place.

Beyond that, there really isn't much to discuss. I don't hate Holland for the past, I think he did what was needed, but his contract length on 3rd liners was a real issue later.

They're absolutely more alike. Yzerman essentially learned the GMing game from Holland. The issue is that Holland never switched gears to rebuild in Detroit until it was far far too late to do anything. The lockout and recapture on their highest value assets along with some horrendous signings put them on a train track from which they could not jump off.

I'll never defend Abby and Helm. Those were insanity at its finest... but the rest of Holland's moves were generally speaking low risk, low reward moves. They weren't going to blow up in his face but they weren't going to do anything big to help either.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

They're absolutely more alike. Yzerman essentially learned the GMing game from Holland. The issue is that Holland never switched gears to rebuild in Detroit until it was far far too late to do anything. The lockout and recapture on their highest value assets along with some horrendous signings put them on a train track from which they could not jump off.

I'll never defend Abby and Helm. Those were insanity at its finest... but the rest of Holland's moves were generally speaking low risk, low reward moves. They weren't going to blow up in his face but they weren't going to do anything big to help either.

I don't think that's wholly true. Just because someone was your mentor does not mean you are exactly like them. There's no doubt that Yzerman learned a lot from Holland but so far in Yzerman's career I haven't seen a lot of emulation of Holland. Keep in mind that Detroit had a very strong executive management team in the 90s until probably 2008 when Bowman left to help is son build Chicago.

You can have a mentor but still be your own man and have your own style in a management capacity. The one thing I see Yzerman doing that Holland didn't do in Holland's last 10 years in Detroit is building a braintrust around him. I really do believe that the slow collapse of the Red Wings happened not only because Holland couldn't manage the salary cap with enough foresight but also because the best hockey brains that helped build 1 to 4 championships all left.

Holland replaced Joe McDonnel with Tyler f***ing Wright with his illustrious resume of helping CBJ draft f*** all. We had Jim Nill leave and Ryan Martin absorbed his duties instead of Detroit hiring a 2nd AGM. As I said before, Bowman left and we lost a brilliant consulting mind in the room saying, "What if?" That wasn't just a resource Holland used. Babcock also used Scotty as a sounding board during those amazing 4 years post 2005 lockout.

Also Holland always came off as the guy that worked with or for the coach, and not the other way around. We saw a lot of that with Babcock after 2008. In interviews and articles it's always come across as the coach of Tampa, Syracuse and even Detroit made it clear they worked for Yzerman. That's a HUGE difference.

Yzerman also seems more in tune with what's going on in the locker room than Holland did, especially post 2010 Holland. He's also much quicker to pull the trigger on a trade regardless of a player's talent as we've seen with Mantha and AA.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I don't think that's wholly true. Just because someone was your mentor does not mean you are exactly like them. There's no doubt that Yzerman learned a lot from Holland but so far in Yzerman's career I haven't seen a lot of emulation of Holland. Keep in mind that Detroit had a very strong executive management team in the 90s until probably 2008 when Bowman left to help is son build Chicago.

You can have a mentor but still be your own man and have your own style in a management capacity. The one thing I see Yzerman doing that Holland didn't do in Holland's last 10 years in Detroit is building a braintrust around him. I really do believe that the slow collapse of the Red Wings happened not only because Holland couldn't manage the salary cap with enough foresight but also because the best hockey brains that helped build 1 to 4 championships all left.

Holland replaced Joe McDonnel with Tyler f***ing Wright with his illustrious resume of helping CBJ draft f*** all. We had Jim Nill leave and Ryan Martin absorbed his duties instead of Detroit hiring a 2nd AGM. As I said before, Bowman left and we lost a brilliant consulting mind in the room saying, "What if?" That wasn't just a resource Holland used. Babcock also used Scotty as a sounding board during those amazing 4 years post 2005 lockout.

Also Holland always came off as the guy that worked with or for the coach, and not the other way around. We saw a lot of that with Babcock after 2008. In interviews and articles it's always come across as the coach of Tampa, Syracuse and even Detroit made it clear they worked for Yzerman. That's a HUGE difference.

Yzerman also seems more in tune with what's going on in the locker room than Holland did, especially post 2010 Holland. He's also much quicker to pull the trigger on a trade regardless of a player's talent as we've seen with Mantha and AA.

I'm not saying that he's exactly like him. I'm just saying that Yzerman learned a lot of lessons, good and bad, from Holland. I'm sure he'd tell you the same thing.

But I think there is a lot more of late 90s, early 2000s Holland in what Yzerman is and has been doing than anything. Maybe, as you say, the braintrust around Holland were able to pierce his loyalty veil and say "this is the right move, even if they hate you for it." Because that seems like something Bowman would have excelled at. A guy like Nill would be the same way. Also, that Holland knew he had to stay on top of his game when Nill was AGM, because if he didn't make moves with a chance of success, Nill was in and he was out.