Half-Assed GDT: STL DET

[i aint Dunn yet]

is the conner game a skills contest ?

 

[Fitrix]

Murray was fired before Army took over as GM, and I wouldn't really count Payne against him, seeing as he was Pleau's hire as well as the team was coming out of the rebuild into its contention window. Yeo was clearly a mistake on his part though, especially with the whole coach in waiting part too.

That said, I'd wager winning the cup probably reset the clock on Army's due date in the minds of the ownership group. So, essentially those mistakes are erased from his record.

I seem to be in the minority on that so I'm not going to argue further. I'm happy overall with Army honestly and he seems to be a sensible guy when it comes to managing the overall structure of a team. He puts the team first and I've always admired that. If he's the GM for another decade and we succeed under him, bring it on. I hope I didn't portray that picture as I've generally gotten positive feedback when I've posted here.

It just stinks, right? We won the cup and have regressed since. I think we all probably want answers as to why so we can fix it. Maybe Army genuinely knows, hence why he tried to trade Krug this summer.

 

[i aint Dunn yet]

the dude calling the game is a chooch


edit : the conner game

 

[Fitrix]

army said we could compete for 3rd in division bc he thought after dallas and colorado everyone else was flawed. i don't honestly think we have underperformed though. i just think we aren't good and that looks unwatchable some nights. and frustrating many others. but i don't see how coaching change makes us contender so i would rather not make berube a scapegoat for team that was always going to be mid at best.

Oh I agree there as well. I'm not saying Chief is the reason we're playing badly at the moment. I kind of hate the position I've put myself in in this thread as I think I'm panicking at the idea that we're losing and I forgot what that was like. Been a fan since I was in 3rd grade, which was 2001, so I've seen the majority of time having the team succeed on some level in the regular season. We had that dip right after the lock out, but other than that, I've been blessed by overall success with this team.

I love this team and just want us to win and hate seeing us struggle with a lack of whatever it is we're lacking is all.

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

I seem to be in the minority on that so I'm not going to argue further. I'm happy overall with Army honestly and he seems to be a sensible guy when it comes to managing the overall structure of a team. He puts the team first and I've always admired that. If he's the GM for another decade and we succeed under him, bring it on. I hope I didn't portray that picture as I've generally gotten positive feedback when I've posted here.

It just stinks, right? We won the cup and have regressed since. I think we all probably want answers as to why so we can fix it. Maybe Army genuinely knows, hence why he tried to trade Krug this summer.

We know why. It's always difficult to keep a championship roster together. It's impossible when the salary cap doesn't rise.

 

[Fitrix]

We know why. It's always difficult to keep a championship roster together. It's impossible when the salary cap doesn't rise.

Have to agree there. Just seeing how much Tampa and even Colorado's rosters have changed since their cups as well.

 

[i aint Dunn yet]

i bet a conner will win

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

Have to agree there. Just seeing how much Tampa and even Colorado's rosters have changed since their cups as well.

Exactly, and those teams had generational talents to keep them afloat. We don't have that luxury because we weren't bad enough to get them. If only Army hadn't made us one of the winningest franchises in hockey during his tenure...

 

[BlueOil]

While I can understand that point of view, Army tried to sell the fan base that we were competing for 3rd in the conference prior to this season starting. Whether that's realistic for not is up for debate as well.

I'm not even arguing the Blues are as competitive as the Oilers, my point in that was look at what a simple coach change can do to one team. I could even argue the spark the Wild saw when Evanson was canned at first as similar evidence (although they may be falling back as well now).

I think what's ultimately wrong with the team is honestly complicated, which is why it's fun to discuss, don't get me wrong. And like I said, if I'm the only one that thinks like I do, I can own that.

again the wild were expected to be significantly better so the results post change make some sense. the blues don't have much hidden potential for a new coach to spark so i would not expect to see much improvement from that change and would expect even more losses as the new coach tries to deploy this flawed roster.

i don't think you're in the minority in wanting change, but you might be in the minority expecting a coaching or GM change to improve the team's play anytime soon, and I think the odds of getting a worse coach or GM in place should be heavily considered, as it wouldn't be hard to end up there just trying to make a change

it's all up for discussion though, so it's not impossible berube gets let go. harder to see army ousted but not impossible if things snowball

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

That approach didn't seem to be an issue when the Cap was rising annually and we were busy winning a Cup.

Damn Army for not preparing for the unthinkable.

 

[Fitrix]

again the wild were expected to be significantly better so the results post change make some sense. the blues don't have much hidden potential for a new coach to spark so i would not expect to see much improvement from that change and would expect even more losses as the new coach tries to deploy this flawed roster.

i don't think you're in the minority in wanting change, but you might be in the minority expecting a coaching or GM change to improve the team's play anytime soon, and I think the odds of getting a worse coach or GM in place should be heavily considered, as it wouldn't be hard to end up there just trying to make a change

it's all up for discussion though, so it's not impossible berube gets let go. harder to see army ousted but not impossible if things snowball

I should be more clear that I don't ideally want a coaching or GM change at all. Chief and Army won the cup I waited 20 years for. I just want the team to succeed. This loss tonight, where we had multiple leads and squandered them away, with multiple PPs we didn't capitalize on and even taking a lead in SHGs over PPGs....there's just a lot of questions in my mind.

I love this group of fans and learning from everyone, so I think my takeaway is to look at the team differently than I have been. Maybe tailor my expectations more to reality.

Ideally, I'd love to see a hockey trade made. Problem is that it's December and those trades this time of year are difficult to make.

We still have a chance for some points here with Ottawa on Thursday, so I'll be right there with everyone watching and cheering for a turnaround to more recent results.

 

[Fitrix]

Exactly, and those teams had generational talents to keep them afloat. We don't have that luxury because we weren't bad enough to get them. If only Army hadn't made us one of the winningest franchises in hockey during his tenure...

I had admitted in another post that I've been blessed with the success in my fandom of the team, and I stick with that. You're right, we've had a LOT of success as a team since I've been a fan.

It's hard I think, as an individual fan, coming to the reality that either a) the team isn't as good as I'd hoped or b) we're underperforming the expectations I, personally, had from day 1 of 2023-24.

As long as we're all cheering on the St. Louis Blues, I think we're all on team Berube, Army, and Blues, so that's my focus after this loss.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

We know why. It's always difficult to keep a championship roster together. It's impossible when the salary cap doesn't rise.

Also impossible when you regularly slam the team up against the cap with no wiggle room, and sign long-term contracts that book much of the salary cap space in a few players and leaves little room for everyone else who's the glue of the team whether the cap is rising or not.

But Ted, noonecoodanode the cap would be flat! I've been a longtime proponent of leaving a few million dollars on the table for late-season moves instead of wedging against the cap ceiling as tight as f***ing possible and leaving no room for even callups without having to use emergency conditions for it. You plan conservatively and adjust from there, not plan aggressively and then have to figure out how to trim when reality doesn't match expectations. That approach (and a smarter approach to roster building) could have saved a whole lot of pain.

Instead, here we are. And we're not alone in that, other teams have been doing it (expecting huge increases, having to retrench when those increases are smaller) for years, and they never learn anything from it.

it's all up for discussion though, so it's not impossible berube gets let go. harder to see army ousted but not impossible if things snowball

Armstrong is never getting fired. As much as I (IMO, rightfully) drag him, I'll freely admit I know he's never getting fired. He's going to be here for life or whenever he decides he wants to step down, whichever happens first. There's a better chance he gets 5-10% of the team as a retirement gift than of anyone in ownership going to Tom Stillman and saying "enough is enough, either he goes or we'll find someone else in the ownership group to lead the franchise."

 

[Snubbed4Vezina]

If we leave a few million dollars on the table we likely don't win a Cup because we don't add that final piece in Pat Maroon who turned out to be a real difference maker.

How many recent Cup winners didn't spend to the cap?

Maximize your talent with the assets you have.

 

[Spektre]

I had admitted in another post that I've been blessed with the success in my fandom of the team, and I stick with that. You're right, we've had a LOT of success as a team since I've been a fan.

It's hard I think, as an individual fan, coming to the reality that either a) the team isn't as good as I'd hoped or b) we're underperforming the expectations I, personally, had from day 1 of 2023-24.

As long as we're all cheering on the St. Louis Blues, I think we're all on team Berube, Army, and Blues, so that's my focus after this loss.

 

[Fitrix]

View attachment 782483

I mean, not the image I was trying to portray at all, I'm not claiming to know more than anyone else. Just a fan of a team and want them to succeed is all. I'm sorry if I came across in the slightest as elitest.

 

[Blueston]

I mean, not the image I was trying to portray at all, I'm not claiming to know more than anyone else. Just a fan of a team and want them to succeed is all. I'm sorry if I came across in the slightest as elitest.

You are good. We are just testy bc the team stinks.

 

[Spektre]

I mean, not the image I was trying to portray at all, I'm not claiming to know more than anyone else. Just a fan of a team and want them to succeed is all. I'm sorry if I came across in the slightest as elitest.

You’re thinking too much. I was just joking.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Losing Jbo and Pietrangello CHOOSING to leave all before signing Krug hurt our window more than having Krug does.

I want to swing back to this, because I see it get mentioned quite a bit.

Did losing JBo in 2020 hurt the team? Sure, that was a hole that's not easily filled. But we'd lost the 2 games before he collapsed in Anaheim, lost the next 3 (0-2-1) and then won 8 straight as we finished the regular season on a 10-2-0 run. After those first few games, we apparently figured out enough to keep winning without him.

Beyond that? JBo was already 36. He was going to turn 37 that September. He wasn't keeping up that high level of play forever. At 37 and with 1240 regular season games + 75 playoff games + whatever he had internationally, at some point his play was going to tail off and it was likely to be sooner rather than later. Maybe we'd have seen signs of it in '20-21. Maybe it would have been sudden and swift. Who knows. But at some point, it was going to happen and we'd have had to figure out how to put him in a reduced role or deal with his declining play - and I'm hard pressed to see where we'd have filled it from within or think that Parayko would have taken the long-mentioned "next step" or even that Vince Dunn would have somewhat stepped into that role and added a new dimension that made the defense dangerous enough to offset the net loss of JBo's defense.

That's not an outright criticism of the argument that losing JBo killed the team's Cup chances, but more pointing out that we were probably getting near the end of his high-end effectiveness which then raises the question of how long a Cup window was staying open with him as an integral part before we needed someone else to fill that spot.

If we leave a few million dollars on the table we likely don't win a Cup because we don't add that final piece in Pat Maroon who turned out to be a real difference maker.

How many recent Cup winners didn't spend to the cap?

Maximize your talent with the assets you have.

On the question: nearly everyone "spends to the cap" but that's really a bad question because injuries can help a team "max out" the cap faster, and incurred cap dollars don't equal salary paid. The better question might be "how many recent Cup winners maxed out the cap before the season ever started," which ... again, the flat cap makes that easier, so you really need to be looking back a handful of seasons before 2021.

On the comment: I don't disagree, but there's zero reason to max out the cap before the season starts and then have zero room to maneuver and force yourself into the position where every move has to be dollar-for-dollar. I prefer "max out your talent as cheaply as possible," because that's a better way to build a strong team at the start of the season, add at the trade deadline, and have room to make moves for future seasons as desired. As demonstrated for the last 13-15 years, teams prefer to do the opposite and then have to pay someone else to take a sizeable (bad) contract to clear out cap room for a new, bigger contract.

 

[Linkens Mastery]

Well, I'm having a wonderful day now that I was told I was selected to go further in the hiring process. Soooooooooooo, whether we are terrible or we win, I'm going to bed in a good mood no matter what.

Just to make it clear, this and the Blues have nothing to do with each other. I am not interviewing for a coaching job.

 

[i aint Dunn yet]

do what now ?

* * * * me ... i hope its otter

 

[Linkens Mastery]

do what now ?

* * * * me ... i hope its otter

Bannister

 

[BlueDream]

Isn’t Ott in charge of the powerplay? That probably eliminated him from contention and why we’re going with Bannister.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Isn’t Ott in charge of the powerplay? That probably eliminated him from contention and why we’re going with Bannister.

If Ott is in charge of the power play, then ......... you know what, that makes way too much sense.

 

[mk80]

Just to make it clear, this and the Blues have nothing to do with each other. I am not interviewing for a coaching job.

Bannister only has the interim tag, so there's still time to get your resume to Armstrong for the opening, also now we need an AHL coach