Split League Consolidated All Star Team Discussion

[jarek]

I'd like everyone's thoughts on this, or even other ideas. What idea of my four is the best, and what other solution can you provide?

My solution is to simply name 1 rover for each year where rovers are available to be named. However, I'm pretty sure there's going to be an equal amount of rovers as centers. Well, there should be anyways. There may even be more rovers than centers, since centers tended to be the best player on the team.

 

[rmartin65]

Concerning the HoH/ATD jurisdiction issue- Personally, I don't see why there would be an issue. If people want to participate, this board isn't hidden or blocked in any way, and they can do so.

And since I am writing about it, I don't like the idea of the top playoff performers list. I guess I understand the desire to see a list which honors playoff studs, but are you really going to make a list that has Claude Lemieux over Sidney Crosby? I realize that Lemieux raised his performance more, but isn't that punishing elite players for being elite? I can only speak for myself, but I would much rather have Crosby (or hell, Ovechkin) over the Turtle.

As for the rover/center issue- that's a tough one. I too dislike the idea of combining the rover and center position. Without putting too much thought into it, I think that the idea of just having the rover slots as they are, regardless if there were 2 leagues or just the one league that had rovers. While some people might say that some we would be giving those rovers a free pass, how is that any different than AS teams during a weak year/period?

 

[jarek]

Concerning the HoH/ATD jurisdiction issue- Personally, I don't see why there would be an issue. If people want to participate, this board isn't hidden or blocked in any way, and they can do so.

And since I am writing about it, I don't like the idea of the top playoff performers list. I guess I understand the desire to see a list which honors playoff studs, but are you really going to make a list that has Claude Lemieux over Sidney Crosby? I realize that Lemieux raised his performance more, but isn't that punishing elite players for being elite? I can only speak for myself, but I would much rather have Crosby (or hell, Ovechkin) over the Turtle.

As for the rover/center issue- that's a tough one. I too dislike the idea of combining the rover and center position. Without putting too much thought into it, I think that the idea of just having the rover slots as they are, regardless if there were 2 leagues or just the one league that had rovers. While some people might say that some we would be giving those rovers a free pass, how is that any different than AS teams during a weak year/period?

I think before we come to ANY conclusions about what to do with rover voting, we should actually see how many rovers we're dealing with year to year.

 

[Johnny Engine]

Concerning the HoH/ATD jurisdiction issue- Personally, I don't see why there would be an issue. If people want to participate, this board isn't hidden or blocked in any way, and they can do so.

And since I am writing about it, I don't like the idea of the top playoff performers list. I guess I understand the desire to see a list which honors playoff studs, but are you really going to make a list that has Claude Lemieux over Sidney Crosby? I realize that Lemieux raised his performance more, but isn't that punishing elite players for being elite? I can only speak for myself, but I would much rather have Crosby (or hell, Ovechkin) over the Turtle.

As for the rover/center issue- that's a tough one. I too dislike the idea of combining the rover and center position. Without putting too much thought into it, I think that the idea of just having the rover slots as they are, regardless if there were 2 leagues or just the one league that had rovers. While some people might say that some we would be giving those rovers a free pass, how is that any different than AS teams during a weak year/period?

Without getting into it too much in this thread, I don't plan on giving much credit for raising one's game on that list. Crosby has done what he has done in the playoffs, and so has Lemieux, and I think that when you make a list like that, you quickly run out of room for guys who are first and foremost good stories in that discussion.

 

[jarek]

Without getting into it too much in this thread, I don't plan on giving much credit for raising one's game on that list. Crosby has done what he has done in the playoffs, and so has Lemieux, and I think that when you make a list like that, you quickly run out of room for guys who are first and foremost good stories in that discussion.

If you're doing a playoffs only list, you pretty much just have to remove from your mind the "eliteness" of a player and purely focus on their accomplishments in the playoffs.. regardless of what their name is. That, after all, is the purpose of the list, no?

I mean, ANY player can be the best in the world for very short spurts. I find it very believable that in 1986 and 1997 specifically, Claude Lemieux performed as a top-5 player in the world in the playoffs. We can say that without having to admit that he was, in fact, that good from a talent perspective.

 

[Dreakmur]

Another good question - what to do with rovers? We treat them like centers in the ATD and in the HOH projects, and I think that's the right thing to do. But in this project, we take center - already the most crowded forward position - and add rovers to it, then we've really cluttered it. We'd have centers and rovers missing the team that would have been 1st teamers had they played LW or RW.

There are centers every year that would have made the All-Star teams as wingers, so that shouldn't impact our decision making.

The position of rover should be recognized as a separate thing, though. As tricky as it may be to identify who played where all the time.

On the other hand, if we decide to just have a 1st, 2nd and 3rd team rover for the 1910-1922 seasons, being that there's no rover in the east, in all PCHA seasons except 1916 and 1917, every rover would be guaranteed an all-star team spot. I don't like that either, despite the fact that they were typically excellent players.

So... what do you think we do? The only thing I can think of that's even close to a solution, is to name three full teams and then "on the side" name a 1st and 2nd team rover.

Make a note of that and move on. Just like our consolidated scoring projects, there's nothing we can do about the fact that the leagues didn't start recording assists at the same time.

Alternate "solution" - name rovers on the all-star teams, BUT the 3rd rover spot is reserved for either a rover or a center, whoever merits it more.

Last "solution" - make two spots on every AST that are "C/R" - whichever two centers or rovers most merit the spots, get them.

Fourth solution - last one for real this time. Just name three forwards on each team, including rovers, regardless of position. There was so much switching around that we are never going to have it 100% correct anyway. This era was disproportionately strong at C and Rover anyway, as opposed to wing. These are the drafted players from this year who played mostly in the pre-NHL-ASTs era, listed by predominant position:

best Centers and Rovers: Lalonde, T.Smith, Foyston, Nighbor, MacKay, Morris, Keats, Malone, Frederickson, Taylor, Boucher, H.Smith, Morenz
best right wingers: Pitre, Oatman, Broadbent, Walker, Dye,
best left wingers: Crawford, Roberts, Harris, Noble, Denneny, Hay, Joliat

I see upsides and downsides to each solution.

I'm not sure I like any of these. I would just prefer to name each position, though I do agree it will be somewhat tricky to actually distinguish them at times.

Perhaps, before we start the voting, we should first come to an agreement on who the "official" rovers were in each season.

 

[jarek]

Perhaps, before we start the voting, we should first come to an agreement on who the "official" rovers were in each season.

That will indeed be tricky because injuries play such a huge factor. Missing a single game back then could mean missing 5% of the season, or more.

I know Bruce Stuart got hurt in 1910 and only managed to play in 7 games. He was Ottawa's starting rover that year. I can even tell you the specific game he got hurt in: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=wUMuAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7tgFAAAAIBAJ&dq=walsh&pg=6549,2793787&hl=en

He missed the rest of the year and Walter Smaill replaced him at rover it seems.

I would strongly recommend you guys read the report for that game. It was one of the most anticipated games in hockey history up to that point, at least in Ottawa. The mighty Renfrew Creamery Kings coming in to town with their stacked team (both Patricks + Taylor) against Walsh's Senators, the team Taylor played for just the season before. You can feel the excitement emanating from the writing.

 

[jarek]

Well, RB told me to do something else so here goes.

ELIGIBLE PLAYERS LIST FOR 1929-1930 ALL STAR TEAM

LEAGUES: NHL

PLAYERS LIST

|PLAYER|POS|TEAM||GP|G|A|P|PIM|PLAYOFFS TO RIGHT|GP|G|A|P|PIM
|Cooney Weiland |C |Boston Bruins | |44 |43 |30 |73 |27 | |6 |1 |5 |6 |2
|Frank Boucher |C |New York Rangers | |42 |26 |36 |62 |16 | |3 |1 |1 |2 |0
|Dit Clapper |FD |Boston Bruins | |44 |41 |20 |61 |48 | |6 |4 |0 |4 |4
|Bill Cook |RW |New York Rangers | |44 |29 |30 |59 |56 | |4 |0 |1 |1 |11
|Hec Kilrea |LW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |36 |22 |58 |72 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Nels Stewart |C |Montreal Maroons | |44 |39 |16 |55 |81 | |4 |1 |1 |2 |2
|Howie Morenz |C |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |40 |10 |50 |72 | |6 |3 |0 |3 |10
|Normie Himes |C |New York Americans | |44 |28 |22 |50 |15 | |||||
|Dutch Gainor |C |Boston Bruins | |42 |18 |31 |49 |39 | |3 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Joe Lamb |RW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |29 |20 |49 |119 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |11
|Ace Bailey |RW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |22 |21 |43 |69 | |||||
|Bun Cook |LW |New York Rangers | |43 |24 |18 |42 |55 | |4 |2 |0 |2 |2
|King Clancy |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |17 |23 |40 |83 | |2 |0 |1 |1 |2
|Harold Cotton |LW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |41 |21 |17 |38 |47 | |||||
|Carson Cooper |RW |Detroit Cougars | |44 |18 |18 |36 |14 | |||||
|Frank Finnigan |RW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |43 |21 |15 |36 |46 | |1 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Ebbie Goodfellow |C |Detroit Cougars | |44 |17 |17 |34 |54 | |||||
|Marty Barry |C |Boston Bruins | |44 |18 |15 |33 |34 | |6 |3 |3 |6 |14
|George Hay |LW |Detroit Cougars | |44 |18 |15 |33 |8 | |||||
|Pit Lepine |C |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |24 |9 |33 |47 | |6 |2 |2 |4 |6
|Albert Siebert |RW |Montreal Maroons | |39 |14 |19 |33 |94 | |3 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Harold Darragh |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |42 |15 |17 |32 |6 | |||||
|Eddie Shore |D |Boston Bruins | |42 |12 |19 |31 |105 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |26
|Herbie Lewis |LW |Detroit Cougars | |44 |20 |11 |31 |36 | |||||
|Aurel Joliat |LW |Montreal Canadiens | |42 |19 |12 |31 |40 | |6 |0 |2 |2 |6
|Tommy Cook |C |Chicago Blackhawks | |41 |14 |16 |30 |16 | |2 |0 |1 |1 |4
|Gerry Lowrey |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |44 |16 |14 |30 |30 | |||||
|Hooley Smith |RW |Montreal Maroons | |42 |21 |9 |30 |83 | |4 |1 |1 |2 |14
|Johnny Shepard |LW |New York Americans | |43 |14 |15 |29 |32 | |||||
|Charlie Conacher |RW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |38 |20 |9 |29 |48 | |||||
|Charley McVeigh |C |New York Americans | |40 |14 |14 |28 |32 | |||||
|Dave Trottier |LW |Montreal Maroons | |41 |17 |10 |27 |73 | |4 |0 |2 |2 |8
|Joe Primeau |C |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |5 |21 |26 |22 | |||||
|Murray Murdoch |LW |New York Rangers | |44 |13 |13 |26 |22 | |4 |3 |0 |3 |6
|Butch Keeling |LW |New York Rangers | |43 |19 |7 |26 |34 | |4 |0 |3 |3 |8
|Johnny Gottselig |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |39 |21 |4 |25 |28 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Wildor Larochelle |RW |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |14 |11 |25 |28 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |12
|Sylvio Mantha |D |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |13 |11 |24 |108 | |6 |2 |1 |3 |18
|Hib Milks |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |41 |13 |11 |24 |36 | |||||
|Art Somers |C |Chicago Blackhawks | |44 |11 |13 |24 |74 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Nick Wasnie |RW |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |12 |11 |23 |64 | |6 |2 |2 |4 |12
|Merlyn Phillips |C |Montreal Maroons | |44 |13 |10 |23 |48 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Joe Simpson |D |New York Americans | |44 |8 |13 |21 |41 | |||||
|Harry Oliver |RW |Boston Bruins | |40 |16 |5 |21 |12 | |6 |2 |1 |3 |6
|Andy Blair |C |Toronto Maple Leafs | |42 |11 |10 |21 |27 | |||||
|Hap Day |D |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |7 |14 |21 |77 | |||||
|Larry Aurie |RW |Detroit Cougars | |43 |14 |5 |19 |28 | |||||
|Jim Jarvis |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |44 |11 |8 |19 |32 | |||||
|Paul Thompson |LW |New York Rangers | |44 |7 |12 |19 |36 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Busher Jackson |LW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |31 |12 |6 |18 |29 | |||||
|Ty Arbour |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |42 |10 |8 |18 |26 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |0
|Duke Dukowski |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |44 |7 |10 |17 |42 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |6
|George Patterson |RW |New York Americans | |39 |13 |4 |17 |24 | |||||
|John McKinnon |D |Pittsburgh Pirates | |41 |10 |7 |17 |42 | |||||
|Jimmy Ward |RW |Montreal Maroons | |44 |10 |7 |17 |54 | |4 |0 |1 |1 |12
|Vic Ripley |C |Chicago Blackhawks | |40 |8 |8 |16 |33 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Earl Miller |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |28 |11 |5 |16 |50 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |6
|Red Dutton |D |Montreal Maroons | |43 |3 |13 |16 |98 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Rosie Couture |RW |Chicago Blackhawks | |43 |8 |8 |16 |63 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Frank Ingram |RW |Chicago Blackhawks | |37 |6 |10 |16 |28 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Percy Galbraith |LW |Boston Bruins | |44 |7 |9 |16 |38 | |6 |1 |3 |4 |8
|Harold March |RW |Chicago Blackhawks | |43 |8 |7 |15 |48 | |||||
|Albert Leduc |D |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |7 |8 |15 |90 | |6 |1 |3 |4 |8
|Eric Pettinger |LW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |4 |9 |13 |40 | |||||
|George Owen |FD |Boston Bruins | |42 |9 |4 |13 |31 | |6 |0 |2 |2 |6
|Bill Touhey |LW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |10 |3 |13 |24 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |0
|Leo Bourgault |D |New York Rangers | |44 |7 |6 |13 |54 | |3 |1 |1 |2 |6
|Bill Boyd |RW |New York Americans | |43 |7 |6 |13 |16 | |||||
|Marty Burke |D |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |2 |11 |13 |71 | |6 |0 |1 |1 |6
|Bill Carson |C |Boston Bruins | |44 |7 |4 |11 |24 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |6
|Frank Fredrickson |C |Pittsburgh Pirates | |9 |4 |7 |11 |20 | |||||
|Lorne Northcott |D |Montreal Maroons | |43 |10 |1 |11 |6 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Reg Noble |C |Detroit Cougars | |43 |6 |4 |10 |72 | |||||
|George Massecar |LW |New York Americans | |43 |7 |3 |10 |18 | |||||
|Stan McCabe |LW |Detroit Cougars | |25 |7 |3 |10 |23 | |||||
|Gord Fraser |D |Pittsburgh Pirates | |30 |6 |4 |10 |37 | |||||
|Bob Connors |LW |Detroit Cougars | |31 |3 |7 |10 |42 | |||||
|Art Gagne |RW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |33 |6 |4 |10 |32 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |4
|Billy Burch |C |New York Americans | |35 |7 |3 |10 |22 | |||||
|Lionel Conacher |D |New York Americans | |40 |4 |6 |10 |73 | |||||
|Stew Adams |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |24 |4 |6 |10 |16 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |6
|Lionel Hitchman |D |Boston Bruins | |39 |2 |7 |9 |58 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |14
|Bill Holmes |C |New York Americans | |42 |5 |4 |9 |33 | |||||
|Red Horner |D |Toronto Maple Leafs | |33 |2 |7 |9 |96 | |||||
|Mickey MacKay |C |Boston Bruins | |37 |4 |5 |9 |13 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Dunc Munro |D |Montreal Maroons | |40 |7 |2 |9 |10 | |4 |2 |0 |2 |4
|Al Shields |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |6 |3 |9 |32 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Tex White |RW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |29 |8 |1 |9 |16 | |||||
|Art Duncan |D |Toronto Maple Leafs | |38 |4 |5 |9 |49 | |||||
|Archie Wilcox |RW |Montreal Maroons | |42 |3 |5 |8 |38 | |4 |1 |0 |1 |2
|Alex Smith |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |43 |2 |6 |8 |91 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Armand Mondou |LW |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |3 |5 |8 |24 | |6 |1 |1 |2 |6
|Buck Boucher |D |Montreal Maroons | |37 |2 |6 |8 |50 | |3 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Bill Brydge |D |New York Americans | |41 |2 |6 |8 |64 | |||||
|Archie Briden |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |29 |4 |3 |7 |20 | |||||
|Bert McCaffrey |RW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |15 |3 |4 |7 |12 | |||||
|Georges Mantha |D |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |5 |2 |7 |16 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |8
|Cy Wentworth |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |37 |3 |4 |7 |28 | |||||
|Art Smith |D |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |3 |3 |6 |75 | |||||
|Clarence Abel |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |38 |3 |3 |6 |42 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |10
|Cliff Barton |RW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |39 |4 |2 |6 |4 | |||||
|Pete Bellefeuille |RW |Detroit Cougars | |24 |4 |2 |6 |10 | |||||
|Ching Johnson |D |New York Rangers | |30 |3 |3 |6 |82 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |14
|Wally Kilrea |C |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |38 |4 |2 |6 |4 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Hal Hicks |D |Detroit Cougars | |30 |3 |2 |5 |35 | |||||
|Leroy Goldsworthy |RW |New York Rangers | |44 |4 |1 |5 |16 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Danny Cox |LW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |24 |3 |2 |5 |20 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Danny Cox |LW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |18 |1 |4 |5 |18 | |||||
|Leo Reise |D |New York Americans | |24 |3 |2 |5 |12 | |||||
|Ren Manners |C |Pittsburgh Pirates | |33 |3 |2 |5 |14 | |||||
|Bert McCaffrey |RW |Montreal Canadiens | |28 |1 |3 |4 |26 | |6 |1 |1 |2 |6
|Harvey Rockburn |D |Detroit Cougars | |36 |4 |0 |4 |97 | |||||
|Jimmy Herbert |C |Detroit Cougars | |23 |1 |3 |4 |4 | |||||
|Earl Robinson |RW |Montreal Maroons | |31 |1 |2 |3 |10 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Leo Quenneville |LW |New York Rangers | |25 |0 |3 |3 |10 | |3 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Rodger Smith |D |Pittsburgh Pirates | |42 |2 |1 |3 |65 | |||||
|Harold Starr |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |28 |2 |1 |3 |12 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |0
|Teddy Graham |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |26 |1 |2 |3 |23 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |8
|Len Grosvenor |C |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |15 |0 |3 |3 |19 | |||||
|Harry Connor |LW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |25 |1 |2 |3 |22 | |||||
|Gord Brydson |RW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |8 |2 |0 |2 |8 | |||||
|Roy Burmister |LW |New York Americans | |40 |1 |1 |2 |0 | |||||
|Bernie Brophy |FD |Detroit Cougars | |15 |2 |0 |2 |2 | |||||
|Bill Hutton |D |Boston Bruins | |16 |2 |0 |2 |2 | |||||
|Syd Howe |C |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |12 |1 |1 |2 |0 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Ralph Taylor |D |New York Rangers | |22 |2 |0 |2 |32 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |10
|Sparky Vail |D |New York Rangers | |32 |1 |1 |2 |2 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Frank Nighbor |C |Toronto Maple Leafs | |22 |2 |0 |2 |2 | |||||
|Bill Phillips |C |Montreal Maroons | |27 |1 |1 |2 |6 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Herb Drury |C |Pittsburgh Pirates | |27 |2 |0 |2 |12 | |||||
|Obs Heximer |LW |New York Rangers | |19 |1 |0 |1 |4 | |||||
|Joe Matte |D |Detroit Cougars | |12 |0 |1 |1 |0 | |||||
|Ralph Taylor |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |17 |1 |0 |1 |42 | |||||
|Jesse Spring |D |Pittsburgh Pirates | |22 |1 |0 |1 |18 | |||||
|Leo Reise |D |New York Rangers | |14 |0 |1 |1 |8 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |16
|Gus Rivers |RW |Montreal Canadiens | |19 |1 |0 |1 |2 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |2
|James Hughes |D |Detroit Cougars | |40 |0 |1 |1 |48 | |||||
|Bill Hutton |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |18 |0 |1 |1 |0 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Helge Bostrom |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |20 |0 |1 |1 |8 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Art Gagne |RW |Boston Bruins | |6 |0 |1 |1 |6 | |||||
|Bobby Burns |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |12 |1 |0 |1 |2 | |||||
|Gerry Carson |D |Montreal Canadiens | |35 |1 |0 |1 |8 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Harry Connor |LW |Boston Bruins | |13 |0 |0 |0 |4 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Harry Foster |D |New York Rangers | |31 |0 |0 |0 |10 | |||||
|Gord Fraser |D |Montreal Canadiens | |10 |0 |0 |0 |4 | |||||
|Chas Dinsmore |C |Montreal Maroons | |9 |0 |0 |0 |0 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Bill Regan |D |New York Rangers | |10 |0 |0 |0 |4 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Bob Taylor |RW |Boston Bruins | |8 |0 |0 |0 |6 | |||||
|Cliff McBride |RW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |1 |0 |0 |0 |0 | |||||
|Myles Lane |D |Boston Bruins | |3 |0 |0 |0 |0 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Frank Nighbor |C |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |19 |0 |0 |0 |0 | |||||

Wow that turned out to be a whole lot easier than I thought it would be!

 

[jarek]

PLAYERS LIST FURTHER SORTED BY POSITION

CENTER

|PLAYER|POS|TEAM||GP|G|A|P|PIM|PLAYOFFS TO RIGHT|GP|G|A|P|PIM
|Cooney Weiland |C |Boston Bruins | |44 |43 |30 |73 |27 | |6 |1 |5 |6 |2
|Frank Boucher |C |New York Rangers | |42 |26 |36 |62 |16 | |3 |1 |1 |2 |0
|Nels Stewart |C |Montreal Maroons | |44 |39 |16 |55 |81 | |4 |1 |1 |2 |2
|Howie Morenz |C |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |40 |10 |50 |72 | |6 |3 |0 |3 |10
|Normie Himes |C |New York Americans | |44 |28 |22 |50 |15 | |||||
|Dutch Gainor |C |Boston Bruins | |42 |18 |31 |49 |39 | |3 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Marty Barry |C |Boston Bruins | |44 |18 |15 |33 |34 | |6 |3 |3 |6 |14
|Pit Lepine |C |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |24 |9 |33 |47 | |6 |2 |2 |4 |6
|Tommy Cook |C |Chicago Blackhawks | |41 |14 |16 |30 |16 | |2 |0 |1 |1 |4
|Charley McVeigh |C |New York Americans | |40 |14 |14 |28 |32 | |||||
|Joe Primeau |C |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |5 |21 |26 |22 | |||||
|Art Somers |C |Chicago Blackhawks | |44 |11 |13 |24 |74 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Merlyn Phillips |C |Montreal Maroons | |44 |13 |10 |23 |48 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Andy Blair |C |Toronto Maple Leafs | |42 |11 |10 |21 |27 | |||||
|Vic Ripley |C |Chicago Blackhawks | |40 |8 |8 |16 |33 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Bill Carson |C |Boston Bruins | |44 |7 |4 |11 |24 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |6
|Frank Fredrickson |C |Pittsburgh Pirates | |9 |4 |7 |11 |20 | |||||
|Billy Burch |C |New York Americans | |35 |7 |3 |10 |22 | |||||
|Bill Holmes |C |New York Americans | |42 |5 |4 |9 |33 | |||||
|Mickey MacKay |C |Boston Bruins | |37 |4 |5 |9 |13 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Wally Kilrea |C |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |38 |4 |2 |6 |4 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Ren Manners |C |Pittsburgh Pirates | |33 |3 |2 |5 |14 | |||||
|Jimmy Herbert |C |Detroit Cougars | |23 |1 |3 |4 |4 | |||||
|Len Grosvenor |C |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |15 |0 |3 |3 |19 | |||||
|Frank Nighbor |C |Toronto Maple Leafs | |22 |2 |0 |2 |2 | |||||
|Bill Phillips |C |Montreal Maroons | |27 |1 |1 |2 |6 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Herb Drury |C |Pittsburgh Pirates | |27 |2 |0 |2 |12 | |||||
|Chas Dinsmore |C |Montreal Maroons | |9 |0 |0 |0 |0 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Frank Nighbor |C |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |19 |0 |0 |0 |0 | |||||

LEFT WING

|PLAYER|POS|TEAM||GP|G|A|P|PIM|PLAYOFFS TO RIGHT|GP|G|A|P|PIM
|Hec Kilrea |LW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |36 |22 |58 |72 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Bun Cook |LW |New York Rangers | |43 |24 |18 |42 |55 | |4 |2 |0 |2 |2
|Harold Cotton |LW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |41 |21 |17 |38 |47 | |||||
|George Hay |LW |Detroit Cougars | |44 |18 |15 |33 |8 | |||||
|Harold Darragh |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |42 |15 |17 |32 |6 | |||||
|Herbie Lewis |LW |Detroit Cougars | |44 |20 |11 |31 |36 | |||||
|Aurel Joliat |LW |Montreal Canadiens | |42 |19 |12 |31 |40 | |6 |0 |2 |2 |6
|Gerry Lowrey |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |44 |16 |14 |30 |30 | |||||
|Dave Trottier |LW |Montreal Maroons | |41 |17 |10 |27 |73 | |4 |0 |2 |2 |8
|Johnny Shepard |LW |New York Americans | |43 |14 |15 |29 |32 | |||||
|Murray Murdoch |LW |New York Rangers | |44 |13 |13 |26 |22 | |4 |3 |0 |3 |6
|Butch Keeling |LW |New York Rangers | |43 |19 |7 |26 |34 | |4 |0 |3 |3 |8
|Johnny Gottselig |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |39 |21 |4 |25 |28 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Hib Milks |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |41 |13 |11 |24 |36 | |||||
|Jim Jarvis |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |44 |11 |8 |19 |32 | |||||
|Paul Thompson |LW |New York Rangers | |44 |7 |12 |19 |36 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Busher Jackson |LW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |31 |12 |6 |18 |29 | |||||
|Ty Arbour |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |42 |10 |8 |18 |26 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |0
|Earl Miller |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |28 |11 |5 |16 |50 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |6
|Eric Pettinger |LW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |4 |9 |13 |40 | |||||
|Bill Touhey |LW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |10 |3 |13 |24 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |0
|George Massecar |LW |New York Americans | |43 |7 |3 |10 |18 | |||||
|Stan McCabe |LW |Detroit Cougars | |25 |7 |3 |10 |23 | |||||
|Bob Connors |LW |Detroit Cougars | |31 |3 |7 |10 |42 | |||||
|Stew Adams |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |24 |4 |6 |10 |16 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |6
|Armand Mondou |LW |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |3 |5 |8 |24 | |6 |1 |1 |2 |6
|Archie Briden |LW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |29 |4 |3 |7 |20 | |||||
|Danny Cox |LW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |24 |3 |2 |5 |20 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Danny Cox |LW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |18 |1 |4 |5 |18 | |||||
|Leo Quenneville |LW |New York Rangers | |25 |0 |3 |3 |10 | |3 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Harry Connor |LW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |25 |1 |2 |3 |22 | |||||
|Roy Burmister |LW |New York Americans | |40 |1 |1 |2 |0 | |||||
|Obs Heximer |LW |New York Rangers | |19 |1 |0 |1 |4 | |||||
|Bobby Burns |LW |Chicago Blackhawks | |12 |1 |0 |1 |2 | |||||
|Harry Connor |LW |Boston Bruins | |13 |0 |0 |0 |4 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |0

RIGHT WING

|PLAYER|POS|TEAM||GP|G|A|P|PIM|PLAYOFFS TO RIGHT|GP|G|A|P|PIM
|Bill Cook |RW |New York Rangers | |44 |29 |30 |59 |56 | |4 |0 |1 |1 |11
|Joe Lamb |RW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |29 |20 |49 |119 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |11
|Ace Bailey |RW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |22 |21 |43 |69 | |||||
|Carson Cooper |RW |Detroit Cougars | |44 |18 |18 |36 |14 | |||||
|Frank Finnigan |RW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |43 |21 |15 |36 |46 | |1 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Albert Siebert |RW |Montreal Maroons | |39 |14 |19 |33 |94 | |3 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Hooley Smith |RW |Montreal Maroons | |42 |21 |9 |30 |83 | |4 |1 |1 |2 |14
|Charlie Conacher |RW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |38 |20 |9 |29 |48 | |||||
|Wildor Larochelle |RW |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |14 |11 |25 |28 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |12
|Nick Wasnie |RW |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |12 |11 |23 |64 | |6 |2 |2 |4 |12
|Harry Oliver |RW |Boston Bruins | |40 |16 |5 |21 |12 | |6 |2 |1 |3 |6
|Larry Aurie |RW |Detroit Cougars | |43 |14 |5 |19 |28 | |||||
|George Patterson |RW |New York Americans | |39 |13 |4 |17 |24 | |||||
|Jimmy Ward |RW |Montreal Maroons | |44 |10 |7 |17 |54 | |4 |0 |1 |1 |12
|Rosie Couture |RW |Chicago Blackhawks | |43 |8 |8 |16 |63 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Frank Ingram |RW |Chicago Blackhawks | |37 |6 |10 |16 |28 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Harold March |RW |Chicago Blackhawks | |43 |8 |7 |15 |48 | |||||
|Bill Boyd |RW |New York Americans | |43 |7 |6 |13 |16 | |||||
|Art Gagne |RW |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |33 |6 |4 |10 |32 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |4
|Tex White |RW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |29 |8 |1 |9 |16 | |||||
|Archie Wilcox |RW |Montreal Maroons | |42 |3 |5 |8 |38 | |4 |1 |0 |1 |2
|Bert McCaffrey |RW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |15 |3 |4 |7 |12 | |||||
|Cliff Barton |RW |Pittsburgh Pirates | |39 |4 |2 |6 |4 | |||||
|Pete Bellefeuille |RW |Detroit Cougars | |24 |4 |2 |6 |10 | |||||
|Leroy Goldsworthy |RW |New York Rangers | |44 |4 |1 |5 |16 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Bert McCaffrey |RW |Montreal Canadiens | |28 |1 |3 |4 |26 | |6 |1 |1 |2 |6
|Earl Robinson |RW |Montreal Maroons | |31 |1 |2 |3 |10 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Gord Brydson |RW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |8 |2 |0 |2 |8 | |||||
|Gus Rivers |RW |Montreal Canadiens | |19 |1 |0 |1 |2 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |2
|Art Gagne |RW |Boston Bruins | |6 |0 |1 |1 |6 | |||||
|Bob Taylor |RW |Boston Bruins | |8 |0 |0 |0 |6 | |||||
|Cliff McBride |RW |Toronto Maple Leafs | |1 |0 |0 |0 |0 | |||||

DEFENSE

|PLAYER|POS|TEAM||GP|G|A|P|PIM|PLAYOFFS TO RIGHT|GP|G|A|P|PIM
|King Clancy |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |17 |23 |40 |83 | |2 |0 |1 |1 |2
|Eddie Shore |D |Boston Bruins | |42 |12 |19 |31 |105 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |26
|Sylvio Mantha |D |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |13 |11 |24 |108 | |6 |2 |1 |3 |18
|Joe Simpson |D |New York Americans | |44 |8 |13 |21 |41 | |||||
|Hap Day |D |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |7 |14 |21 |77 | |||||
|Duke Dukowski |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |44 |7 |10 |17 |42 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |6
|John McKinnon |D |Pittsburgh Pirates | |41 |10 |7 |17 |42 | |||||
|Red Dutton |D |Montreal Maroons | |43 |3 |13 |16 |98 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Albert Leduc |D |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |7 |8 |15 |90 | |6 |1 |3 |4 |8
|Leo Bourgault |D |New York Rangers | |44 |7 |6 |13 |54 | |3 |1 |1 |2 |6
|Marty Burke |D |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |2 |11 |13 |71 | |6 |0 |1 |1 |6
|Lorne Northcott |D |Montreal Maroons | |43 |10 |1 |11 |6 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Gord Fraser |D |Pittsburgh Pirates | |30 |6 |4 |10 |37 | |||||
|Lionel Conacher |D |New York Americans | |40 |4 |6 |10 |73 | |||||
|Lionel Hitchman |D |Boston Bruins | |39 |2 |7 |9 |58 | |6 |1 |0 |1 |14
|Red Horner |D |Toronto Maple Leafs | |33 |2 |7 |9 |96 | |||||
|Dunc Munro |D |Montreal Maroons | |40 |7 |2 |9 |10 | |4 |2 |0 |2 |4
|Al Shields |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |44 |6 |3 |9 |32 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Art Duncan |D |Toronto Maple Leafs | |38 |4 |5 |9 |49 | |||||
|Alex Smith |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |43 |2 |6 |8 |91 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |4
|Buck Boucher |D |Montreal Maroons | |37 |2 |6 |8 |50 | |3 |0 |0 |0 |2
|Bill Brydge |D |New York Americans | |41 |2 |6 |8 |64 | |||||
|Georges Mantha |D |Montreal Canadiens | |44 |5 |2 |7 |16 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |8
|Cy Wentworth |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |37 |3 |4 |7 |28 | |||||
|Art Smith |D |Toronto Maple Leafs | |43 |3 |3 |6 |75 | |||||
|Clarence Abel |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |38 |3 |3 |6 |42 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |10
|Ching Johnson |D |New York Rangers | |30 |3 |3 |6 |82 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |14
|Hal Hicks |D |Detroit Cougars | |30 |3 |2 |5 |35 | |||||
|Leo Reise |D |New York Americans | |24 |3 |2 |5 |12 | |||||
|Harvey Rockburn |D |Detroit Cougars | |36 |4 |0 |4 |97 | |||||
|Rodger Smith |D |Pittsburgh Pirates | |42 |2 |1 |3 |65 | |||||
|Harold Starr |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |28 |2 |1 |3 |12 | |2 |1 |0 |1 |0
|Teddy Graham |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |26 |1 |2 |3 |23 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |8
|Bill Hutton |D |Boston Bruins | |16 |2 |0 |2 |2 | |||||
|Ralph Taylor |D |New York Rangers | |22 |2 |0 |2 |32 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |10
|Sparky Vail |D |New York Rangers | |32 |1 |1 |2 |2 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Joe Matte |D |Detroit Cougars | |12 |0 |1 |1 |0 | |||||
|Ralph Taylor |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |17 |1 |0 |1 |42 | |||||
|Jesse Spring |D |Pittsburgh Pirates | |22 |1 |0 |1 |18 | |||||
|Leo Reise |D |New York Rangers | |14 |0 |1 |1 |8 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |16
|James Hughes |D |Detroit Cougars | |40 |0 |1 |1 |48 | |||||
|Bill Hutton |D |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |18 |0 |1 |1 |0 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Helge Bostrom |D |Chicago Blackhawks | |20 |0 |1 |1 |8 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Gerry Carson |D |Montreal Canadiens | |35 |1 |0 |1 |8 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Harry Foster |D |New York Rangers | |31 |0 |0 |0 |10 | |||||
|Gord Fraser |D |Montreal Canadiens | |10 |0 |0 |0 |4 | |||||
|Bill Regan |D |New York Rangers | |10 |0 |0 |0 |4 | |4 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Myles Lane |D |Boston Bruins | |3 |0 |0 |0 |0 | |6 |0 |0 |0 |0

NO CLUE

|PLAYER|POS|TEAM||GP|G|A|P|PIM|PLAYOFFS TO RIGHT|GP|G|A|P|PIM
|Ebbie Goodfellow |C |Detroit Cougars | |44 |17 |17 |34 |54 | |||||
|Dit Clapper |FD |Boston Bruins | |44 |41 |20 |61 |48 | |6 |4 |0 |4 |4
|Percy Galbraith |LW |Boston Bruins | |44 |7 |9 |16 |38 | |6 |1 |3 |4 |8
|Reg Noble |C |Detroit Cougars | |43 |6 |4 |10 |72 | |||||
|George Owen |FD |Boston Bruins | |42 |9 |4 |13 |31 | |6 |0 |2 |2 |6
|Syd Howe |C |Ottawa Senators (Original) | |12 |1 |1 |2 |0 | |2 |0 |0 |0 |0
|Bernie Brophy |FD |Detroit Cougars | |15 |2 |0 |2 |2 | |||||

 

[VanIslander]

Is there any discount consideration for Weiland's embarrassing stand-by-the-crease for the non-offsidepass from 120 feet away season (his career year in scoring), when the NHL allowed that season no offsides until it realized it was killing the game, and changes the rules, yet Weiland still kept all those lame points!

You have him listed first on that stat list.

 

[jarek]

Is there any discount consideration for Weiland's embarrassing stand-by-the-crease for the non-offsidepass from 120 feet away season (his career year in scoring), when the NHL allowed that season no offsides until it realized it was killing the game, and changes the rules, yet Weiland still kept all those lame points!

You have him listed first on that stat list.

Because he finished first. Revisionist history is not what we're here for. If you can make a very compelling case that despite leading the league in scoring, he shouldn't be on an AST for the 1930 season, by all means.

 

[VanIslander]

Because he finished first. Revisionist history is not what we're here for.

So history books from 30 years ago(!!!) that talk about how his lazy lingering embarrassed the league and caused them to change the rules midseason are... revisionist?... but blind number crunching in the 21st century with no sensitivity to the facts of the time are somehow more "objective"?

 

[jarek]

So history books from 30 years ago(!!!) that talk about how his lazy lingering embarrassed the league and caused them to change the rules midseason are... revisionist?... but blind number crunching in the 21st century with no sensitivity to the facts of the time are somehow more "objective"?

VanI, if you have a compelling argument as to why he shouldn't make our all star teams, backed up by quotes from your sources that claim these things, I and likely the rest of us would be more than happy to consider those things when making a decision.

 

[jarek]

So here are my initial thoughts for first team AS:

Kilrea - Stewart - Cook
Clancy - Shore

Kilrea outscored all other LW by a huge amount. Pretty amazing when you consider the only other player of note on that team was Clancy.

The Stewart pick is purely off the NHL awarding him the Hart trophy. There's probably something to what VanI is talking about regarding the NHL not being too pleased with the way Weiland was scoring, and it's probably why he didn't win the Hart himself.

Bill Cook gets the nod for the same reasons as Kilrea for LW.

The NHL has Lionel Hitchman as 2nd in Hart voting for this season. I can't imagine for the life of me that he was so much better than Clancy and Shore that he should have gotten the nod here. Those two outscored the other defensemen by such an amount, and given the quality of their all around games that we know about, I just can't see how these two don't make the first team. I think more digging would need to be done about this.

First team honestly seems pretty straight forward for this season. Second team.. not so much.

 

[jarek]

For Goodfellow and Clapper, their point totals suggest they were D and RW this year, respectively. If that's true, it's a VERY EASY Cook-Clapper for the RW AS, just not sure which order.

 

[jarek]

Wow I totally forgot to include goalies in the list!

 

[ResilientBeast]

To you comment about Hitchman I think that's the kind of historical revision we need to avoid. Clearly the voters thought he was that valuable

 

[jarek]

To you comment about Hitchman I think that's the kind of historical revision we need to avoid. Clearly the voters thought he was that valuable

I don't think we'd be doing due diligence if we didn't investigate this in depth. I'd like to see some passages from contemporary sources talking about his impact in 1930.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I don't think we'd be doing due diligence if we didn't investigate this in depth. I'd like to see some passages from contemporary sources talking about his impact in 1930.

Don't you see these two statements conflict?

Because he finished first. Revisionist history is not what we're here for. If you can make a very compelling case that despite leading the league in scoring, he shouldn't be on an AST for the 1930 season, by all means.

The NHL has Lionel Hitchman as 2nd in Hart voting for this season. I can't imagine for the life of me that he was so much better than Clancy and Shore that he should have gotten the nod here. Those two outscored the other defensemen by such an amount, and given the quality of their all around games that we know about, I just can't see how these two don't make the first team. I think more digging would need to be done about this.

So unless you can find anything damning enough to suggest that the voters got it wrong that year I wouldn't start your opening remarks by suggesting that.

 

[PatrikOverAuston]

To you comment about Hitchman I think that's the kind of historical revision we need to avoid. Clearly the voters thought he was that valuable

There are the following quotes from the Chicago Tribune in March of 1930 and the Detroit Freep in November of the same year that go a long way towards explaining why Hitchman was a Hart finalist:

It would be a rare case of an entire pairing being worthy of 1st team All-Star honors, but obviously contemporary journalists felt it apt.

 

[ResilientBeast]

There are the following quotes from the Chicago Tribune in March of 1930 and the Detroit Freep in November of the same year that go a long way towards explaining why Hitchman was a Hart finalist:

It would be a rare case of an entire pairing being worthy of 1st team All-Star honors, but obviously contemporary journalists felt it apt.

Good finds, obviously we don't need to follow the Hart voting, but to suggest that other defensemen deserve a spot on the first AST just because they score more.

 

[jarek]

There are the following quotes from the Chicago Tribune in March of 1930 and the Detroit Freep in November of the same year that go a long way towards explaining why Hitchman was a Hart finalist:

It would be a rare case of an entire pairing being worthy of 1st team All-Star honors, but obviously contemporary journalists felt it apt.

Great finds!

So unless you can find anything damning enough to suggest that the voters got it wrong that year I wouldn't start your opening remarks by suggesting that.

Those were just my initial thoughts. I think we should be questioning history if it doesn't necessarily pass the smell test.

What's even the point of doing this if we aren't going to scrutinize the details closely?

Good finds, obviously we don't need to follow the Hart voting, but to suggest that other defensemen deserve a spot on the first AST just because they score more.

They didn't just "score more". They scored orders of magnitude more. This isn't a case of a guy beating out another guy who scored 4 or 5 points more than him. 40 and 31 to 9.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Shouldn't the fact that Hitchman was voted ahead of those guys in spite of the scoring difference kind of prove our point?

 

[jarek]

Shouldn't the fact that Hitchman was voted ahead of those guys in spite of the scoring difference kind of prove our point?

So you're just going to blindly follow whatever the voters decided, then. If this is the attitude we're going to follow, I'm out.

 

[ResilientBeast]

So you're just going to blindly follow whatever the voters decided, then. If this is the attitude we're going to follow, I'm out.

You literally missed the point in which I said I don't think we should blindly follow the votes. But I have a hard time believing that those who saw him play and termed him more valuable than either of the guys you've listed. We may as well just make our teams based on points and be done with it.

You're only justification seems to be outscored by a margin and that's it.