Tell me please who has been put on ltir that could still play hockey at any level? This should be quick since you already know ones that weren't injured but put onto ltir.
Waived: Sharks Waive Torres
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Tell me please who has been put on ltir that could still play hockey at any level? This should be quick since you already know ones that weren't injured but put onto ltir.
CrypTic
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I didn't say that they were not injured. That is not in question with respect to Torres. Couture is the most recent example but it's many players on LTIR. Couture practiced with the team. He could clearly skate and hold a stick. He could literally have played beer league hockey. Same with many players on LTIR. They can still skate. They can still hold hockey sticks. They could literally play at some level, though probably at a low one. Yet they are put on LTIR and no one questions it. So why this higher standard for Torres?
Yeah i am not even going to bother if you keep sticking to the crazy notion that someone that is injured (which is coming from a doctor) should not be put on ltir because they can still hold a stick and skate. Lol
CrypTic
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That is not my argument. I'm the one arguing against that and saying that is not the standard. It's 210 and PF and others who are saying that if Torres can literally play hockey at any level, he can't be on LTIR.
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Team doctor says player cannot play in a game: eligible for LTIR
Team doctor says player can play in a game: not eligible for LTIR
It's literally that simple.
Team doctor says player can play in a game: not eligible for LTIR
It's literally that simple.
You're really going to compare Couture's situation to Torres? There is no benefit in keeping Couture out of the lineup longer than they need to. Torres is trying to return which is why he will stay off of LTIR as long as he wants to since he's capable of playing. There is no higher standard for Torres. He's healthy enough to play games as a hockey player and thus he's trying. You're trying to put him back on LTIR because he sucks right now. That's not good enough and that's never been good enough. You're trying to lower the standard of what puts one on LTIR.
If a doctor says there is no injury. It does not matter, if all he can play is beer league hockey he cannot be put onto ltir.
But if a doctor says there still is an injury there. He can and most likely will be put onto ltir.
The fact that torres was cleared by the doctor by the doctor saying the knee injury he had previously is 100% heeled up, means there is no way that he can be put onto ltir. The team/torres would have to get a doctor to say yes he is not healthy enough to resume playing hockey to be allowed back onto ltir.
The funny thing is with ltir, it is litterally 1 or the other. There is no middle ground. Either you are injured or you are not injured.
CrypTic
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I understand that. There is clearly an injury here. I don't think that part of it is in question. Torres had multiple surgeries. I also doubt that any doctor said that Torres's knee was 100%. It clearly isn't and I doubt that any PT or doctor or other medical professional would dispute that.
Lets here it for cryptic he has apparently found the way to bypass the salary cap for aging/crappy players. Which no other Gm/coach/owner has been able to figure out in the past how ever long ltir has been in place as a rule in the league (i know it was longggggg before the salary cap)
CrypTic
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Yeah, having an injured player is a great way to bypass the salary cap. And no GM has ever thought of putting an injured player on LTIR. I'm a genius.
How about let's hear it for Barrie who can't make a responsive reply so mocks ppl instead?
Of course you're not going to see what doctors would have to fill out for LTIR certification. I doubt they're allowed to divulge such information to the public. The LTIR protocols are based on the Club's physician's opinion on whether the player will be unfit to play hockey for 24 days and ten NHL games due to injury or illness. Since Torres is off LTIR and in the AHL playing games, he can't just go on LTIR unless he gets hurt again.
Apparently a doctor did do just that. But you just want to ignore it.
Torres is not injured (key word), he is just not as good as he once was.
CrypTic
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Where are you getting that information? If a prior injury makes a player unfit to play, why can't that be the basis for LTIR?
CrypTic
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1. Why do you say he's not injured?
2. Per the CBA, disability can be the basis of LTIR. Why wouldn't that apply here?
But torres is NOT INJURED. How you keep ignoring the doctors and just insist on using your own personal non doctor prognosis is beyond me.
It's in the CBA. If a prior injury prevents him from being fit to play hockey then he can go on LTIR but there is no such basis for that with Torres right now because he's playing in the AHL.
What disability does torres have? Is it that he is just slower then he once was? Sorry but that is not a disability. Is it that he is shying away from hitting? Sorry that is not a disability either.
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We know what the team doctor said because he cleared Torres to play. And if you actually read the CBA as you claimed, you'd know this.
It's section 50.10(d). I'd copy and paste the whole section but it would be annoying, so feel free to look it up yourself if you want the entire text. The important part:
CrypTic
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How am I ignoring the doctors? They're the ones who performed surgery on Torres, not me. If they didn't think he was injured, why did they do all those surgeries?
I've acknowledged that they would need the doctors to fill out whatever certifications are required. You're the one who is ignoring that. So far, no one has said exactly what they'd have to certify and, as PF notes, no one here is likely to be able to say that bc few, if any, of us know what they say (or if there is more than one form for different situations, which is common) and if any of us did, we probably wouldn't be able to divulge that info. Certainly not on a public forum like HF.
So torres and the team went against doctors orders and said his knee was healed with getting the doctors permission?
The only way torres is allowed to be playing right now is because a doctor has specifically told the team/league that he is 100% healthy. Doesn't mean that he is back to 100% as a hockey player or as strong as he needs to be to be a nhl player.
Because Torres has been cleared to play hockey and has been in the AHL. So while they've performed procedures on him, they've still cleared him to play and he is playing. That's really the end of it until something changes at this point.
CrypTic
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Wow! Salty. FWIW, I have probably provided more info about the CBA than anyone on this board, certainly in the last year or so.
That isn't specific. I've pointed that out repeatedly. Further, that is not the same as what you said which was:
Team doctor says player cannot play in a game: eligible for LTIR
Team doctor says player can play in a game: not eligible for LTIR
CrypTic
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What? No. I have no idea how you'd jump to that conclusion. The doctors and Torres thought that the knee was in better shape than it turned out to be.
CrypTic
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I agree that doctors would need to certify Torres for LTIR. So, in that sense, I agree with you. Since neither of us knows what a doctor would be required to say in order to certify Torres, there's probably not much point in discussing this further since we don't have sufficient information to form a real opinion IMO. We can agree to disagree about our guesses.
