Solving the Tanking issue

[MJ65]

Not a chance - never going to happen (simple as that), so it's a useless discussion

 

[indigobuffalo]

Craig Button made a great point on this topic on Leafs Lunch a while back when the NHL introduced the expanded lottery rules.

If you're the worst team in the standings, it's because your team sucks.

Creating rules that make it harder for bad teams to become better is counter-intuitive to creating a healthy league.

The NHL is really lucky that the Oilers are in Edmonton and not a fickle fanbase locale like Florida.

I'm not even a big fan of the expanded lottery so I definitely don't agree with OPs proposal.

Basically, what you really want is to give the pick to the actually worst team, not a team that "cheats" it's way to the bottom by trading away players at the deadline and impairing the team's ability to win simply by not having enough NHL-level skill to do it.

It makes a bad product for fans and isn't exactly honourable.

I think it would make more sense to look at a rule like:
"If you make a trade after Christmas you can't draft higher than 5th OA."

Preventing teams from creating ****** rosters to "tank" should be stopped.

And a team can appeal the rule if there is a viable reason, like Toronto could argue they needed to free themselves of Phaneuf's cap. But even then I would still expect they'd be hit by the rule.

 

[hockeyes]

There is nothing wrong with tanking and I think the lottery is stupid. I do think though there should be some limits, the only one first in last 5 years etc type deal. That is the fairest system IMO as it gives every organization a fair shot and if they squander their chances too bad.

 

[Azazel]

DGB (down goes brown) had a pretty good suggestion.

All points gained after a team has been mathematically eliminated determines draft order. Sucky teams have more games to build points (as they will be eliminated first) Teams are less likely to completely tear apart a team to reach last place because you still need to win games, and it places the focus back on winning rather then losing. Its not perfect but its the best suggestion ive heard.

He should still have a rundown on it on his site.

 

[Canada4Gold]

I think it would make more sense to look at a rule like:
"If you make a trade after Christmas you can't draft higher than 5th OA."

so teams aren't allowed to try to get value for their UFA's anymore?

Us trading Polak isn't tanking, it's called he's not going to be here next year so what's better, nothing, or a pick?

Oh you got an asset for the future when you would have otherwise had nothing, sucks for you but you can't pick top 5 anymore.

Such a horrible suggestion, almost all of these are.

Tanking doesn't exist. Rebuilding does, teams who do that tend to trade away current assets for future assets, being bad is a side effect.

 

[Canada4Gold]

DGB (down goes brown) had a pretty good suggestion.

All points gained after a team has been mathematically eliminated determines draft order. Sucky teams have more games to build points (as they will be eliminated first) Teams are less likely to completely tear apart a team to reach last place because you still need to win games, and it places the focus back on winning rather then losing. Its not perfect but its the best suggestion ive heard.

He should still have a rundown on it on his site.

also pretty much gets rid of sellers, nobody is selling anymore because they need their UFA's to win a pick.

Thus everyone is a buyer, thus there's no market, I'd rather have a trade deadline where trades happen.

 

[Azazel]

also pretty much gets rid of sellers, nobody is selling anymore because they need their UFA's to win a pick.

Thus everyone is a buyer, thus there's no market, I'd rather have a trade deadline where trades happen.

People would still sell for the very reason you mentioned in the previous post. Value for pending ufas. Teams in the bottom will still try to get value for expiring contracts and teams at the top will be looking for rentals. But you are correct in saying that no team would do it on purpose to weaken their team...so the trade deadline wouldn't see crazy unloading for the sole purpose of losing as many games as possible.

 

[Canada4Gold]

People would still sell for the very reason you mentioned in the previous post. Value for pending ufas. Teams in the bottom will still try to get value for expiring contracts and teams at the top will be looking for rentals. But you are correct in saying that no team would do it on purpose to weaken their team...so the trade deadline wouldn't see crazy unloading for the sole purpose of losing as many games as possible.

If I'm a team and I can trade my UFA's a get some value in mid range picks, and lose more games and screw my pick over, or I can keep those guys to improve my 1st round pick. You know what option everyone is choosing.

Teams trade UFA's now because they have no value to keep them to a team who's not going to make the playoffs, now they would, so far far far fewer of them would be traded. And you pretty much eliminate any trade involving a non-UFA. So yes you basically just killed the in season trade market.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Just have a lottery previous to determine if the presidents trophy winner or the last place team gets the first pick overall. Then lottery off the picks # 3 to 14 with equal odds.

Or just lottery off the non play off teams with equal odds

No more intentional tanks. Boom.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Just have a lottery previous to determine if the presidents trophy winner or the last place team gets the first pick overall. Then lottery off the picks # 3 to 14 with equal odds.

Or just lottery off the non play off teams with equal odds

No more intentional tanks. Boom.

giving the best team in the league a chance at the 1st overall pick? Yeah that's a solution

 

[Wafflewhipper]

giving the best team in the league a chance at the 1st overall pick? Yeah that's a solution

Whats your solution genius. There are other options listed. Go shake yer pillow.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Whats your solution genius.

there's no problem. Bad teams are bad, they need to get better. They've made it so nobody is guaranteed a top 3 pick, that's good enough. Bad teams still need a way to get better.

If there was a problem, the solution sure as hell wouldn't be give the best team in the league a chance at another franchise player, google parity

 

[indigobuffalo]

so teams aren't allowed to try to get value for their UFA's anymore?

Us trading Polak isn't tanking, it's called he's not going to be here next year so what's better, nothing, or a pick?

Oh you got an asset for the future when you would have otherwise had nothing, sucks for you but you can't pick top 5 anymore.

Such a horrible suggestion, almost all of these are.

Tanking doesn't exist. Rebuilding does, teams who do that tend to trade away current assets for future assets, being bad is a side effect.

You can make those deals in the off-season, or before Christmas, or just accept not having a shot a 1OA.

It doesn't prevent teams from trading UFAs to contenders, it just means that if a team is doing it to tank then they have a penalty for doing that.

And "tanking doesn't exist"?

Really, what did Buffalo do last year then? Every player that even came close to playing well for a stretch was dealt, and for next to nothing in most cases.

Murray was clearly tanking.

 

[indigobuffalo]

If I'm a team and I can trade my UFA's a get some value in mid range picks, and lose more games and screw my pick over, or I can keep those guys to improve my 1st round pick. You know what option everyone is choosing.

Teams trade UFA's now because they have no value to keep them to a team who's not going to make the playoffs, now they would, so far far far fewer of them would be traded. And you pretty much eliminate any trade involving a non-UFA. So yes you basically just killed the in season trade market.

It wouldn't kill trades at all, especially in today's cap world.

Just look at the Phaneuf deal. We added Michalek who is a pretty good player, and Cowen and Greening. Granted Greening is terrible and Cowen is injured, but the point is usually the team gets something in return.

You could conceivably see teams selling a UFA and packaging a 3rd or 4th to increase the value of the "cap dump" player they get in return.

 

[Leafs87]

I doubt the leafs are purposely losing

 

[sxvnert]

I doubt the leafs are purposely losing

Players and coaches aren't. Icing an ahl level hockey team will take care of the losses.

 

[34]

I don't think the Leafs are tanking at all, they are just that lousy now.

 

[sxvnert]

Would create a ghetto for bad teams like Toronto .... and they may never get out.
Terrible.

Terrible teams can find another way out besides having the top pick every year. There are six other rounds, free agency, and trades.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I don't understand why it's an issue to begin with.


Yeah, if teams are putting the puck in their own net, it's an issue. Nobody is doing that.


If you're trading your veteran players for picks and prospects to rebuild, you're going to have a bad roster that you hope gets better. Making it harder for that team to get better just causes more pain for the team in the long run...and depending on the market, that can be deadly.


A good example of what the impact of strict anti-tanking rules could be is the Leafs of the past decade - an awful team trying to compete at all costs on the back of talent that just isn't there.

 

[ConnorTO]

trading your captain isn't going towards tanking

DURP

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Terrible teams can find another way out besides having the top pick every year. There are six other rounds, free agency, and trades.

That's naive.
The draft is important in rebuilding

 

[WilliamNylander]

Honestly don't think there's anything wrong with it.

The only teams that tank are the ones that are actually bad anyways and need the best players in the draft the most.

 

[sxvnert]

That's naive.
The draft is important in rebuilding

Nothing in my statement claimed that it wasn't. Hence the 2-7 rounds comment.

Believing a team can't rebuilding itself without top picks is laughable.

 

[Menzinger]

Perhaps a less controversial suggestion is to simply make the top 10 picks a weighted lottery.. That way bad teams still have a higher chance at winning a higher pick, but it still gives middle of the pack teams a chance at getting a player who can turn them into a playoff team. And the. Throw in a rule that you can't draft #1 overall 2 years in a row.

 

[HoweHullOrr]

Just give us the top pick every year. They owe us.