Should the Caps trade Brouwer.

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CapitalsCupReality

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It’s not a troll.

In fact I feel like I’m being trolled. I’m trying to be convinced that Wilson is both a one of a kind player AND that he wouldn’t return an absolute haul. Wild stuff really.
He just won’t return the haul you’re trying to convince us he will garner….they wouldn’t get an immediate upgrade over Willy.

I don't really view it as a second chance, I view it as salvage. Like "hey, you did so bad last year that we literally can't reasonably trade you even if you waived for all teams because you phoned it in real bad and sucked and nobody has any faith in you. So this year, if you invest your energy into playing even if it's just playing to get out and you make yourself something somebody wants, we'll do that for you, but if you don't you can figure out what to do in the box seats because this isn't continuing to happen."

And that's obviously just if they can't get a good value trade out of him right now, because if they could I'd take it, but I really think some combination of "play for it if you want it so bad" and Carbery hopefully not being the worst thing to ever happen to this team's skill players might accidentally make him have some fun this year.


But when that team gets completely beefed on in the run up to the playoffs because they've got "play drivers", Milano, ancient Oshie, no Hathaway, maybe Mantha pretending to be big...?

Who besides Ovechkin is even throwing weight for this team? They become the discount Maple Leafs from around the time when Thornton was the angriest son of a bitch on the team.
The problem….Kuzy don’t care. He got his $, he’s mailing it in.
 

HTFN

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He just won’t return the haul you’re trying to convince us he will garner….they wouldn’t get an immediate upgrade over Willy.


The problem….Kuzy don’t care. He got his $, he’s mailing it in.
Hey, that's a bummer this year but it's also fine too, you can send mail from the press box. It's still better to test him this year and try to inflate the asset than to punt at the worst possible time and then spend out the nose to replace the guy he used to be.
 

CapitalsCupReality

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Hey, that's a bummer this year but it's also fine too, you can send mail from the press box. It's still better to test him this year and try to inflate the asset than to punt at the worst possible time and then spend out the nose to replace the guy he used to be.
The time for tests are over, but they are stuck with the worthless loafer.
 
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HTFN

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The time for tests are over, but they are stuck with the worthless loafer.
I said above but I think it's a different test. It's no longer "show us why you belong here" and now it's very much "show us what we can get for you, because if we're paying it's not happening right now and you can rot. We aren't throwing away assets and Ovechkin's window just to let you off the hook so if you want out, you'd better woo somebody to take you".

If they're stuck with him and don't want him they can invite him to stay at home. I wouldn't love losing that cap hit there but it's still better than having him drag down the team on and off the ice.
 

Jags

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When Wilson was expected to be down for a while they went out and signed a discount version in Brown because it's a necessary and not well-supported part of their depth chart and team to have a guy who can play that way.

Trading Wilson without a plan for that is just trading one hole for another without a subsequent move to fill it.

I think twabby's point is that we *can* live without him. We did get Brown to cover for Wilson, but he was injured immediately and we played our best hockey of the year without either of them in the lineup.

That doesn't change the fact that he's an extremely valuable player, but he's got maybe 4 prime years left if he's lucky, those years will be expensive, and they don't line up with years that we figure to be good. Trade him for someone younger (twabby says Byfield but whomever floats your boat) who'll just be peaking as Tom fades and the rest of the team is coming into its own. That seems to be the theory.

He's not wrong. It's not a terrible idea given where we stand now. It's also just not worth this much discussion because it's one of those "If it happens it happens" kinds of things and every whisper from the Caps says it ain't.

He's worth keeping under the right circumstances and worth trading under the right circumstances. Shocking, right?
 

HTFN

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I think twabby's point is that we *can* live without him. We did get Brown to cover for Wilson, but he was injured immediately and we played our best hockey of the year without either of them in the lineup.

That doesn't change the fact that he's an extremely valuable player, but he's got maybe 4 prime years left if he's lucky, those years will be expensive, and they don't line up with years that we figure to be good. Trade him for someone younger (twabby says Byfield but whomever floats your boat) who'll just be peaking as Tom fades and the rest of the team is coming into its own. That seems to be the theory.

He's not wrong. It's not a terrible idea given where we stand now. It's also just not worth this much discussion because it's one of those "If it happens it happens" kinds of things and every whisper from the Caps says it ain't.

He's worth keeping under the right circumstances and worth trading under the right circumstances. Shocking, right?
Nobody's denying that. My posts in this thread aren't even denying that, but I haven't yet heard a deal that actually makes the team better and I think the team feels the same right now based on how they responded to the rumors.

It's a good computer game theory and I know that because I use it too but in the real world all 84 overalls aren't created equal and ours is a real good one. This team needs a Tom Wilson right now, and maybe now more than ever if they're bringing in younger blood and trading him will mean they don't have one unless they get an unreasonable upgrade (ala Brouwer to Oshie).

Byfield ain't it.
 

Jags

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Nobody's denying that. My posts in this thread aren't even denying that, but I haven't yet heard a deal that actually makes the team better

It's not the kind of deal that makes you better now. It's the kind of deal that feels shitty until it pays off years later. Strategically probably a very good idea, but always a tough pill to swallow in the meantime. I don't think there's such a thing as a win-now move for us that involves trading Wilson, but we're not winning now regardless.
 

HTFN

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It's not the kind of deal that makes you better now. It's the kind of deal that feels shitty until it pays off years later. Strategically probably a very good idea, but always a tough pill to swallow in the meantime. I don't think there's such a thing as a win-now move for us that involves trading Wilson, but we're not winning now regardless.
Buuuuut that's also exactly why it's a complete no-go as it flies in the face of everything they've promised Ovechkin. If Wilson is going it won't be until the deadline, same as Orlov, because they need to be able to say they did everything they could reasonably do before parting ways.

If needing him wasn't the reason the Caps shut this whole thing down as soon as they were asked directly that definitely is. In my own EA franchise? Maybe, even I sometimes carve out room for some sentiment. In the real world, with all angles truly considered? It's a firm no, and while there's enough reason to justify that on the ice it's amplified by the message it sends and the actual loss of the character they're giving away.

If anything Wilson's going to be putting in overtime this year covering for all the old people, ghosts, and inconsistent youth. You can't leave Ovechkin as the toughest, most confrontational guy on your team
 

CapitalsCupReality

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I said above but I think it's a different test. It's no longer "show us why you belong here" and now it's very much "show us what we can get for you, because if we're paying it's not happening right now and you can rot. We aren't throwing away assets and Ovechkin's window just to let you off the hook so if you want out, you'd better woo somebody to take you".

If they're stuck with him and don't want him they can invite him to stay at home. I wouldn't love losing that cap hit there but it's still better than having him drag down the team on and off the ice.
See I don’t see them doing that….no way they’re going to sit him for an extended period…I think he would become an instant distraction. We’ll see….certainly is the most potentially impactful player issue that needs to be worked out this year.
 

Jags

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Buuuuut that's also exactly why it's a complete no-go as it flies in the face of everything they've promised Ovechkin.

Does it? Aren't you then free to spend that $5 million elsewhere? Could you not receive something back that can help you now in another way?

We've won games without him. We've won HUGE games without him. We were playing like gangbusters without him or Brown in the lineup. In a world where we're not realistically competing for a Cup regardless, shouldn't we be lining all of our assets up so that they pay off when we ARE able to realistically compete?

There's plenty of ways to weather the storm in the meantime.

Look, this is a bit of a devil's advocate thing for me, clearly. I don't think we're trading him, I don't know what he's asking for on his next deal, and I adore him as a player. I'd be perfectly happy if he retires here. But you can't just stick your nose up in the air and pretend that it makes NO sense to trade him. It actually makes a lot of sense, it's just not likely.
 

HTFN

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Does it? Aren't you then free to spend that $5 million elsewhere? Could you not receive something back that can help you now in another way?

We've won games without him. We've won HUGE games without him. We were playing like gangbusters without him or Brown in the lineup. In a world where we're not realistically competing for a Cup regardless, shouldn't we be lining all of our assets up so that they pay off when we ARE able to realistically compete?

There's plenty of ways to weather the storm in the meantime.

Look, this is a bit of a devil's advocate thing for me, clearly. I don't think we're trading him, I don't know what he's asking for on his next deal, and I adore him as a player. I'd be perfectly happy if he retires here. But you can't just stick your nose up in the air and pretend that it makes NO sense to trade him. It actually makes a lot of sense, it's just not likely.
That's an irritating thing to read after admitting multiple times point blank that there is a way that it makes sense but won't happen without another GM making a pretty bold, likely bad decision. In arguing for the real world, the likelihood of a situation matters. That's the world where it's a pretty firm no. This has been very consistent in my posts, anything considered a steal would tip the scales but they're not getting it and not negotiating from a position where they can since anybody who wants Wilson now can pay less for him at the deadline as a rental.

EDIT: and if he's not for rent it's because they're winning, which sort of goes in line with the point. He matters to them right now more than optimizing his return does, and if that proves to be false there are still a lot of teams that will pay for what he does bring. Same as Orlov.
 
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Brian23

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As an aside, I am blown by the people who actually liked Brouwer back in 2013. Man was the 2nd best passenger this team's ever had, maybe first if you want to downgrade Laich.
 

twabby

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He just won’t return the haul you’re trying to convince us he will garner….they wouldn’t get an immediate upgrade over Willy.

Why are you so sure of this? Wilson is the exact type of player who is overvalued in league circles. We’re in the Troy Brouwer thread! He was traded for someone vastly superior to him! Why can’t the same be true of Wilson?
 
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HTFN

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Why are you so sure of this? Wilson is the exact type of player who is overvalued in league circles. We’re in the Troy Brouwer thread! He was traded for someone vastly superior to him! Why can’t the same be true of Wilson?
This is why you’re trolling. Brouwer was traded for a more talented and as physical forward who out produced him by ~20 points in prior seasons and would become a 30 goal scorer, and the Caps paid a B Goalie prospect and sweetener pick.

This idea you have that Wilson will pull a better player with no payment is the same shit you were complaining about when you said other posters want it both ways
 
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pman25

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Troy Brouwer - winter classic clutch performer. Why would we ever trade him?? Also his game 5 last minute winner vs Boston?

Guys, enough.
 

twabby

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It's not the kind of deal that makes you better now. It's the kind of deal that feels shitty until it pays off years later. Strategically probably a very good idea, but always a tough pill to swallow in the meantime. I don't think there's such a thing as a win-now move for us that involves trading Wilson, but we're not winning now regardless.

I disagree with this. I think, similar to the Brouwer deal, they can get someone better right now. I don’t know who that player is. Maybe Marner or Nylander. Maybe someone else. At this point it’s kind of stochastic. But I think with high probability there is a team out there that will overpay for him. Predicting the exact deal is kind of beside the point, just as predicting the exact Troy Brouwer deal shouldn’t have been a necessary condition for saying they should have traded him.
 
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Jags

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That's an irritating thing to read after admitting multiple times point blank that there is a way that it makes sense but won't happen without another GM making a pretty bold, likely bad decision.
Wilson is the exact type of player who is overvalued in league circles.

It wouldn't take a bad decision and he's not overvalued.

A handful of teams in the playoffs lacked Wilson's strengths, and they all could use the other things he brings. In one guy you get an immeasurable physical impact, scoring ability across the board but especially the "dirty" areas, net drive, and speed in every phase of the game and every situation. Oh, and when called for, he beats the living shit out of people at will.

Competitive teams that lack that gear would pay big for him, and justifiably so. Every year there are a few teams that need him. Exactly him. The window is closing and there's a price to get him now. It's not a bad decision and when your window is closing it's worth the price.
 

HTFN

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It wouldn't take a bad decision and he's not overvalued.

A handful of teams in the playoffs lacked Wilson's strengths, and they all could use the other things he brings. In one guy you get an immeasurable physical impact, scoring ability across the board but especially the "dirty" areas, net drive, and speed in every phase of the game and every situation. Oh, and when called for, he beats the living shit out of people at will.

Competitive teams that lack that gear would pay big for him, and justifiably so. Every year there are a few teams that need him. Exactly him. The window is closing and there's a price to get him now. It's not a bad decision and when your window is closing it's worth the price.
Right, but the Capitals are that exact team as soon as you send him away, so like… it has to be a lopsided and easy decision or you just swap one problem for another and hope luck is on your side.

If they’re only getting what he’s worth, it isn’t worth it to lose him at all and the team improves more by Mantha and Kuznetsov being real hockey players, because regardless of if they do or not the hole left by Wilson will be gaping without overpayment.
 

Jags

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I disagree with this. I think, similar to the Brouwer deal, they can get someone better right now. I don’t know who that player is. Maybe Marner or Nylander.

Oh, I see. You accidentally used LSD tabs to cover your shaving nicks. My apologies. I thought we were having a serious discussion.

And if you're serious, then it's you that overvalues him. Just you.
 
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Jags

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Right, but the Capitals are that exact team as soon as you send him away, so like… it has to be a lopsided and easy decision or you just swap one problem for another and hope luck is on your side.

The Caps aren't contending right now with or without him, so they can't be "that exact team" in any scenario.

The teams that *need* him are teams looking to raise a Cup or 3 during his remaining impact years. That ain't us.
 

HTFN

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Oh, I see. You accidentally used LSD tabs to cover your shaving nicks. My apologies. I thought we were having a serious discussion.

And if you're serious, then it's you that overvalues him. Just you.
See? Only names I hear are ones we’d add on, or Byfield
The Caps aren't contending right now with or without him, so they can't be "that exact team" in any scenario.

The teams that *need* him are teams looking to raise a Cup or 3 during his remaining impact years. That ain't us.
Contend, no, probably not without some luck or unforeseen development. Compete? Yes, and competitive teams don’t get rid of that guy until they aren’t competitive anymore. That means deadline, provided a contract isn’t in place, not now.
 

crazy8888

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Somebody please explain, was this thread bumped to compare Wilson to that locker room cancer troy whatever? If so i strongly disagree with the comparison.
 

CapitalsCupReality

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Why are you so sure of this? Wilson is the exact type of player who is overvalued in league circles. We’re in the Troy Brouwer thread! He was traded for someone vastly superior to him! Why can’t the same be true of Wilson?
What HTFN said.

So far you’ve done this with Carlson and now Wilson. Who are you selling off for an imaginary king‘s ransom next season?
 
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