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[Curufinwe]

Tbf to Kimmo he was a fantastic offensive player at junior levels (u18, u20) and then was one of the best ~5-6 offensive defensemen in Liiga by the time he was 20-21 years old.

And then in his 2nd NHL season he paced for 53 points in the middle of the dead puck era on an expansion team. He was 24 at that point.

He learned quickly, lol.

 

[Striiker]

What a load of nonsense.

How many junior players are drafted, expected to become better defensively? Lots.

How many players are drafted with poor offense and become scorers? Very very few.

Look at Sanheim and Morin as an example.

 

[FLYguy3911]

Stop you are embarrassing yourself. Timonen was always good offensively. You don't learn offense. You either have the ability and vision to make plays or you don't. History has proven though that guys with offensive skills and defensive question marks at an early age can and often do overcome those defensive deficiencies, because playing defense in this era is more than just what guy can put another guy in the 3rd row. It's about retrieving the puck, moving the puck, and transitioning up the ice. In fact, depending on who you want to believe, results in the defensive zone are quite volatile year to year for each individual player.

Look at the best top 4 in the league, Nashville. 3 of the 4 are/were dinged because of their style of play that leaned heavily towards the offensive end of the rink (not sure what the scouting report on Ekholm was as an 18 year old, but he went undrafted so I'd guess there were some questions). I'd say they developed their defensive games quite alright.

 

[Rebels57]

Another topic that should just be common sense argued ad nauseum on HF Boards/Flyers

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

They were saying on the broadcast recently Ekholm was more advanced offensively in younger years than defensively. He didn't really start rounding out his game until he came over & was more so being groomed for a defensive role given all the offensive talent on that blue line.

 

[Appleyard]

What a load of nonsense.

How many junior players are drafted, expected to become better defensively? Lots.

How many players are drafted with poor offense and become scorers? Very very few.

Look at Sanheim and Morin as an example.

Of CHL forwards drafted since the lockout the list is pretty much:

Wayne Simmonds
Milan Lucic
James Neal
Mark Stone

Score under 0.9 PPG in your draft year and it is very unlikely you ever become a 40+ point player consistently.

378 forwards out of the CHL have been taken since lockout with under 0.90 PPG in year drafted. 4 have became legit top 6 forwards. And only guys who look like becoming from the younger guys are Dvorak and Brown.

Not Dmen ofc - but shows how hard it is to trend upwards offensively if 'limited' even at ~17-18 years old.

 

[Striiker]

Of CHL forwards drafted since the lockout the list is pretty much:

Wayne Simmonds
Milan Lucic
James Neal
Mark Stone

Score under 0.9 PPG in your draft year and it is very unlikely you ever become a 40+ point player consistently.

378 forwards out of the CHL have been taken since lockout with under 0.90 PPG in year drafted. 4 have became legit top 6 forwards. And only guys who look like becoming from the younger guys are Dvorak and Brown.

Not Dmen ofc - but shows how hard it is to trend upwards offensively if 'limited' even at ~17-18 years old.

Hmmmm I guess the rest of them weren't motivated or had a poor work ethic...

 

[FLYguy3911]

They were saying on the broadcast recently Ekholm was more advanced offensively in younger years than defensively. He didn't really start rounding out his game until he came over & was more so being groomed for a defensive role given all the offensive talent on that blue line.

That's what I wanted to say but wasn't 100% sure. I remember him getting some buzz as a 20 year old in the SHL. 37 points in 60 games is pretty impressive for anyone in that league, let alone a 20 year old. He doesn't take as many chances as Josi, Ellis, Subban, but when he does you can see he's pretty skilled for a big guy. Really solid player.

 

[deadhead]

I said you had to have minimum offensive skills.

Actually, Kimmo may not be a good example because he really wasn't a scoring defenseman, other than QB the PP.
ES he was pretty average:
age 26 - 4-14 17 his best season until
age 31 - 5-23 28 then in Philly
age 35 - 3-16 19
age 36 - 0-22 22

When Rako Gudas (6-16 22) is outscoring you at ES, you're not a great offensive defenseman!
And it makes Provorov's 9-16 25 look even more impressive.
20+ ES seasons by Flyer D-men:
2015-16 Ghost 64g 9-15 24
2014-15 MDZ 64g 8-15 23 Streit 81g 5-17 22
2013-14 Streit 82g 6-23 29
2011-12 Carle 82g 1-27 28 Kimmo 76g 0-22 22 Meszaros 62g 5-17 22 Coburn 82g 4-18 22
2010-11 Carle 82g 1-37 38 Meszaros 81g 5-21 26
2009-10 Pronger 82g 5-23 28 Carle 80g 4-17 21
2007-08 Coburn 78g 4-16 20
2006-07 Pitkanen 77g 3-20 23
2005-06 Pitkanen 58g 8-18 26
2002-03 Desjardins 79g 7-16 23 K Johnson 82g 5-15 20
2001-02 K Johnson 82g 6-16 22
2000-01 Desjardins 82g 8-19 27 McGillis 82g 10-16 26
1999-00 Desjardins 81g 6-25 31
1998-99 Desjardins 68g 9-17 26
1996-97 Desjardins 82g 6-22 28 Niinimaa 77g 3-17 20
1993-94 Galley 81g 4-29 33 Yushkevich 75g 4-20 24
1992-93 Galley 83g 8-25 33 Yushkevich 82g 4-26 30
1991-92 Duchesne 78g 9-26 35
1990-91 Murphy 80g 5-23 28 Samuelsson 78g 8-15 23
1989-90 Murphy 78g 10-25 25 Samuelsson 66g 5-15 20
1987-88 Howe 75g 10-22 32 Crossman 76g 3-17 20
1986-87 Howe 69g 9-21 30 Crossman 78g 2-20 22 McCrimmon 71g 5-16 21
1985-86 Howe 77g 13-41 54 McCrimmon 80g 11-29 40 Crossman 80g 4-17 21
1984-85 Howe 73g 13-27 40 McCrimmon 66g 7-23 30 Erickson 72g 5-17 22 Crossman 80g 2-20 22 Marsh 77g 2-18 20
1983-84 Howe 71g 13-24 37 Erickson 68g 9-22 31 Crossman 78g 5-21 26 Dvorak 66g 3-19 22 Cochrane 67g 7-14 21
1982-83 Howe 76g 10-27 37 Dvorak 72g 1-21 22 Wilson 62g 5-17 22 Cochrane 77g 2-20 22

 

[FLYguy3911]

Are you suggesting Provorov had 9 ES goals in a season where he scored 6 total goals? This is the second time I've seen it posted.

And if Kimmo was just a PP specialist offensively, you're telling me he became that because he was good defensively? That makes your argument even more ridiculous.

 

[Striiker]

That's some pretty damn impressive 5v5 scoring by Provorov...

 

[Appleyard]

From 1999-04 (ages 24-29) Timonen was 20th amongst NHL Dmen in PPG and averaged over 0.5 PPG.

He was pretty good offensively.

And in the DPE if you were getting ~15+ EV points/82 GP you were top ~50 in Dmen scoring.

Apart from 98-99 and 00-01 he was at 15/82 each season. 4/6 seasons.


He was always pretty good offensively.

 

[deadhead]

PP scoring should be considered separately from ES scoring.
PP is a different skill, more space on the ice, focused on offense, with specialists - so QBing a PP is a skill, but it's different from ES.

It shocked me how few Flyer defensemen consistently scored 20+ points ES, Mark Howe of course was heads and shoulders above the rest.
DesJardins, then a bunch of guys who for one reason or another never put more than a couple seasons together. Numerous years there were no defensemen with 20+ points.

It's going to be nice to see a defenseman on every pair that can carry the puck, set up teammates and present an offensive threat that opens the ice for the rest of the team.

 

[deadhead]

Are you suggesting Provorov had 9 ES goals in a season where he scored 6 total goals? This is the second time I've seen it posted.

And if Kimmo was just a PP specialist offensively, you're telling me he became that because he was good defensively? That makes your argument even more ridiculous.

Transposed the 6 and 9. So sue me.
You get what you pay for.

 

[FLYguy3911]

That's fine if you want to separate PP points from ES points, but that just makes your point that "defensively skilled players like Kimmo learn to become offensive players" baseless. Unless you truly believe that Kimmo's defensive skills helped him to become one of the best PP QB's in the NHL somehow.

But as Sean Couturier has shown us, defensive skills don't translate to PP success.

 

[deadhead]

So who are the top offensive forwards who were bad defensively who became above average NHL defenders?

Defensemen are a bit different, since few offensive defensemen are good enough to compensate for bad defense, most are under more pressure to improve their defense when they hit the NHL (and the ones that don't tend to wear out their welcome, like Carle).

 

[FLYguy3911]

So who are the top offensive forwards who were bad defensively who became above average NHL defenders?

The better question would be how many high scoring forwards are truly held back or are a net negative because they are bad defensively?

The pool of young forwards who are classified as poor defenders is significantly smaller than the pool of young defensemen that get hit with the label. For some reason people will turn a blind eye to a high scoring forward who is a liability defensively but if a highly skilled defenseman makes a few mistakes defensively, it's the end of the world. Some of it has to do with the old school people that look at a defenseman as a defenseman. People are also more apt to recognize a defensive mistake by a defenseman more so than one made by a forward. A mistake by a forward defensively can hurt just as much as one by a defenseman.

Defensemen are a bit different, since few offensive defensemen are good enough to compensate for bad defense, most are under more pressure to improve their defense when they hit the NHL (and the ones that don't tend to wear out their welcome, like Carle).

That's your assumption, but it's not really true. What if I flipped that around and said "few defensive defensemen are good enough to compensate for bad offense." Is that more believable? You can be the worst defenseman in the world, an absolute train wreck in your own zone, but if you transition the puck up the ice effectively and convert on your opportunities in the offensive zone at a high rate, you are going to be an asset to your team. Carle wore out his welcome because he stopped scoring. Teams are still paying for points.

The two most valuable defensemen this season were Erik Karlsson and Brent Burns (Hockey Reference had Burns as the most valuable player overall and Karlsson the 2nd most valuable skater behind Burns) . Neither known for their defense, get dumped on all the times for their mistakes, but they generate so much offense it doesn't really matter what they are doing in their own zone. You can throw in Josi, Byfuglien, Krug, and Werenski in there too. Some of those guys aren't even bad defenders, but they get labeled because they are small and/or really offensive.

All I want to know about a player is does he drive play and does he convert his zone time into chances and goals? If the answer is yes to both questions I want him on my team.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I said it with Pittsburgh. They may not have a world beater of a defense in terms of defensive play in their own zone but pretty much all those guys can move the puck to some degree. Obviously they're banged up right now & missing one of the best in the league in Letang but at full strength like the year before this was more so the case. Their ability to move the puck allows them to play at a high pace in Sullivan's system.

 

[Striiker]

Best defense is a good offense.

There's still a better chance of the best defensive defensemen in the world getting scored on while the opponent has the puck in your defensive zone than there is when you're in the offensive zone. A player who can get the puck from the defensive zone to the offensive zone is very effective at preventing goals, and that's all that matters.

Defense doesn't specifically mean being strong, fighting on the boards, pushing people around in front of the net, and blocking pucks... those are just a few different ways to try to be defensive. It means not getting scored on, no matter how that's accomplished.

 

[Tripod]

Is this really a discussion on what is more teachable.....offense or defense?

 

[Striiker]

Is this really a discussion on what is more teachable.....offense or defense?

A discussion in the same sense as someone saying that Siberia is hotter than the Sun, and then being corrected, is a discussion.

 

[Jtown]

Best defense is a good offense.

this is so true .

 

[Striiker]

this is so true .

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm... wonder where ever you could be going with this.


But before this ends up becoming another one of those threads, I'll clarify I meant moving the puck, being in the offensive zone, and getting chances, not simply converting/scoring.

 

[Curufinwe]

Oh you meant being a dominant possession player.

 

[Striiker]

Yes.