Shots against and why this issue is not addressed in the prompt matter?

[Micklebot]

This is not early

This has been a problem for the last three seasons

Last year we averaged roughly 34 shots against per 60 at ES under MacLean, and 30.4 under Cameron. This year, we're averaging 35.6 (far too early to draw any conclusions mind you).

The sample under cameron was big enough that we can trust it. It should be an attainable goal. The difference is we aren't playing like the roster should be capable of.

Heck, under Cameron, with Karlsson off the ice, we still only allowed 30.8 shots per 60, and 28.8 with him on. So it's not a matter of Karlsson being lights out. The team was just plain better a shot repression under Cameron.

 

[Ouroboros]

With holding the ozone I find our d aren't very aggressive when it comes to pinching maybe due to lack of mobility

Sounds like we've got a hole...




...in our o-zone layer.

 

[Micklebot]

Sounds like we've got a hole...




...in our o-zone layer.

ugh....

That said, I find our offense is very much one and done. We aren't generating chances off the cycle, we gain the zone ok, but one shot (often wide) and the opposition picks up the puck and heads back the other way. I don't find we've been that bad at entering the zone, or exiting it. We haven't really gotten hemmed in our end with the benny hill theme music playing like in 2013-14. We just holding the OZ.

Personally, I find the forwards are loosing the OZ puck battles more than they should; this to me is resulting in both higher shots against and much lower for.

 

[God Says No]

ugh....

That said, I find our offense is very much one and done. We aren't generating chances off the cycle, we gain the zone ok, but one shot (often wide) and the opposition picks up the puck and heads back the other way. I don't find we've been that bad at entering the zone, or exiting it. We haven't really gotten hemmed in our end with the benny hill theme music playing like in 2013-14. We just holding the OZ.

Personally, I find the forwards are loosing the OZ puck battles more than they should; this to me is resulting in both higher shots against and much lower for.

I don't know. I find there are a couple instance per game where exactly this happens. It happened more frequently in the MTL game than others, but I could be wrong.

But I think you are mostly correct. Our offense is definitively one and done. While other teams spend a lot of time in our D zone. One thing that was kind of interesting that was said on one of the broadcasts, is that Cameron lets the players basically do whatever they want to do in the offensive zone. He lets them improvise. Maybe we need more structure in the O-zone as well...

 

[Othello*]

Not really answering the question:

If the 2nd pair, 2nd line and fourth line are the reason we've been outshot, how come Karlsson has a 43% CF and Methot 42% when on the ice with Turris? Why do both allow roughly 60 shot attempts per 60 when deployed with our top line center?

Something doesn't add up; if the players that you believe aren't the cause of the problem are having the same problem when together as the guys you think are the problem, maybe there is more to it than just a bad second pair, or 4th line. You can't blame Neil, Smith, Ryan, or Wiercioch for high shots against when they aren't even on the ice.

When did I say Karlsson and Methot aren't part of the problem right now? Ryan has a 31% CF, Zibanejad has a 32% CF and golden boy Michalek has a 34% CF; so yes they are part of the problem. The fourth line is slightly better but the get around 8 minutes a game.

 

[aragorn]

That's what happens when you have too much skill on a team, they play mostly on the perimeter waiting for the perfect pass. They don't hit, they don't win board battles & they don't muck after the puck, it's all stick work trying to steal the puck with your stick & only Stone seems to be great at it. Pitt not only out hit Ottawa they hit them hard with no response, comme d'habitude.

I think BM is right they do need another top 6 forward although I like Michalek with Turris & Stone & Hoffman with Zibanejad & Ryan. Prince with Lazar & Pageau seems very small & it will be interesting to see what they are able to accomplish, if anything. If BM does go after a forward I hope it is somebody with some jam like a Wayne Simmons or Milan Lucic.

 

[God Says No]

that's what happens when you have too much skill on a team, they play mostly on the perimeter waiting for the perfect pass. They don't hit, they don't win board battles & they don't muck after the puck, it's all stick work trying to steal the puck with your stick & only stone seems to be great at it. Pitt not only out hit ottawa they hit them hard with no response, comme d'habitude.

I think bm is right they do need another top 6 forward although i like michalek with turris & stone & hoffman with zibanejad & ryan. Prince with lazar & pageau seems very small & it will be interesting to see what they are able to accomplish, if anything. If bm does go after a forward i hope it is somebody with some jam like a wayne simmons or milan lucic.

lol.

 

[Back in Black]

That’s it. I’m gonna stop watching the Sens..............................until Tomorrow night!

 

[Calorissi]

lol.

I agree with what Aragorn was trying to convey.
The Sens are filled with 'skilled players' and are very short on grinders with enough skill and speed to be part of the top three lines.

There is no one who's job it is to create havok in front of the opposition net or to crush the opposition D into the boards so hard they cough up the puck the next time just to keep from being hit again.

We also tend to make far too many 'cute' passes in the O-zone instead of driving the net and crashing/pouncing on the rebounds.

 

[aragorn]

I agree with what Aragorn was trying to convey.
The Sens are filled with 'skilled players' and are very short on grinders with enough skill and speed to be part of the top three lines.

There is no one who's job it is to create havok in front of the opposition net or to crush the opposition D into the boards so hard they cough up the puck the next time just to keep from being hit again.

We also tend to make far too many 'cute' passes in the O-zone instead of driving the net and crashing/pouncing on the rebounds.

Thank you, thank you very much! My exact thoughts.

 

[Ouroboros]

That's what happens when you have too much skill on a team, they play mostly on the perimeter waiting for the perfect pass. They don't hit, they don't win board battles & they don't muck after the puck, it's all stick work trying to steal the puck with your stick & only Stone seems to be great at it. Pitt not only out hit Ottawa they hit them hard with no response, comme d'habitude.

Isn't this mainly Neil and Smith's fault? You always tell us that they aren't on the team to score, but rather to hit and "stick up for the skill guys". Sounds like they can't even get that right.

 

[bonehead]

Team lacks speed and skill.

As someone else said, we only have 3 or 4 forwards that can actually hold the puck and play a possession game (HST + Pageau). Too many slow skaters, not enough skill and pace to actually control the game (like our opponents seem to do at will in most of our games). This will continue as long as Mika & Ryan have "heavy" legs, Cowen+Boro+Wiercioch all start, and Chiasson+Smith+Neil is our 4th line. And just to be a little extra crabby, not too crazy about Karlsson's game either. He seems a little slow and careless compared to the last 40 games of last year.

 

[Lehner]

The people that said sit Neil, Smith is absolutely correct.

 

[Micklebot]

When did I say Karlsson and Methot aren't part of the problem right now? Ryan has a 31% CF, Zibanejad has a 32% CF and golden boy Michalek has a 34% CF; so yes they are part of the problem. The fourth line is slightly better but the get around 8 minutes a game.

I guess I thought it was implied when you stated the problem was lack of mobility on D that the pair with probably the most mobile dman in the league, and a very respectable methot wasn't the problem.

As for the stats you posted, they don't seem to align with any source I can find...

 

[Slack]

I agree with what Aragorn was trying to convey.
The Sens are filled with 'skilled players' and are very short on grinders with enough skill and speed to be part of the top three lines.

There is no one who's job it is to create havok in front of the opposition net or to crush the opposition D into the boards so hard they cough up the puck the next time just to keep from being hit again.

We also tend to make far too many 'cute' passes in the O-zone instead of driving the net and crashing/pouncing on the rebounds.

I agree with you and aragorn as well, but I think he was laughing at the idea of us having "too much skill," ie our skilled guys aren't that skilled (for the most part).

Unless he just disagrees.

 

[Calorissi]

I think that was probably what he meant too.

That said, I also believe that just upgrading the 'skill' quotient isn't enough.
We need to replace a few of those 'skill' players with a few that are 'skilled' and have some serious sandpaper. Not necessarily a tough guy but someone who will get under the other team's skin, draw penalties and stand up for our 'skill' players if needed.

 

[DrEasy]

So if it's Maclean all over again would you consider it a roster problem or a coaching problem? This is the NHL, so to me it's a roster problem. The coaching isn't going to change these problems, maybe adapt a system ie trap to cover the problem, but not fundamentally change our problem.

Well, the two are linked, aren't they? Coaches decide who gets the ice time. The coaches have decided to sit a puck-moving defenseman and go with slow-moving guys instead.

Last year, injuries changed the dynamics of the problem; we didn't make a trade to change the roster. That means we could have had the successful roster all along, but the coaches and management chose not to.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

I agree with what Aragorn was trying to convey.
The Sens are filled with 'skilled players' and are very short on grinders with enough skill and speed to be part of the top three lines.

There is no one who's job it is to create havok in front of the opposition net or to crush the opposition D into the boards so hard they cough up the puck the next time just to keep from being hit again.

We also tend to make far too many 'cute' passes in the O-zone instead of driving the net and crashing/pouncing on the rebounds.

Skilled players usually know how to cycle the puck

The Sedins cycle like pros

The problem isn't too much skill or not enough grinders

The problem is fundamental: you cycle the puck to draw the opposition out of position to open a lane for a shot or a pass

This edition of the Senators is seemingly incapable of executing this

Now this might have something to do with the handedness of our roster, I'm not the best at figuring out why the problem is there but I can recognize it: I've been saying for a few seasons now that this team is not cycling in the offensive zone and that cuts away at time the opposition has to defend and our scoring chances

There has to be something I'm missing though because I do not understand how it's still a problem after all this time

Well, the two are linked, aren't they? Coaches decide who gets the ice time. The coaches have decided to sit a puck-moving defenseman and go with slow-moving guys instead.

Last year, injuries changed the dynamics of the problem; we didn't make a trade to change the roster. That means we could have had the successful roster all along, but the coaches and management chose not to.

Correlation does not equal causation: the difference between a team playing like garbage and well is not going to be two fourth line players

 

[Othello*]

I guess I thought it was implied when you stated the problem was lack of mobility on D that the pair with probably the most mobile dman in the league, and a very respectable methot wasn't the problem.

As for the stats you posted, they don't seem to align with any source I can find...

Everyone on our defence is immobile except for Karlsson. Ceci/Methot have equal skating ability with a slight edge to Ceci. I wouldn't say Karlsson Is the main problem, after all he's leading the league in scoring. If I were to guess what the problem is I'd lean more towards the 2nd/4th line and second pairing which I said. I don't see how that's such an outrageous claim when we all now they're not working. Yes, Karlsson & Methot have not been playing to their potential but at least EK proven commodity.

I got the stats from war on ice or Hkref, if it's wrong feel free to correct them.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Honestly most of the team looks out of shape compared to the competition. Not rotating players in and out during back to backs is also unbelievable in my opinion.

Cameron has gotten away from what made him a good coach last year.

Agreed. Why in the world do we have so many "slow starters" on this team? What exactly are these conditioning coaches and trainers telling these guys to do in the summer? We can't afford to continually have slow starts year after year.

One thing I notice is this team has been one of the worst for several years with using sticks to slow down guys, instead of players moving their feet and using their body. So many lazy hooks and holds all over the ice. I think it has to be conditioning...we don't move our feet enough.

I agree with what Aragorn was trying to convey.
The Sens are filled with 'skilled players' and are very short on grinders with enough skill and speed to be part of the top three lines.

There is no one who's job it is to create havok in front of the opposition net or to crush the opposition D into the boards so hard they cough up the puck the next time just to keep from being hit again.

We also tend to make far too many 'cute' passes in the O-zone instead of driving the net and crashing/pouncing on the rebounds.

I think a lot of this is between the ears. Guys have some success, and they stop being physical and try to act like dipsy doodle kings the following season. We have guys who can be physical - Zibby, Mac, Ryan, Stone, Boro, Ceci, Methot, Neil, Smith, etc...

For some reason, we have a really hard time playing 'meat and potatoes' hockey. Strong fundamentals, playing hard, playing physical, playing clean.

 

[Micklebot]

Everyone on our defence is immobile except for Karlsson. Ceci/Methot have equal skating ability with a slight edge to Ceci. I wouldn't say Karlsson Is the main problem, after all he's leading the league in scoring. If I were to guess what the problem is I'd lean more towards the 2nd/4th line and second pairing which I said. I don't see how that's such an outrageous claim when we all now they're not working. Yes, Karlsson & Methot have not been playing to their potential but at least EK proven commodity.

As I said, Karlsson and Methot are struggling while on the ice with the Turris line. Seems like personnel isn't so much the problem (as you said, proven commodity after all) but rather a systemic thing. Most likely partly due to new coaching (Tourigny has his influence, and Cameron likely is trying to implement new stuff that he didn't want to mid season) and partially due to the schedule (we'll have twice played 3 games in 4 days once the Nashville game is played); my guess is fatigue is a part of it.

I got the stats from war on ice or Hkref, if it's wrong feel free to correct them.

Hockey reference has different stats than you quoted; They have Ryan has at 40%, not 31% CF, Zibanejad at 41.7% not 32% CF and golden boy Michalek at 37% not 34% CF; War on ice has Ryan 38.64, Zibanejad at 38.28, and Michalek at 36.73.

Still not great numbers, but not as bad as you've posted. Problem is, 5 games is about 1 quarter of the sample needed to really get any value out of the numbers.

The funny part though, is even if you want to believe in a 5 game sample of Corsi, you'd have Ceci and Wiercioch as our top defenders based on that metric. Point is, the error margin at this point is huge rendering that stat virtually valueless.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I would suggest the top line and top defensive pairing struggle a bit on the ice for a simpler reason...there are 4 guys on the ice at the same time who are at their best when they have the puck on their stick, and want the puck on their stick.

4 strong puck possession guys, 1 puck...bad mojo. That's kinda why I'd like to see the top line changed up a bit, so we can spread around our top puck movers onto 2 lines instead of one.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Fix our immobile/bad defensive core and scratch Neil and Smith

Yup swapping out a couple of 4th liners will fix the problem.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

Well, the two are linked, aren't they? Coaches decide who gets the ice time. The coaches have decided to sit a puck-moving defenseman and go with slow-moving guys instead.

Last year, injuries changed the dynamics of the problem; we didn't make a trade to change the roster. That means we could have had the successful roster all along, but the coaches and management chose not to.

I don't think they're linked because we've had multiple coaches but still have the same apparent fundamental problem. That's why I side with it being a roster problem.

 

[PeterSidorkiewicz]

That's what happens when you have too much skill on a team, they play mostly on the perimeter waiting for the perfect pass. They don't hit, they don't win board battles & they don't muck after the puck, it's all stick work trying to steal the puck with your stick & only Stone seems to be great at it. Pitt not only out hit Ottawa they hit them hard with no response, comme d'habitude.

I think BM is right they do need another top 6 forward although I like Michalek with Turris & Stone & Hoffman with Zibanejad & Ryan. Prince with Lazar & Pageau seems very small & it will be interesting to see what they are able to accomplish, if anything. If BM does go after a forward I hope it is somebody with some jam like a Wayne Simmons or Milan Lucic.

I love ya Aragorn but I'm going to disagree. I just think nowadays you load up on as much skill as you can possibly afford and then fill the rest with two way guys and warriors. It's really a delicate mix though and finding the mix of a championship roster isn't easy.