Confirmed with Link: [SJS/COL] Matt Nieto and Ryan Merkley for Martin Kaut and Jacob MacDonald

[Lebanezer]

I don’t like this trade. I don’t see any regard for the future. Kaut was waived twice this year and could’ve been claimed for free. Essentially he has minimal value. Maybe he can boom, but that’s a big ask. MacDonald is quite old, 29, hard to see how that helps in the future. Any draft picks would’ve been better, since they have some future value. A 5th or 7th could be packaged with higher picks to move up in the draft. Nieto should’ve and probably could’ve netted more by himself. Merkley clearly has little value. My main issue with this is how it demonstrates the team construction philosophy going forward.

 

[Anomie2029]

I think it’ll be interesting to see what happens when a prospect forces Grier’s hand. Here’s the thing, there isn’t a single prospect in the AHL that is forcing Grier’s hand in calling them up. Merkley wasn’t very good. Eklund and Bordeleau haven’t been great. Cicek has been fine but not fantastic. If a prospect is lighting up the AHL (Kaut please do this) and Grier doesn’t call them up, that’s when the issues start. For now no one has earned that chance.

Lol have you even watched the Cuda?

To say Eklund and orderly’s haven’t been great, and then follow up with “Cicek has been fine”. Cicek has been a tire fire with the Cuda.

Merkley hasn’t been great but I wouldn’t have called him bad. He got benched in a bad game, only to have players like Onyebuchi, Kniazev, etc. to have as bad performances but still see ice time.

Merkley was solid in his NHL time last season, and with the Cuda he had improved his defence more than he got credit for. But, perhaps off-ice reasons, he never got any benefit of the doubt from coaching staff.

He definitely underperformed expectations, and one of my criticisms of him was that he never developed a shot to make himself a shooting threat. He would make a great dangle, create space - but rather than shoot when he didn’t have the passing option, he would keep dangling and take all options from him. If he was going to use his offence to compensate for his D, he needed to fix that

I have significant concerns about the Sharks development structure. I don’t think McCarthy is particularly good at putting young players in situations to develop, and the reliance on ex-sharks like Ricci as coaches despite no on-ice results coming through is setting back work of scouts.

 

[Gecklund]

Lol have you even watched the Cuda?

To say Eklund and orderly’s haven’t been great, and then follow up with “Cicek has been fine”. Cicek has been a tire fire with the Cuda.

Merkley hasn’t been great but I wouldn’t have called him bad. He got benched in a bad game, only to have players like Onyebuchi, Kniazev, etc. to have as bad performances but still see ice time.

Merkley was solid in his NHL time last season, and with the Cuda he had improved his defence more than he got credit for. But, perhaps off-ice reasons, he never got any benefit of the doubt from coaching staff.

He definitely underperformed expectations, and one of my criticisms of him was that he never developed a shot to make himself a shooting threat. He would make a great dangle, create space - but rather than shoot when he didn’t have the passing option, he would keep dangling and take all options from him. If he was going to use his offence to compensate for his D, he needed to fix that

I have significant concerns about the Sharks development structure. I don’t think McCarthy is particularly good at putting young players in situations to develop, and the reliance on ex-sharks like Ricci as coaches despite no on-ice results coming through is setting back work of scouts.

I mean I have Eklund/Bordeleau in the fine category too. From what I’ve seen Cicek was fine. Eklund and Bordeleau have turned it around from the start of the season to fine. I will say I don’t think Cicek should have been called and don’t think he earned a spot either but I think out of everyone on the Cuda he has the most low risk (kind of) game because I think Hatakka was injured. It’s hard too because at least at forward we have promising guys that I don’t want to ruin. On D we got nothing at all. That’s why I want a guy like Morrow/Nikishin/etc in the Timo trade.

Merkley is just there. The thing is he’s bad defensively but doesn’t offer much offensively. This also goes for his NHL time.

The last paragraph we agree on.

 

[Dicdonya]

As someone who was Merkley's biggest fan when he got drafted, I seriously doubt he will ever be as good as Matt Benning. I've watched him now with 2 AHL coaches and in the NHL, he's just not very good unfortunately. I hoped after last year he might actually learn how to shoot, but that hasn't progressed at all IMO. Hopefully Colorado can get more out of him, because it definitely wasn't going to happen in SJ.

Also, Kniazev (who kinda sucks too) has almost a .5 ppg scoring rate (13 points in 33 games), is a better skater, and is a better defender. Playing prospects like Merkley over players who are actual NHLers is how you become the Coyotes or 2010s Oilers.

Seeing Karlsson under Quinn vs Boughner, I am extremely dubious of any argument that Merkley, or any of our more creative or high risk/reward prospects and players, have had any real chance to shine on this team under his tenure.

Karlsson has finally been freed to play his game, one of extreme mobility, fluid movement and positioning, high risk/reward passes and plays, and most importantly his teammates have been coached or allowed to adapt to that style. Long gone are the days where the Dman just has to sit his ass at the blue line looking for one timers and shots for tips/rebounds. The forwards are prepared and coached well for when any of the Dmen, but most noticeably Karlsson obviously, skate the puck up the ice, or find themselves behind the net in the Ozone, unlike under Boughner where if they did that and turned the puck over trying to make a play it would be a guaranteed odd man rush the other way.

So with that in mind, I think Merkley, and probably a couple of our other prospects would have been far better off playing under Quinn this season and not in the AHL. Simply due to the system Quinn runs, and the freedom he allows for fluid and creative offense.

Also the AHL coaches he has been under......A dinosaur that has never to my recollection actually coached a "creative" offensive player into the NHL, and now a rookie coach that has coached some of our best prospects to the 2nd worst offensive output in the AHL, a bottom feeder record, and a defense that is in the bottom 10.

Just look at Kniazev as another good example since you brought him up. Seemed initially to have a wonderful chance of being a good skating, puck moving, offensive 2 way Dman, and now by your own admission kinda sucks. He regressed, Merkley has struggled mightily offensively under those coaches, Bords and Eklund cannot even crack the top 50 in points in the AHL, on and on. No one besides plugs and face punchers has graduated from the AHL recently. Now maybe all our picks and prospects were just trash.....I prefer to think our coaches and systems have been rigid, unimaginative, and not conducive to offensive output for quite a while now and that is screwing all our prospects up instead.


Lastly you become the Oilers by building a horrible team, trading players like Hall for Larsson, signing players like Lucic, and a LOOOONG list of other trash, to horrible contracts, never drafting or fixing the defense or goaltending etc etc. Playing their top prospects in the NHL has never been the issue in EDM. You clearly do not watch EDM if you think that has been the problem there. In fact EDM playing their best prospects is the ONLY bright spot in EDM during the last 10+ years before finally making the playoffs recently.

Hell even now they struggle to make the playoffs with the best player in the world scoring on a pace that hasn't been seen in multiple decades, and another of the best players in the world. It certainly is not because they are playing one of their top prospects (Holloway) on a nightly basis, or have Broberg/Bouchard in the lineup. Its because Nurse is still the best Dman they have, and he is mediocre at best, and their goaltending is average on a good day. Those two issues, defense and goaltending, along with overpaying horrible vets/depth, have been present the ENTIRE time that EDM has been bad/struggling to make the playoffs. Not over reliance on prospects.

 

[Pavelski2112]

Seeing Karlsson under Quinn vs Boughner, I am extremely dubious of any argument that Merkley, or any of our more creative or high risk/reward prospects and players, have had any real chance to shine on this team under his tenure.

Karlsson has finally been freed to play his game, one of extreme mobility, fluid movement and positioning, high risk/reward passes and plays, and most importantly his teammates have been coached or allowed to adapt to that style. Long gone are the days where the Dman just has to sit his ass at the blue line looking for one timers and shots for tips/rebounds. The forwards are prepared and coached well for when any of the Dmen, but most noticeably Karlsson obviously, skate the puck up the ice, or find themselves behind the net in the Ozone, unlike under Boughner where if they did that and turned the puck over trying to make a play it would be a guaranteed odd man rush the other way.

So with that in mind, I think Merkley, and probably a couple of our other prospects would have been far better off playing under Quinn this season and not in the AHL. Simply due to the system Quinn runs, and the freedom he allows for fluid and creative offense.

Also the AHL coaches he has been under......A dinosaur that has never to my recollection actually coached a "creative" offensive player into the NHL, and now a rookie coach that has coached some of our best prospects to the 2nd worst offensive output in the AHL, a bottom feeder record, and a defense that is in the bottom 10.

Just look at Kniazev as another good example since you brought him up. Seemed initially to have a wonderful chance of being a good skating, puck moving, offensive 2 way Dman, and now by your own admission kinda sucks. He regressed, Merkley has struggled mightily offensively under those coaches, Bords and Eklund cannot even crack the top 50 in points in the AHL, on and on. No one besides plugs and face punchers has graduated from the AHL recently. Now maybe all our picks and prospects were just trash.....I prefer to think our coaches and systems have been rigid, unimaginative, and not conducive to offensive output for quite a while now and that is screwing all our prospects up instead.


Lastly you become the Oilers by building a horrible team, trading players like Hall for Larsson, signing players like Lucic, and a LOOOONG list of other trash, to horrible contracts, never drafting or fixing the defense or goaltending etc etc. Playing their top prospects in the NHL has never been the issue in EDM. You clearly do not watch EDM if you think that has been the problem there. In fact EDM playing their best prospects is the ONLY bright spot in EDM during the last 10+ years before finally making the playoffs recently.

Hell even now they struggle to make the playoffs with the best player in the world scoring on a pace that hasn't been seen in multiple decades, and another of the best players in the world. It certainly is not because they are playing one of their top prospects (Holloway) on a nightly basis, or have Broberg/Bouchard in the lineup. Its because Nurse is still the best Dman they have, and he is mediocre at best, and their goaltending is average on a good day. Those two issues, defense and goaltending, along with overpaying horrible vets/depth, have been present the ENTIRE time that EDM has been bad/struggling to make the playoffs. Not over reliance on prospects.

The Sharks are trying to build an organization that would be right at home in 1998, but unfortunately it's 2023.

 

[WTFetus]

Lol have you even watched the Cuda?

To say Eklund and orderly’s haven’t been great, and then follow up with “Cicek has been fine”. Cicek has been a tire fire with the Cuda.

Merkley hasn’t been great but I wouldn’t have called him bad. He got benched in a bad game, only to have players like Onyebuchi, Kniazev, etc. to have as bad performances but still see ice time.

Merkley was solid in his NHL time last season, and with the Cuda he had improved his defence more than he got credit for. But, perhaps off-ice reasons, he never got any benefit of the doubt from coaching staff.

He definitely underperformed expectations, and one of my criticisms of him was that he never developed a shot to make himself a shooting threat. He would make a great dangle, create space - but rather than shoot when he didn’t have the passing option, he would keep dangling and take all options from him. If he was going to use his offence to compensate for his D, he needed to fix that

I have significant concerns about the Sharks development structure. I don’t think McCarthy is particularly good at putting young players in situations to develop, and the reliance on ex-sharks like Ricci as coaches despite no on-ice results coming through is setting back work of scouts.

Orderly. The new Shovels

 

[LadyStanley]

Ah

 

[themelkman]

Ah

No offense to Sheng but his same scouts say nice things about whatever garbage moves the Sharks do every year.

 

[StanleyCup2035]

Plot twist: the scout he talked to is Hasso’s cousin, who scouts for the Berlin Nursing Home Sharks.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

No offense to Sheng but his same scouts say nice things about whatever garbage moves the Sharks do every year.

Did the scout really say nice things? I saw “third line ceiling but probably a solid AHLer/NHL-depth tweener and an NHL depth defenseman for a reliable 4th line winger who is exactly that despite playing up the lineup because of the Shark’s shit depth and an offensive d prospect who everyone recognizes hasn’t generated a ton of offense”.

Seems pretty spot on to me.

 

[themelkman]

Did the scout really say nice things? I saw “third line ceiling but probably a solid AHLer/NHL-depth tweener and an NHL depth defenseman for a reliable 4th line winger who is exactly that despite playing up the lineup because of the Shark’s shit depth and an offensive d prospect who everyone recognizes hasn’t generated a ton of offense”.

Seems pretty spot on to me.

I dont have access to this one, but I was subscribed for a long time and the articles are usally the same and the guys usally are complete flops.

I respect the hustle and the positivity, but the truth is most moves just suck and thats okay to admit.

 

[jMoneyBrah]

I dont have access to this one, but I was subscribed for a long time and the articles are usally the same and the guys usally are complete flops.

I respect the hustle and the positivity, but the truth is most moves just suck and thats okay to admit.

Fair enough (I mean aside from, like, commenting on an article you apparently didn’t read - not that your estimation is wholly inaccurate)

At the end of the day, I do think it was a sober enough account of the trade. Nieto is a player of extremely limited value and Merkely is a prospect that started from, reportedly, Do Not Draft for a lot teams that, while not outwardly failing for the attitude problems that were so widely discussed during his draft year, has provided scant tangible evidence that he can positively contribute at the NHL or AHL level. Maybe he can make something of himself in Colorado. It’s clear it wasn’t going to happen for him here.

Kaut seems to be a reclamation project with some probability of being a middling bottom six forward (GMMG certainly has a type) and MacDonald is a credible depth player.

I simply cannot find it in myself to be aggrieved over this mostly inconsequential move. IMO this is simply what the doldrums of early stage rebuilding looks like. Strap in, because there’s a whole lot more ugly coming.

 

[timorous me]

I dont have access to this one, but I was subscribed for a long time and the articles are usally the same and the guys usally are complete flops.

I respect the hustle and the positivity, but the truth is most moves just suck and thats okay to admit.

This was the scout who always uses the line, "I've got a lot of time for so-and-so..."

I swear, he says that every time about someone. It's just funny because how often does anyone say that, yet it shows up in every Sheng scout article. Who knows, maybe it's the way these hockey scouts talk. I think this one is more about grit and compete-level and that sort of stuff. (He said that about MacDonald, btw, not Kaut.)

 

[landshark]

Kaut: the twenty-twenties James Sheppard?

 

[Gecklund]

Ah

I have a few buddies that watch NHL a lot more than me and are big stat nerds. They kind of say the same thing. MacDonald should be a solid 3rd pairing D and Kaut could be something in the NHL.

 

[stator]

Merkley was solid in his NHL time last season, and with the Cuda he had improved his defence more than he got credit for. But, perhaps off-ice reasons, he never got any benefit of the doubt from coaching staff.

Merkley seems like he cannot handle demotions and setbacks well. Sharks probably should have played him and gotten more trade value.

But we know, Sharks organization is stupid. Particularly with developing young upcoming talent. Can't wait for them to ruin Bedard. He should probably insist on a trade if Sharks win the lottery.

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

Mike Griers trade prowess is garbage tier

 

[TheBigDrunkPanda]

Merkley seems like he cannot handle demotions and setbacks well. Sharks probably should have played him and gotten more trade value.

But we know, Sharks organization is stupid. Particularly with developing young upcoming talent. Can't wait for them to ruin Bedard. He should probably insist on a trade if Sharks win the lottery.

Lol they honestly stopped doing that after Jillison they learned that lesson the hard way of ruining prospects by bringing them up way to early.

The sharks scouting team is an oddity, they always seem to blow early round selections but always find late round steals like Nabakov and Pavelski

 

[Jargon]

Merkley seems like he cannot handle demotions and setbacks well. Sharks probably should have played him and gotten more trade value.

But we know, Sharks organization is stupid. Particularly with developing young upcoming talent. Can't wait for them to ruin Bedard. He should probably insist on a trade if Sharks win the lottery.

Except that setting the precedent for your whiniest player, who can’t take setbacks, to continue to get to play in the NHL while overlooking guys who are both outperforming and outworking
him is not particularly fair or good for morale.

 

[LadyStanley]

 

[YUPPY]

Mike Griers trade prowess is garbage tier

Feeling like we went from (Nordstrom) experience with DW to (Walmart) experience with MG. The Sharks are becoming the Oakland A's of Hockey.

 

[Hobocop]

That's a weird number choice: Martin Kaut is listed as #87 for the Cuda on the AHL site.

Sharks roster lists MacDonald as #26, but that's probably wrong.

 

[stator]

Except that setting the precedent for your whiniest player, who can’t take setbacks, to continue to get to play in the NHL while overlooking guys who are both outperforming and outworking
him is not particularly fair or good for morale.

However you slice it, a young 1st round defenseman was basically traded for a bag of pucks; specifically an undrafted defenseman. That shows how bad this Sharks management has been. If you need more evidence, look at the trades (done and talked about) involving retaining salaries.

MacDonald and Merkley have one season with decent amount of games in their NHL club uniform. Both numbers are comparable noting that MacDonald played for the team that won the presidents trophy, while Merkley's team came in sixth from last place in the league.

Professional hockey life is not fair. For undrafted players to take a roster spot away from a 1st round pick, it has to be definitive. Teams don't treat their 7th round draft picks like their 1st round ones. That should not affect morale, it's just the way the big leagues are.

Feeling like we went from (Nordstrom) experience with DW to (Walmart) experience with MG. The Sharks are becoming the Oakland A's of Hockey.

Don't judge MG on DW's screw ups. DW put this team in a bad spot that's going to take time to get out from. Hasso should have fired DW years ago and prevented all of this.

 

[LadyStanley]

MacDonald wearing #9

 

[timorous me]

However you slice it, a young 1st round defenseman was basically traded for a bag of pucks; specifically an undrafted defenseman. That shows how bad this Sharks management has been. If you need more evidence, look at the trades (done and talked about) involving retaining salaries.

MacDonald and Merkley have one season with decent amount of games in their NHL club uniform. Both numbers are comparable noting that MacDonald played for the team that won the presidents trophy, while Merkley's team came in sixth from last place in the league.

Professional hockey life is not fair. For undrafted players to take a roster spot away from a 1st round pick, it has to be definitive. Teams don't treat their 7th round draft picks like their 1st round ones. That should not affect morale, it's just the way the big leagues are.



Don't judge MG on DW's screw ups. DW put this team in a bad spot that's going to take time to get out from. Hasso should have fired DW years ago and prevented all of this.

I mean, Merkley and Kaut are pretty much equivalent, except that one of them had been brought up to the NHL enough times and failed that he got waived (and passed through waivers). Well, that and four spots in their draft.

I guess the question then is if Merkley had come up and played in the NHL this year like he did last year, would he have also made it through waivers or would he have been claimed? I'm not sure. But the attitude problems (and the fact that getting Kaut via trade means he can actually go to the Barracuda without needing to go through waivers) help make this a closer to level deal.

Could we have gotten draft picks for both Nieto and Merkley? Yeah, but both likely would have been in the 4th/5th round or so. This deal sort of helps Grier save face with Merkley (because trading a 1st round pick for a 5th rounder would have looked bad) and that's sort of understandable to me. Kaut, even at this stage, probably is worth more than such a low pick.