SI.COM article: NHL needs to reexamine its alliance with Olympics

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Buda

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Nov 1, 2002
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Phanuthier said:
What does the NHL get out of this? Do they really "expand their markets" ?

They absolutely do. I personaly started following the NHL after watching the hockey tournament in the Nagano Olympics in '98 on TV. Had i not seen all those great players there, playing excellent and exciting hockey matches, i probably wouldn't have become a hockey fan that i am today. I know i'm just one little dude in friggin Croatia (where there is no hockey on TV other than the WC's and Olympics) but i'm sure there are others out there like me who became NHL fans for the same reasons. So i'm definately in favour of the NHL players participation. All that needs to be done is for the league to find the best solution to fit the event into its schedule every 4 years. That should not be so damn hard...
 

Raimo Sillanpää

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Phanuthier said:
That's because you can play basketball and baseball in Europe and Asia. How many hockey arena's do you see in Shanghai? How many hockey arena's do you see in Thailand?

In the European market, they already know about hockey. The Swiss already have a top notch league as well as the Scandanavian countries. Hockey isn't something new to them... if it would have got them hooked into putting money up front, they would have done it already.

I know what market they're targetting, I just don't know if they're pointing the gun in the right direction. Hell, they're still trying to secure a market in the USA. They were on the right track in 1994, and they have to go back to what was making them great then.

I think this is the NHL's last kick at the can. There's no use sending them to Vancouver.


There's very few stores in Finland where you can buy NHL paraphanelia.
I've seen Ranger socks at H&M once or twice..
Flyers boxers there too. Not recently though..

Authentic sweaters, basically hockey stores only.

But hey, you can buy a Team USA sweater at Prisma (like a local wallmart). Though thats not an official but a "fan" sweater.

When Toronto came over for that NHL challenge games some years ago, they played in front of full arenas, created an oppurtunity to sell Toronto Maple Leafs jerseys, socks, caps, scarfs..
Didn't go to the game so I can't say if they sold any or not. But they should have..

I reckon they should chip in with x amount of dollars, start up a NHL.com store in Helsinki, St Petersburg, Stockholm etc etc and sell socks, caps, boxers, sweaters etc etc try it for a year to see if the shops make a profit or not.
 

Egil

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After Canada won gold, NHL ratings in Canada increased significantly.

The NHL Olympic experiment needs the the US team to win gold, then they will reap the rewards.

The players also negotiated Olympic participation in the CBA, so it can't just be tossed aside (and I bet the players want the Olympics again next time as well).
 

Jussi

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Like I posted in another thread, the NHL should have started the season about a week earlier, This would have allowed for atleast 2 extra days at the start and end of the tournament and perhaps a slightly less exhausted schedule.

As for concentrating on the World Cup instead of Olympics, that tournament will never get the ratings Olympics get (outside of Canada) because the tournament lacks prestige and media interest. Plus the playoff games are in the middle of the night in Europe.
 

Jester

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Garbs said:
Oh please, it happens once every four years. What kind of ******** is this? If your organization is in such bad shape that a two week period in February is that crucial in keeping it financially stable, then your city shouldn't have a professional hockey team.

you did notice the complete lack of hockey last year, yes? dismiss such issues if you want, but it's completely ignoring the fact that even the "successful" franchises weren't exactly beating up on the bottom-line before.
 

Jester

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DownFromNJ said:
I'm sorry, but there is just something about professional athletes competing not for reward but for country that supercedes business concerns to me. If I am a professional athlete, the greatest pride in my life would not be to win a Stanley Cup or sink a 100 million dollar contract, but to put on the "USA" on the front of my chest.

Good luck winning a CBA battle on this one. Because if I am a player, this issue is damn well more important than increasing the salary cap. If I am an athlete, I'd give up a few extra million dollars on my contract just for the opportunity to play for the United States of America.

no offense, but that opinion is completely ridiculous. are you seriously telling me that you would spurn MILLIONS of dollars that could set up your family for multiple generations of comfortable living just to wear a jersey in a tournament? if a player were to choose that stance, more power to them... but i don't see too many players making that decision.
 

Jester

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Egil said:
After Canada won gold, NHL ratings in Canada increased significantly.

The NHL Olympic experiment needs the the US team to win gold, then they will reap the rewards.

The players also negotiated Olympic participation in the CBA, so it can't just be tossed aside (and I bet the players want the Olympics again next time as well).

the ratings see a bump following the olympics, but then return back to normal levels over time... people turn into watch their country play, get a lil bit interested... but then it's the same old thing and they have the old distractions elsewhere. it isn't as if the NHL is a new product that they're suddenly exposed to.

the Olympic effect on the NHL is a fallacy. it would be GREAT if it worked, but it doesn't. the ONLY way the NHL grows its existing markets is by having teams in those areas have consistent and extended success that builds a fanbase that is attached to the team... winning breeds fans... not some two-week tournament on the other side of the world.

as for interest in the NHL from Europeans... i think it's great that the participation is growing fans there, but the NHL's problems are large enough right now that it can't worry about building a fanbase abroad because the financial returns from that fanbase is trivial in comparison to the potential returns domestically that are necessary to support these franchises.
 

futurcorerock

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Not on a high horse or anythng, but I think you guys are missing the point.

The NHL has MUCH more to gain from letting it's players in the Olympics than you think. It's not playing in Torino, it's further in the future than a kneejerk HF could ever fathom

There's this little thing called the Winter Olympics being hosted again in 2010 -- Guess where it's at? An NHL City!!!! OMG!!!!!!

The NHL tried to bail on the Olympics and the IOC promptly told them that if they plan to make North American Olympiads their games to play, they basically weren't welcome at the games.
 

HockeyCritter

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Jester said:
DownFromNJ said:
I'm sorry, but there is just something about professional athletes competing not for reward but for country that supercedes business concerns to me. If I am a professional athlete, the greatest pride in my life would not be to win a Stanley Cup or sink a 100 million dollar contract, but to put on the "USA" on the front of my chest.

Good luck winning a CBA battle on this one. Because if I am a player, this issue is damn well more important than increasing the salary cap. If I am an athlete, I'd give up a few extra million dollars on my contract just for the opportunity to play for the United States of America.no offense, but that opinion is completely ridiculous.
are you seriously telling me that you would spurn MILLIONS of dollars that could set up your family for multiple generations of comfortable living just to wear a jersey in a tournament? if a player were to choose that stance, more power to them... but i don't see too many players making that decision.


The PA would never go for that; the players would never go for that. Why would 750+ NHL players be willing to take a pay cut so ten-percent or so may have a chance to play on a National Team?
 

HockeyCritter

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futurcorerock said:
Not on a high horse or anythng, but I think you guys are missing the point.

The NHL has MUCH more to gain from letting it's players in the Olympics than you think. It's not playing in Torino, it's further in the future than a kneejerk HF could ever fathom

There's this little thing called the Winter Olympics being hosted again in 2010 -- Guess where it's at? An NHL City!!!! OMG!!!!!!

The NHL tried to bail on the Olympics and the IOC promptly told them that if they plan to make North American Olympiads their games to play, they basically weren't welcome at the games.



Very true ----- Vancouver pitched a fit when the NHL considered NOT going to Italy this year.
 

HockeyCritter

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Another take

Time to pull plug on prosBy Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports | February 16, 2006

TURIN, Italy – After Latvia and the United States tied in men's hockey Wednesday, after the passionate Latvian fans waved flags and danced in the aisles, after the vast majority of remote controls in the U.S. tuned into American Idol, Arturs Irbe summed up the entire thing.

"You can say that this probably means more to us than to the American team," the former NHL and current Latvian goalie said.

Don't stop there, Arturs. It isn't just the American team that may not care all that much about its performance here at the Winter Olympics. It's all of America itself.

Every day, it seems tougher to be a hockey fan. Every day brings another reminder of how far the sport has slipped, how unlikely it is to ever capture imaginations again.

This isn't simply about a weak effort against the Latvians. This is about how another of NHL commissioner Gary Bettman's marketing experiments is failing, how another winter seems lost, how not even the Olympic Games can excite anyone.

<<<< snipped >>>>
 

mr gib

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Egil said:
After Canada won gold, NHL ratings in Canada increased significantly.

The NHL Olympic experiment needs the the US team to win gold, then they will reap the rewards.

The players also negotiated Olympic participation in the CBA, so it can't just be tossed aside (and I bet the players want the Olympics again next time as well).
well i hope mr bettman ramps up the hype machine in 2010 - the hockey will be prime time in LA -
 

Jazz

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Egil said:
After Canada won gold, NHL ratings in Canada increased significantly.

The NHL Olympic experiment needs the the US team to win gold, then they will reap the rewards.

The players also negotiated Olympic participation in the CBA, so it can't just be tossed aside (and I bet the players want the Olympics again next time as well).
Bingo!

And the US team failing to make the QF round will be disastrous as well. Remember that NBC currently has the rights to both the NHL and the Olympics, so as long as that is the case, and they can cross-promote both properties effectively, they will push the NHL to make sure they are involved.

Don't get me wrong, I love international hockey, and get more stoked for an elite tournament like this than for the NHL playoffs, heck I spend more time in the International part of HF than the NHL side (and I'm also an admin of another International forum). I am even hoping that hockey catches on in more countries around the world (and Olympic participation helps that).

But the problem is that many NHL owners are only looking at the bottom line, and currently, breaking for the Olympics does not do much from a business point of view.
 

Jazz

Registered User
Buda said:
Phanuthier said:
What does the NHL get out of this? Do they really "expand their markets" ?
They absolutely do. I personaly started following the NHL after watching the hockey tournament in the Nagano Olympics in '98 on TV. Had i not seen all those great players there, playing excellent and exciting hockey matches, i probably wouldn't have become a hockey fan that i am today. I know i'm just one little dude in friggin Croatia (where there is no hockey on TV other than the WC's and Olympics) but i'm sure there are others out there like me who became NHL fans for the same reasons. So i'm definately in favour of the NHL players participation. All that needs to be done is for the league to find the best solution to fit the event into its schedule every 4 years. That should not be so damn hard...

I agree, and examples like Buda's are what will help.

The only question is how many "Budas" are there each time around (each Winter Olympics)? Now Hockey is alive in Croatia, but barely. If Buda can help introduce the game to some friends/family and they put some future kids in hochey, then they can help bring up Croatia's position in the hockey world (currently ranked 30th out of 45 playing nations). And eventually, if things go right, then Croatia will be producing NHL calibre players....

That is the best case scenario...
 

blitzkriegs

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Phanuthier said:
And how many people stick with it and watch it?

I'd be interested in seeing how the numberse did after 1998 in Nagano. I doubt it had very much interest there - even after actually playing a couple NHL games there, ie. Flames vs SJ - and I also doubt you'll European and/or Asian numbers growing for the NHL.

We showed them in 1998. They got it again in 2002. I don't know how many times we need to push it.

How can you doubt numbers without knowing what they are. Are the numbers, the number of Euro's/Asians in the NHL? Jersey's sold? Hats sold? How many people on this board are from various parts of the world and can't wait for streaming live games?

When the Yankees brought in Irabu as a pitcher it opened up the Japanese market. Then came Godzilla. Now, the Yankees sell TONS of stuff to NA Japanese as well as in Japan. The Yanks actually now have stadium advertising, yes advertising in Japanese...Do you think the cash cow of all professional sports teams need really needs such advertising? Nope. But they $ and marketplace are there now to pay for it because they built it.

Why do European, British, Latin American, and Mexican soccer teams play tournaments or 'exhibition' games in the US? Moreover, ever notice how those games are strategically placed by cultural representation in such markets? No doubt they are.

The same reason the NFL played in Mexico City this year - a regular season game. The same reason MLB plays in Japan, the Orioles invited and played Cuba in Baltimore. The same reason there is the NFL Europe.

How many hockey arenas did DAL have before the Stars settled in? None. Now, they have 20+ within the DFW area.
 
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Injektilo

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On the topic of this whole "compressed schedule" bit....

These are the number of days/game in the last 10 seasons, for the Oilers anyway :

Season Days/Game
1995-96 2.28
1996-97 2.32
1997-98 2.24
1998-99 2.30
1999-00 2.32
2000-01 2.23
2001-02 2.21
2002-03 2.16
2003-04 2.15
2005-06 2.18


You can read the rest of the entry here

Funny, in 2002, the schedule was actually less compressed than in the next two seasons, and this season, it's less compressed than the last two seasons.
 

MountainHawk

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Personally, I think they ought to just take hockey out of the Olympics. There are 6-7 countries that are competitive on the men's side, and 2-3 on the women's. Not enough.
 

Phanuthier*

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futurcorerock said:
Not on a high horse or anythng, but I think you guys are missing the point.

The NHL has MUCH more to gain from letting it's players in the Olympics than you think. It's not playing in Torino, it's further in the future than a kneejerk HF could ever fathom

There's this little thing called the Winter Olympics being hosted again in 2010 -- Guess where it's at? An NHL City!!!! OMG!!!!!!

The NHL tried to bail on the Olympics and the IOC promptly told them that if they plan to make North American Olympiads their games to play, they basically weren't welcome at the games.
So... what? What's this big thing that's happening in the future? Are we gonna reap the benefits in 2050?
 

Phanuthier*

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blitzkriegs said:
How can you doubt numbers without knowing what they are. Are the numbers, the number of Euro's/Asians in the NHL? Jersey's sold? Hats sold? How many people on this board are from various parts of the world and can't wait for streaming live games?
Because I know the profit of the NHL in 1994 was growing fast - almost to the level of the NBA's - but from 1996 - 2004 (included a World Cup and 2 Olympic tournaments) the NHL saw its dwindle, and in many markets, go spiralling off into the crapper.

Yeah, I guess the NHL was real successful from all those international tournaments, right?
 

joshjull

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Phanuthier said:
Because I know the profit of the NHL in 1994 was growing fast - almost to the level of the NBA's - but from 1996 - 2004 (included a World Cup and 2 Olympic tournaments) the NHL saw its dwindle, and in many markets, go spiralling off into the crapper.

Yeah, I guess the NHL was real successful from all those international tournaments, right?

Save your energy the European fans just don't seem to get it.
 

Tb0ne

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Nov 29, 2004
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Phanuthier,

Shanghai, Thailand, those places are in very warm climates, especially Thailand, (jungles, extreame humidity) Hockey has enough trouble making in roads in places like Florida, what makes you think hockey would become popular in those sorts of area's, without first becoming popular in Northern Asia?

Cities in China such as Qiqihar, Harbin, Beijing, are Northern cities, and have growing hockey scenes according to the information I've read. Aparantly in Qiqihar for example, hockey is the #1 sport and provides a large number of the players for their World Championship team. If you factor in China's booming economy, growing middle class, the room for growth in the game of hockey in that area is astonishing. The billionaire owner of the NY Islanders even pondered "perhaps its time time start building some ice rinks in China". As for Nagano and Japan, it would be difficult to know if it is having any affect at this point, as it has only been 8 years since then, and any effects in terms of prospects and interest that the Olympic Hockey's showing could have generated, might not be felt for afew more years yet. The problem is though, that simply the NHL and IIHF arn't doing enough outside of competitions such as the World Championships (Men's, Juniors, etc), World Cups, and Olympics to grow the game of hockey. With the next Olympics most likely being awarded to South Korea (they narrowly lost to Vancouver), the NHL has a further oppurtunity in Asia, but this team they have to make more of an effort at the grass roots.

They have to go down to the grass roots more aggressively than they are at this point, build some arena's in countries where public/private funding normally wouldn't exist, work with equipment makers to bring the cost of equipment down so the game can be more accessible to a wider range of the population, (cost of equipment isn't only a problem in poorer countries, it's a problem IN Canada) send retired coaches and players over to help train the teams of developing hockey nations (see team Isreal, which has improved dramatically with a retired NHL coaches help), make coaching/instructional videos in as many languages as possible and sell them at fair prices and large quantities to national hockey federations to distribute at a local level on their own. The Olympics is part of bringing the game, played at it's very highest level, to area's where they normally would not have a chance to see it. But they are only one step, and not the final solution for growing the game. Does it help? perhaps, but without more investment in grassroots the effects will probably only continue to be minimum.

So... what? What's this big thing that's happening in the future? Are we gonna reap the benefits in 2050?

Exactly, this isn't as much about the here and now, its about securing the future of the game, and making sure if the NHL tries to continue expansion, that they have a talent pool large enough that the one ice talent level can continue to grow, instead of becoming increasingly diluted by more teams and more competition from Russia for players.
 

Phanuthier*

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Yeah, I know about Asia, ect ect. Do I think the Olympic games will help? Yeah, no doubt. Do I think it'll help to the point that its worth owners sacrificing seasons (i.e. Kiprusoff, Niedermayer, Lehtonen vs. Forsberg)? No, I don't. The losses for individual teams will far outweigh the total gains from the Olympics.

I personally think the NHL has enough trouble trying to secure a market in the USA, forget the World. We've tried to have exhibition and even regular season games across the ocean (ie. Japan) and its effect has been minimal thus far. At best, I'd give them the World Cup or World Championships, but there's no way (if I were an owner) I'll sacrifice a season for gains which will be minimal at best.
 

mug3n

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blitzkriegs said:
When the Yankees brought in Irabu as a pitcher it opened up the Japanese market. Then came Godzilla. Now, the Yankees sell TONS of stuff to NA Japanese as well as in Japan. The Yanks actually now have stadium advertising, yes advertising in Japanese...Do you think the cash cow of all professional sports teams need really needs such advertising? Nope. But they $ and marketplace are there now to pay for it because they built it.
Uh, you're comparing apples to oranges here.

In Japan, there is a genuine interest in baseball. Think about it, if Japan wasn't a baseball-dominated nation, would they even give a rat's *** if Matsui was a Yankee?

In Asia, there is no genuine interest in hockey. If you market the NHL in Asia, it's not easy... I don't think there are any Asians in the NHL (if you count Richard Park...).

I doubt the Nagano Olympics did much for hockey in Asia. It's a hot-cold-hot-cold thing. You get drawn in every 4 years, and in the pause in between, you go back to what you like - in Japan's case, baseball. Thus proves international hockey does NOTHING to market the sport on a macro scale for any non-hockey-interest area.
 

Jazz

Registered User
Phanuthier said:
Because I know the profit of the NHL in 1994 was growing fast - almost to the level of the NBA's - but from 1996 - 2004 (included a World Cup and 2 Olympic tournaments) the NHL saw its dwindle, and in many markets, go spiralling off into the crapper.

Yeah, I guess the NHL was real successful from all those international tournaments, right?
"Growing fast" - are you talking about the rate of growth, or the growth itself? And why are you talking about profit when it should be revenues.

During the entire CBA mess, it was reported that NHL revenues have gone from $700 million to $2.2 billion over the past number of years, ie it tripled

To be honest, we don't know the breakdown between domestic revenues and overseas revenue either...
 

Jazz

Registered User
mug3n said:
Uh, you're comparing apples to oranges here.

In Japan, there is a genuine interest in baseball. Think about it, if Japan wasn't a baseball-dominated nation, would they even give a rat's *** if Matsui was a Yankee?.....
Ah, yes! Not to the same degree, but there would definately be some interest. Eg, Hockey is way down the totem pole in France, but Huet gets media coverage...

It's the whole "making it big in America" mystique....
 
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