Player Discussion Shea Weber: Oh Captain, My Captain Edition

[tazsub3]

June 22, 2016

so in 2016 he was a leader but in 2018 he lost all leadership to age hahahah, thanks for the laugh

 

[Big Empty]

what's the argument here? weber isn't a good captain? have you listened to the entire league talk about how good a leader he is and how all young defensemen look up to him? weber is a great captain and i'm super happy that he's leading the habs.

 

[ECWHSWI]

so in 2016 he was a leader but in 2018 he lost all leadership to age hahahah, thanks for the laugh

nope, the other poster shown me the light, he has a C on his jersey he's automatically an amazing C, just like Pacioretty was.

 

[ECWHSWI]

what's the argument here? weber isn't a good captain? have you listened to the entire league talk about how good a leader he is and how all young defensemen look up to him? weber is a great captain and i'm super happy that he's leading the habs.

the argument is Weber is a n amazing captain because other people say he's an amazing captain.

the main arguments being
1. had an award years ago
2. has a C on his jersey
3. he was asked to talk about covid stuff.

 

[ECWHSWI]

so in 2016 he was a leader but in 2018 he lost all leadership to age hahahah, thanks for the laugh

you tried.

 

[Big Empty]

the argument is Weber is a n amazing captain because other people say he's an amazing captain.

the main arguments being
1. had an award years ago
2. has a C on his jersey
3. he was asked to talk about covid stuff.

if you don’t think shea weber is a great captain, nothing i say will change your mind and i’m not going to argue with you further. i’ve read the past few pages of this thread and i know how that goes.

 

[ECWHSWI]

if you don’t think shea weber is a great captain, nothing i say will change your mind and i’m not going to argue with you further. i’ve read the past few pages of this thread and i know how that goes.

at least you're not saying that I think he's a bad one or something!

 

[Kimota]

Likable?
Yup.
Role model?
Yup.
Effective leader?
If making those around him better is a key component, results don't really support that.

Well you can be a fourth liner and be a good leader, it's not always about producing.

I see Shea as a calming presence in a team and role model for others to follow on how he conduct himself and someone who stick up for his teamates. A guy that can hit and produce and setting the stage for others to mimick him on the ice. This has all the elements of what a leader is. Someone that inspire others to follow him. How many people can even say that for any other captains in this league?

"Making others better" on the ice can be a pretty iffy thing.

feel free to awnser the question if you want.

Hey I want to know why you don't feel that he's a good leader. Cause to me all the elements are there.

 

[Miller Time]

Well you can be a fourth liner and be a good leader, it's not always about producing.

I see Shea as a calming presence in a team and role model for others to follow on how he conduct himself and someone who stick up for his teamates. A guy that can hit and produce and setting the stage for others to mimick him on the ice. This has all the elements of what a leader is. Someone that inspire others to follow him. How many people can even say that for any other captains in this league?

"Making others better" on the ice can be a pretty iffy thing.

Iffy indeed... As with the entire description you provided.

That's the thing with a subjective concept like "leadership", it can mean/apply to a wide variety of things depending entirely on individual interpretation.

You mention "Inspire others to follow him... Where exactly has our team "followed him" other than 3 straight lottery picking regular seasons?

I fully agree that leadership can come from every level... That sticking up for teammates is a great sign of leadership, as with role modelling positive behaviors. I wouldn't agree that Weber distinguishes himself much from a number of guys in the organization by those qualifiers. MB's PR push has highlighted that narrative and Weber fits the persona that the dominant ideology of hockey culture celebrates... I just don't see any results, on ice, that show a noticeable impact of this supposed stellar "leadership".

 

[ECWHSWI]

Well you can be a fourth liner and be a good leader, it's not always about producing.

I see Shea as a calming presence in a team and role model for others to follow on how he conduct himself and someone who stick up for his teamates. A guy that can hit and produce and setting the stage for others to mimick him on the ice. This has all the elements of what a leader is. Someone that inspire others to follow him. How many people can even say that for any other captains in this league?

"Making others better" on the ice can be a pretty iffy thing.



Hey I want to know why you don't feel that he's a good leader. Cause to me all the elements are there.

Just to be clear, I dont think hes BAD, i just dont see the greatness in his leadership. Most of his said greatness comes from stupid quotes ala Babcock. Helping trough charity or being involved in comunity is done by most nhlers, they stay quiet about that is all. On the ice ? I dont see it.

Edit; stupid autocorrect

 

[Kimota]

Iffy indeed... As with the entire description you provided.

That's the thing with a subjective concept like "leadership", it can mean/apply to a wide variety of things depending entirely on individual interpretation.

You mention "Inspire others to follow him... Where exactly has our team "followed him" other than 3 straight lottery picking regular seasons?

I fully agree that leadership can come from every level... That sticking up for teammates is a great sign of leadership, as with role modelling positive behaviors. I wouldn't agree that Weber distinguishes himself much from a number of guys in the organization by those qualifiers. MB's PR push has highlighted that narrative and Weber fits the persona that the dominant ideology of hockey culture celebrates... I just don't see any results, on ice, that show a noticeable impact of this supposed stellar "leadership".

Just to be clear, I dont think j'espère BAD, i just dont see the greatness in his leadership. Most of his said greatness comes from stupid quotes ala Babcock. Living tout charité or being involved in comunity is donne bustier most nhlers, they stay quiet about that is all. On the ice ? I dont see it.

Not saying he's a great leader but he's a good one. He touches all the boxes: Plays tons of minutes, plays against the best lines, gets a good numbers of points, he's strong and a good skater, deliver good hits. He's not dirty. And a good representative outside the ice. If there was a way to describe him is a calming presence. And it's important on a team to have a guy like that. Esp. during stressful moments. Whether the press going crazy over something or on the ice when things go south he can calm things down.

Like I said, he's not a Messier-type to take his team by the balls and by shear will motivate them to take the next step. But he is a good leader in his own way.

The rest is up to current and former teamates if they feel if he's good or not. We have heard nothing but good things thus far. I'm betting there are a few things that he does that have impressed them? Maybe I'm wrong but I would think they feel like he's a good leader.

 

[Miller Time]

Not saying he's a great leader but he's a good one. He touches all the boxes: Plays tons of minutes, plays against the best lines, gets a good numbers of points, he's strong and a good skater, deliver good hits. He's not dirty. And a good representative outside the ice. If there was a way to describe him is a calming presence. And it's important on a team to have a guy like that. Esp. during stressful moments. Whether the press going crazy over something or on the ice when things go south he can calm things down.

Like I said, he's not a Messier-type to take his team by the balls and by shear will motivate them to take the next step. But he is a good leader in his own way.

The rest is up to current and former teamates if they feel if he's good or not. We have heard nothing but good things thus far. I'm betting there are a few things that he does that have impressed them? Maybe I'm wrong but I would think they feel like he's a good leader.

Zetterberg might disagree, as well as a few other guys over the years lol...

but as for the rest... yeah, don't disagree. A nice guy with a calming demeanor and a very diligent professional with a high work ethic.

I think that applies to a lot of athletes, frankly. Making the qualifier of "good" a bit nebulous.

The contrasts to Messier is an interesting one if only because that's the "type" of leadership hype Weber seems to have, even though, as you point out, he's clearly not in that class of leadership impact.

 

[Lshap]

How are we supposed to 'see' leadership? We're not in the locker room, or at practice, or on the bench. We can't hear, see or measure leadership when it's taking place. We also can't measure its impact on a team. How many points did Weber's leadership add to the Habs? How does that compare with other team captains' leadership points? Impossible for us to know.

All we DO know is that leadership has value (even if it's invisible to us) and that -- according to multiple players, coaches, and GMs -- Weber is among the league's most respected leaders. That's secondhand evidence, but it's all we've got. Unless any of you guys have more concrete info, I'm willing to take the word of the people who work alongside him.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I'm sure he's not void of leadership but can we all agree it was way over stated...''just one look from him and you instantly play better''...

If people took jokes/meme type material seriously then I assure you, the problem isn't with Weber...

Stuff like that is akin to the age old question if Gorges was really a captain in the WHL.

Of course there is no proof Weber can look at you and instantly make you play better just like there's no real evidence Gorges was a captain.

 

[Kriss E]

If people took jokes/meme type material seriously then I assure you, the problem isn't with Weber...

Stuff like that is akin to the age old question if Gorges was really a captain in the WHL.

Of course there is no proof Weber can look at you and instantly make you play better just like there's no real evidence Gorges was a captain.

It wasn't a joke or a meme, it came straight from Babcock's mouth:
“Physically, (Weber is a) man-mountain,” Babcock said of the Canadiens defenceman. “He’s as good a human being as I’ve ever been around. He doesn’t have to say much. He just has to look at you and you snap into shape. He cuts a big swath out there. He shoots it so hard, no one wants to stand in his way.
“What I like about him best, when he walks in the dressing room, you know it’s business. He’s a cultured type person. He makes your franchise better when he walks in the door.”
Mike Babcock singing praises of defenceman Shea Weber

People would use this as an argument for his supreme leadership.

I don't know what you're talking about regarding Gorges really being a captain.
From the Kelowna Rockets website:

2003-2004
Rockets Captains – Kelowna Rockets

 

[LyricalLyricist]

It wasn't a joke or a meme, it came straight from Babcock's mouth:
“Physically, (Weber is a) man-mountain,” Babcock said of the Canadiens defenceman. “He’s as good a human being as I’ve ever been around. He doesn’t have to say much. He just has to look at you and you snap into shape. He cuts a big swath out there. He shoots it so hard, no one wants to stand in his way.
“What I like about him best, when he walks in the dressing room, you know it’s business. He’s a cultured type person. He makes your franchise better when he walks in the door.”
Mike Babcock singing praises of defenceman Shea Weber

People would use this as an argument for his supreme leadership.

I don't know what you're talking about regarding Gorges really being a captain.
From the Kelowna Rockets website:

2003-2004
Rockets Captains – Kelowna Rockets

I'm aware of what Babcock said, it doesn't make it something our organization sold nor does it make it any more than a joke. This was never an actual selling point, that he has magic powers.

As for the picture, I'm disappointed their website got hacked and someone photoshopped this.

 

[Miller Time]

How are we supposed to 'see' leadership? We're not in the locker room, or at practice, or on the bench. We can't hear, see or measure leadership when it's taking place. We also can't measure its impact on a team. How many points did Weber's leadership add to the Habs? How does that compare with other team captains' leadership points? Impossible for us to know.

All we DO know is that leadership has value (even if it's invisible to us) and that -- according to multiple players, coaches, and GMs -- Weber is among the league's most respected leaders. That's secondhand evidence, but it's all we've got. Unless any of you guys have more concrete info, I'm willing to take the word of the people who work alongside him.

The Captain Class by Sam Walker: 9780812987072 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

that's an interesting take from a WSJ editor who basically looked to specific examples of very clearly defined sporting excellence and distilled the similarities in leadership influence between them.

What Weber's reputed leadership lacks, is the concrete performance impact. His career-long failure to be a part of teams with post-season success through his long career isn't a great validator... Yes, team sports success aren't about 1 individual, but as that book highlights, what each of those 17 case studies in sporting excellence had was a leader (often, if not mostly, NOT the best athlete/"player" on the team) that significantly impacted the excellence of the group...

Weber was on a Nashville team that had 5 100+ point seasons (and multiple 90+ pt seasons), yet never made it passed the 2nd round... 1 year after he left, with the same core (swapping him for PK), the team gets to the finals...


So yes, there's a lot of talk about his "leadership"... there just isn't a lot of results that suggest he leads in a way that elevates or impacts his teams in ways that the best leaders do.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm aware of what Babcock said, it doesn't make it something our organization sold nor does it make it any more than a joke. This was never an actual selling point, that he has magic powers.

As for the picture, I'm disappointed their website got hacked and someone photoshopped this.

Again, it wasn't a joke or a meme, nobody said it came from Bergevin's mouth either. I said posters here used it as an argument to glorify his leadership skills.
And others used it to mock the argument after seeing how nothing changed and we missed the POs 3/4.

 

[Redux91]

Too funny this thread, I cannot get over it lol

Guys a Captain 9 (should be 11 really)out of his 15 years in the League for TWO franchises but people question his Leadership because he doesnt score 60+ points a year.. (forget the fact he consistently scores 15 goals as a D every single year), just wow lol

Next theyll be telling us Karlsson is a better "Leader" because he was putting up better points, like just...what?.., if people cant understand what leadership actually means and they have their own magical versions of it and what it means in their heads or how they went about understanding life, then theres really nothing to do, thats that and thats who they are, no point trying to change peoples minds, youd have to change their entire way they lived through and understand life lol.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Again, it wasn't a joke or a meme, nobody said it came from Bergevin's mouth either. I said posters here used it as an argument to glorify his leadership skills.
And others used it to mock the argument after seeing how nothing changed and we missed the POs 3/4.

To my original point it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Being a good captain or leader doesn't ensure your team is instantly good. This isn't a sports movie where the captain pulls a speech out of his ass and they suddenly become an all-star team.

Babcock merely complimented Weber and did it in an obviously exaggerated fashion.

The fact people are so concerned about this is ridiculous.

It's like someone unrelated to the habs saying Romanov is faster than the speed of light and then we're here arguing that he hasn't even hit Mach 1 yet.

Like seriously, it's pointless.

Babcock made a complimentary comment and leadership doesn't magically win you a championship. Good teams win championships, leadership is just one part of the puzzle. Not Weber's fault or anything like that.

Price is an excellent leader, we haven't won.
Pacioretty and Gionta were captains before, we didn't win.

etc...

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Too funny this thread, I cannot get over it lol

Guys a Captain 9 (should be 11 really)out of his 15 years in the League for TWO franchises but people question his Leadership because he doesnt score 60+ points a year.. (forget the fact he consistently scores 15 goals as a D every single year), just wow lol

Next theyll be telling us Karlsson is a better "Leader" because he was putting up better points, like just...what?.., if people cant understand what leadership actually means and they have their own magical versions of it and what it means in their heads or how they went about understanding life, then theres really nothing to do, thats that and thats who they are, no point trying to change peoples minds, youd have to change their entire way they lived through and understand life lol.

People are in too deep with disliking Weber or the trade that brought him here.

 

[Miller Time]

People are in too deep with disliking Weber or the trade that brought him here.

interesting take.. scrolling up, i can't seem to find any evidence of anyone "disliking" Weber...

 

[Miller Time]

To my original point it wasn't meant to be taken literally.

Being a good captain or leader doesn't ensure your team is instantly good. This isn't a sports movie where the captain pulls a speech out of his ass and they suddenly become an all-star team.

Babcock merely complimented Weber and did it in an obviously exaggerated fashion.

The fact people are so concerned about this is ridiculous.

It's like someone unrelated to the habs saying Romanov is faster than the speed of light and then we're here arguing that he hasn't even hit Mach 1 yet.

Like seriously, it's pointless.

Babcock made a complimentary comment and leadership doesn't magically win you a championship. Good teams win championships, leadership is just one part of the puzzle. Not Weber's fault or anything like that.

Price is an excellent leader, we haven't won.
Pacioretty and Gionta were captains before, we didn't win.

etc...

every team in the league has a captain... that doesn't mean the comparative leadership impact of each one is the same.

 

[Lshap]

The Captain Class by Sam Walker: 9780812987072 | PenguinRandomHouse.com: Books

that's an interesting take from a WSJ editor who basically looked to specific examples of very clearly defined sporting excellence and distilled the similarities in leadership influence between them.

What Weber's reputed leadership lacks, is the concrete performance impact. His career-long failure to be a part of teams with post-season success through his long career isn't a great validator... Yes, team sports success aren't about 1 individual, but as that book highlights, what each of those 17 case studies in sporting excellence had was a leader (often, if not mostly, NOT the best athlete/"player" on the team) that significantly impacted the excellence of the group...

Weber was on a Nashville team that had 5 100+ point seasons (and multiple 90+ pt seasons), yet never made it passed the 2nd round... 1 year after he left, with the same core (swapping him for PK), the team gets to the finals...


So yes, there's a lot of talk about his "leadership"... there just isn't a lot of results that suggest he leads in a way that elevates or impacts his teams in ways that the best leaders do.

I like the line from the book's intro: "The only redeeming quality of this line of debate is that the more rounds you buy, the sharper your analysis seems to become."

I still maintain there's no way to measure a captain's concrete performance impact. Yeah, of course we can see his team's final results, but how much of that was due to the captain's personal leadership? Impossible to say. Are Toews and Crosby automatically the best leaders because their teams won the most Cups? Maybe they are, but maybe captains like Giroux, Thornton, Getzlaf*, and Weber had just as big an impact, except their teams weren't quite as good (*Getzlaf wasn't the captain when the Ducks won the Cup). And what does it say about Tavares' leadership that the NYI have improved and the Leafs have actually regressed?

I'll grant you it's an interesting debate and, honestly, I probably would rank Toews and Crosby as the best leaders. Maybe Chara next. But after them... Weber looks to be as good a candidate as any for #4.

 

[CauZuki]

How are we supposed to 'see' leadership? We're not in the locker room, or at practice, or on the bench. We can't hear, see or measure leadership when it's taking place. We also can't measure its impact on a team. How many points did Weber's leadership add to the Habs? How does that compare with other team captains' leadership points? Impossible for us to know.

All we DO know is that leadership has value (even if it's invisible to us) and that -- according to multiple players, coaches, and GMs -- Weber is among the league's most respected leaders. That's secondhand evidence, but it's all we've got. Unless any of you guys have more concrete info, I'm willing to take the word of the people who work alongside him.

How about the results on the ice? He hasn't been bad at all but under his leadership the team hasn't accomplished anything. I also acknowledge that he isn't the GM and can't be held responsible for a badly built team , however it's hard to say if the trade was really a win. We haven't seen many young D flourish under his development (was hoping to see Sergachev being mentored but we know how that ended) and the contract is less likely to get better as he ages. It just seems that acquiring him would have been great if the team was competing or had a major leadership issue (and not a talent issue). The only trade that really has a clear impact on our future so far has been the Pacioretty trade which brought in Tatar/Suzuki/Norlinder. (with me hoping we trade Tatar this year for a prospect or a young player that fits a need)