Player Discussion Shea Weber: Oh Captain, My Captain Edition

[Lshap]

How about the results on the ice? He hasn't been bad at all but under his leadership the team hasn't accomplished anything. I also acknowledge that he isn't the GM and can't be held responsible for a badly built team , however it's hard to say if the trade was really a win. We haven't seen many young D flourish under his development (was hoping to see Sergachev being mentored but we know how that ended) and the contract is less likely to get better as he ages.

The Habs have accomplished less under Claude Julien than they did with Michel Therrien. It doesn't make Therrien a better coach.

The only way to argue Subban's been better than Weber is to not directly compare Subban to Weber. Having their teams stand in for the players is a neat bit of misdirection, but it avoids focusing on the two players involved. Objectively, statistically, and yes, intangibly, Weber has been the better player. But, to be fair, Bergevin probably could've gotten a younger core player who could've fit our needs for longer. So yeah, Bergevin didn't max out Subban's trade value.

Which makes it a good trade instead of a great trade.

 

[Kriss E]

To my original point it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Being a good captain or leader doesn't ensure your team is instantly good. This isn't a sports movie where the captain pulls a speech out of his ass and they suddenly become an all-star team.

Babcock merely complimented Weber and did it in an obviously exaggerated fashion.

The fact people are so concerned about this is ridiculous.

It's like someone unrelated to the habs saying Romanov is faster than the speed of light and then we're here arguing that he hasn't even hit Mach 1 yet.

Like seriously, it's pointless.

Babcock made a complimentary comment and leadership doesn't magically win you a championship. Good teams win championships, leadership is just one part of the puzzle. Not Weber's fault or anything like that.

Price is an excellent leader, we haven't won.
Pacioretty and Gionta were captains before, we didn't win.

etc...

Nobody is concerned about it. It has to do with the discussions people were having at the time of the trade where Weber's leadership was glorified. It was as if we were getting this mythical being of mountainesque leadership and skills.
Others were mocking these posters with the gross exaggerations.

It wasn't just a mere compliment, it was way over the top, and the root of the discussion was whether or not Weber filled a void compared to PK. Some posters used these quotes and exaggerations to argue he was, obviously he wasn't and it was, at the very best, a lateral move. In no way shape or form did moving Subban out and putting Weber in actually improved our team, and with more pieces falling out, we actually worsened.

People still like to poke fun at this alleged master level of leadership.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Nobody is concerned about it. It has to do with the discussions people were having at the time of the trade where Weber's leadership was glorified. It was as if we were getting this mythical being of mountainesque leadership and skills.
Others were mocking these posters with the gross exaggerations.

It wasn't just a mere compliment, it was way over the top, and the root of the discussion was whether or not Weber filled a void compared to PK. Some posters used these quotes and exaggerations to argue he was, obviously he wasn't and it was, at the very best, a lateral move. In no way shape or form did moving Subban out and putting Weber in actually improved our team, and with more pieces falling out, we actually worsened.

People still like to poke fun at this alleged master level of leadership.

He is a better leader and now a better player. I agree in the big scheme of things it didn't change much, we still sucked. I'd rather have Weber with value than Subban at 9 million right now though.

That said, if we're done with Babock's comment(a guy not even affiliated with the habs) we can move on to the next order of business. Is Santa Claus real?

Jokes aside. Who really cares what Babcock said or if some posters were excited.

Some people were excited about Sekac. Who literally cares? It's the past.

 

[Miller Time]

I like the line from the book's intro: "The only redeeming quality of this line of debate is that the more rounds you buy, the sharper your analysis seems to become."

I still maintain there's no way to measure a captain's concrete performance impact. Yeah, of course we can see his team's final results, but how much of that was due to the captain's personal leadership? Impossible to say. Are Toews and Crosby automatically the best leaders because their teams won the most Cups? Maybe they are, but maybe captains like Giroux, Thornton, Getzlaf*, and Weber had just as big an impact, except their teams weren't quite as good (*Getzlaf wasn't the captain when the Ducks won the Cup). And what does it say about Tavares' leadership that the NYI have improved and the Leafs have actually regressed?

I'll grant you it's an interesting debate and, honestly, I probably would rank Toews and Crosby as the best leaders. Maybe Chara next. But after them... Weber looks to be as good a candidate as any for #4.

i agree, it's at best an interesting debate... no way to firmly quantify it. What i like about his analysis, is that he looked at situations of sustained excellence/success, and then found some parallels in traits that, while expressed very differently personality and performance-wise, shared enough similarities to offer a somewhat compelling correlation.

As for the current NHL... i don't know that there's much in the way of a ranking possible that would be anything more than subjective appreciation... from a results POV..., Brown, Chara, Toews, Crosby sit as the captains who have won multiple times, and then guys like Keith, Doughty, Kopitar, Bergeron clearly played big leadership roles on teams that had multiple years of success.

I don't think Weber enters into the conversation at all, frankly. There's nothing beyond hype to distinguish him from a Marleau or Thornton or Suter or Giordano or... or... or any other leading player on a team that has worn a C or been viewed by teammates and coaches as a calming presence/reliable locker room and on-ice character.

guys like ROR, Pietrangelo, Carlson, Ovechkin, Stamkos, et. et. have at least a cup to go with the "role model" and "character" elements.

 

[Miller Time]

He is a better leader and now a better player. I agree in the big scheme of things it didn't change much, we still sucked. I'd rather have Weber with value than Subban at 9 million right now though.

That said, if we're done with Babock's comment(a guy not even affiliated with the habs) we can move on to the next order of business. Is Santa Claus real?

Jokes aside. Who really cares what Babcock said or if some posters were excited.

Some people were excited about Sekac. Who literally cares? It's the past.

that goes without saying...
just like a year after the trade, PK seemed like the clearly better asset to have...

in 1-2 seasons, who knows which guy will be more useful "right now", that's the ever evolving beauty of hindsight

 

[Kriss E]

He is a better leader and now a better player. I agree in the big scheme of things it didn't change much, we still sucked. I'd rather have Weber with value than Subban at 9 million right now though.

That said, if we're done with Babock's comment(a guy not even affiliated with the habs) we can move on to the next order of business. Is Santa Claus real?

Jokes aside. Who really cares what Babcock said or if some posters were excited.

Some people were excited about Sekac. Who literally cares? It's the past.

Ya sure, my point was simply to show posters didnt invent these quotes. They were said, word for word.

But yes, I think everyone agrees, today, we all pick Weber over Subban.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

every team in the league has a captain... that doesn't mean the comparative leadership impact of each one is the same.

Agreed but lets not forget that in a group of superstars and leaders in team canada Weber was given an A.

Many people think highly of him, including players.

 

[Kriss E]

Agreed but lets not forget that in a group of superstars and leaders in team canada Weber was given an A.

Many people think highly of him, including players.

His coach kinda had a hard on for him though..A certain Babcock?...Shall I bring out the quotes again? :p

 

[DAChampion]

Apparently Weber's nickname in the locker room is "dad".

 

[jaffy27]

His coach kinda had a hard on for him though..A certain Babcock?...Shall I bring out the quotes again? :p

What Players Think of the Man Mountain - J.D. Lagrange - From The Heart

Do yourself a favour and read beyond Babcock.....facts are facts.....he’s always had a letter and players respect him......like real NHL players, not HF heroes who believe they are more knowledgeable than the people involved.

I know it’s difficult to believe this (people in general), especially for Subban HF Pom Pom Shakers.

 

[jaffy27]

Ya sure, my point was simply to show posters didnt invent these quotes. They were said, word for word.

But yes, I think everyone agrees, today, we all pick Weber over Subban.

Not everyone.....I’m sure there are die hards out there, this I’m convinced

 

[FormerLurker]

i agree, it's at best an interesting debate... no way to firmly quantify it. What i like about his analysis, is that he looked at situations of sustained excellence/success, and then found some parallels in traits that, while expressed very differently personality and performance-wise, shared enough similarities to offer a somewhat compelling correlation.

As for the current NHL... i don't know that there's much in the way of a ranking possible that would be anything more than subjective appreciation... from a results POV..., Brown, Chara, Toews, Crosby sit as the captains who have won multiple times, and then guys like Keith, Doughty, Kopitar, Bergeron clearly played big leadership roles on teams that had multiple years of success.

I don't think Weber enters into the conversation at all, frankly. There's nothing beyond hype to distinguish him from a Marleau or Thornton or Suter or Giordano or... or... or any other leading player on a team that has worn a C or been viewed by teammates and coaches as a calming presence/reliable locker room and on-ice character.

guys like ROR, Pietrangelo, Carlson, Ovechkin, Stamkos, et. et. have at least a cup to go with the "role model" and "character" elements.

Sounds like you're saying leadership can only be measured in cup wins. So Ray Bourque was only a "hype" leader until he won on Colorado. Ovechkin was a hype leader for most of his career, then he won, and became a real leader. Same with ROR.

Sorry man but that analysis is overly superficial and simplistic.

 

[Kriss E]

What Players Think of the Man Mountain - J.D. Lagrange - From The Heart

Do yourself a favour and read beyond Babcock.....facts are facts.....he’s always had a letter and players respect him......like real NHL players, not HF heroes who believe they are more knowledgeable than the people involved.

I know it’s difficult to believe this (people in general), especially for Subban HF Pom Pom Shakers.

You have this weird obsession with Subban dude. My comment was a tongue-in-cheek one referring to the previous discussion I had with LL.

I've had multiple discussions over the years here how I think leadership is so overrated in the NHL.
You could probably give a letter to half of your team.

 

[Kriss E]

Not everyone.....I’m sure there are die hards out there, this I’m convinced

Outliers aren't worth mentioning. You can always find a few of those.

 

[Kriss E]

Sounds like you're saying leadership can only be measured in cup wins. So Ray Bourque was only a "hype" leader until he won on Colorado. Ovechkin was a hype leader for most of his career, then he won, and became a real leader. Same with ROR.

Sorry man but that analysis is overly superficial and simplistic.

Except that wasn't his analysis at all. He said there's nothing to show how Weber is a better leader than the guys like Thornton, Giordano, Marleau, etc. Those good vets who all have leadership traits but never won a cup. How do you quantify Weber's leadership compared to his peers.

Can we point to an event where the team he was on completely surprised? A clearly unmatched team who accomplished some form of greatness at the NHL level?
Is he the first one at the rink? Last one out? Practices even harder than he plays? Takes the kids under his wings?..etc....All of this we don't actually see or know. I assume he must be doing all of this given his incredible reputation.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

His coach kinda had a hard on for him though..A certain Babcock?...Shall I bring out the quotes again? :p

Was just a compliment.

besides, you can like someone and they’d be good too.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

You have this weird obsession with Subban dude. My comment was a tongue-in-cheek one referring to the previous discussion I had with LL.

I've had multiple discussions over the years here how I think leadership is so overrated in the NHL.
You could probably give a letter to half of your team.

Leadership isn’t overrated. The idea that the captain is only leader is.

Most teams have a bunch of leaders who contribute. A team of professionals pulling on same rope goes a long way.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

sometimes i forget this guy is even on the team

 

[ZUKI]

I don't care what he did in NHS, I'm no Preds fan.

he's an amazing leader, yet no one can provide a single evidence of his amazing leadership since joining the Habs...


come on now, should not be that hard.

deleted

 

[LyricalLyricist]

sometimes i forget this guy is even on the team

That’s concerning and not for Weber.

 

[Kimota]

Except that wasn't his analysis at all. He said there's nothing to show how Weber is a better leader than the guys like Thornton, Giordano, Marleau, etc. Those good vets who all have leadership traits but never won a cup. How do you quantify Weber's leadership compared to his peers.

Can we point to an event where the team he was on completely surprised? A clearly unmatched team who accomplished some form of greatness at the NHL level?
Is he the first one at the rink? Last one out? Practices even harder than he plays? Takes the kids under his wings?..etc....All of this we don't actually see or know. I assume he must be doing all of this given his incredible reputation.

Well for many years Nashville had teams poor on offense and they overachieved against far more skilled teams. It may be for many factors, Trotz's system, etc...but I'm betting Shae was a big part of that.

 

[OldCraig71]

Apparently Weber's nickname in the locker room is "dad".

What is Drouin's nickname in da room? Joffrey perhaps?

 

[jaffy27]

You have this weird obsession with Subban dude. My comment was a tongue-in-cheek one referring to the previous discussion I had with LL.

I've had multiple discussions over the years here how I think leadership is so overrated in the NHL.
You could probably give a letter to half of your team.

At that point I had moved on to “people in general “ as I had put in brackets (....) for you

 

[jaffy27]

Leadership isn’t overrated. The idea that the captain is only leader is.

Most teams have a bunch of leaders who contribute. A team of professionals pulling on same rope goes a long way.

Yup....the one man show takes one leader concept works great in singles tennis......

But a player like Weber can certainly lead the way with a bunch of committed players that are willing to hike single file in his lead.

I like the make up of our team this year and expect a serious run or at least a menacing presence.

 

[jaffy27]

You have this weird obsession with Subban dude. My comment was a tongue-in-cheek one referring to the previous discussion I had with LL.

I've had multiple discussions over the years here how I think leadership is so overrated in the NHL.
You could probably give a letter to half of your team.

Best to ask the people in the NHL the importance of leadership as none of us can really quantify the importance of it as we have no experience in this type of environment.

And no, it is my belief that there are maybe 3-4 players max that can wear that C.

Weber
Price
Gallagher

actually it’s 3 in my estimation.

These are about the only players “all” players will look up to and listen when they talk.

Chiarot, Petry, Edmundson, Suzuki, Toffoli can all lead in their own little way but to command the presence of everyone in that room.....hmmm....I think that distinction belongs to 3 players only.