Sens Lounge LXXXVIII | Can I Borrow A Feeling?

[Micklebot]

Oh great, the vegan police are back.

I'm roasting a chicken for dinner tonight, I guess I should start making early funeral plans. On the one hand, I don't want to burden my wife when I die at 50 due to my ill-informed carnivorous diet, but she also eats meat and is the same age as I am, so I guess we'll both die around the same time, so I should't worry about it.

Phew. That's a relief.

You're gonna lose your vegan superpowers

 

[BonkTastic]

What do people think humans did before discovering fire and the ability to cook animal flesh?

The overwhelming evidence points to us being scavengers: fruit, vegetation, insects, stolen eggs, and raw meat. We even ate "found meat" (aka: already dead animals we found that weren't too far spoiled yet - the remains of other carnivorous animals' dinner). We were full omnivores far before we could control fire.

The ability to control fire (which we have had totally mastered about 120,000 years, but some studies say we have had competent knowledge of for at least 400,000 years, with some good arguments that we've known about controlling fire for almost 1.5 million years) extended our lifespans, but it didn't really change our diet. That didn't happen until we start settling into communities and agrarian societies.

In fact, humans controlling fire probably allowed us to eat more VEGETABLES in our diet, not more meat. Fire opened up a huge range of vegetables that were, prior to fire, fairly inedible. Starchy vegetables, roots, etc... We probably ate less meat in our diets post-fire.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Man, if you have a little money it becomes so much easier to make more of it. When you have very little you have next to no chance to get ahead.

 

[Icelevel]

Oh great, the vegan police are back.

I'm roasting a chicken for dinner tonight, I guess I should start making early funeral plans. On the one hand, I don't want to burden my wife when I die at 50 due to my ill-informed carnivorous diet, but she also eats meat and is the same age as I am, so I guess we'll both die around the same time, so I should't worry about it.

Phew. That's a relief.

I can annoy myself sometimes. seriously.
But I was just responding to the post about living off milk, eggs, chicken. It's not good for long term health. Not to mention the other problems it creates.

I'm not sure if the post was supposed to be advice or not. If it was, it's dangerous.

 

[Mingus Dew]

I've been trying to get my body fat % down. Since about August I've gone down from 148 to 140. I dont notice too much of a difference in my body fat % but I can definitely feel the muscle loss in my arms and chest.

I burn 1800-2200 calories a day. I've been eating between 1400-2200 calories a day.

Im not sure if I should keep losing or spend like 3 weeks eating 2300 calories and lifting.

What do?

I'm trying to drop my body fat as well. I'm not an expert but I can tell you what I've been doing for my cut (I was starting around 160 pounds and have been lifting for a little over a year).

I run 5K 5 times a week and lift 6 times a week. This level of activity likely puts my maintenance somewhere around 2400 calories but I haven't been super scientific about that part. I eat 1800 calories (give or take 50 cals in either direction) every day. I try to keep my protein intake above 100g per day, and honestly that isn't too difficult at all. I also do my best to get 8 hours of sleep every night.

I've been on the cut for one month now, and have definitely noticed a drop in body fat. I have also managed to maintain muscle size, likely because I'm working out often and eating a high protein diet. I don't do cheat days/meals, and if I drink I factor that into my daily limit (so if I'm going to have 6 beers that means sticking to 1000 calories of solid food, give or take).

I'm also trying to eat clean (even though it's supposedly just a matter of calories in versus calories out) - oatmeal, eggs, fruits and veggies, rice, Greek yogurt, chicken breast, etc.

If you want to bulk, then bulk, but I'd commit to that for longer than 3 weeks.

 

[Here I Pageau Again]

It's shocking to me that more people don't do this. Tenants can be a pain, but if you do your homework on them, there really isn't much to worry about unless all of them decided to bail on their leases all at the same time.

Either way, vacancy is very low right now (at least in sudbury), and nice apartments in a good area are a very hard thing to find, and worth hanging on to if you are going to be renting for the unforseen future.

I think it is hard for people to do because of the cost initially. For me, I was too busy paying off school loans to even be able to get a mortgage at a decent rate or one big enough to afford anything more than a tiny condo.

And even now with debt paid off and really being able to save, I'm not sure I have interest in income properties. While if you get good renters and such, it can work out, I just don't care to do that.

I can annoy myself sometimes. seriously.
But I was just responding to the post about living off milk, eggs, chicken. It's not good for long term health. Not to mention the other problems it creates.

I'm not sure if the post was supposed to be advice or not. If it was, it's dangerous.

People should just eat from all food groups. I know a lot of people get hung up on diets (especially females) but I figure if I eat non-processed foods and eat an assortment of fruits, veggies, meats and dairy I'll do alright. Yeah, there are better choices of those groups -- but keeping sugars and processed foods on the low end, you'll be pretty good. Your lifestyle will change your diet slightly based on your bodies needs however.

There was a study done on what eating a "University Diet/Impoverished Diet" did to your body (so kraft dinner, canned foods and such) and a few of the participants got scurvy. So get some Vit. C!

 

[BonkTastic]

But I was just responding to the post about living off milk, eggs, chicken. It's not good for long term health. Not to mention the other problems it creates.

I'm not sure if the post was supposed to be advice or not. If it was, it's dangerous.

Eating chicken and drinking milk is dangerous advice? Oh my GOD, stop it.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Eating chicken and drinking milk is dangerous advice? Oh my GOD, stop it.

If eating chicken is bad for you I'm going to die at 30.

Countless chickens have died to feed my hunger.

 

[Micklebot]

Eating chicken and drinking milk is dangerous advice? Oh my GOD, stop it.

I think the dangerous advice he refered to was "If you aren't really into lifting 4-5x per week and getting huge, you can easily survive off of something like a glass of milk, an egg, and a piece of chicken / some tofu", suggesting that a long term diet of that would be dangerous.

Clearly, a long term diet that restricts you to not havin any fruit of vegtables is bad, but I think the initial post was more intended as, if you restrict your proteins to xyz you can survive.

Not sure if such a restricted diet (only milk, egg, chicke, tofu as you're protein sources) would be dangerous, but it would likely be very boring.

 

[Busboy]

[aQUOTE=BonkTastic;109242179]The overwhelming evidence points to us being scavengers: fruit, vegetation, insects, stolen eggs, and raw meat. We even ate "found meat" (aka: already dead animals we found that weren't too far spoiled yet - the remains of other carnivorous animals' dinner). We were full omnivores far before we could control fire.

The ability to control fire (which we have had totally mastered about 120,000 years, but some studies say we have had competent knowledge of for at least 400,000 years, with some good arguments that we've known about controlling fire for almost 1.5 million years) extended our lifespans, but it didn't really change our diet. That didn't happen until we start settling into communities and agrarian societies.

In fact, humans controlling fire probably allowed us to eat more VEGETABLES in our diet, not more meat. Fire opened up a huge range of vegetables that were, prior to fire, fairly inedible. Starchy vegetables, roots, etc... We probably ate less meat in our diets post-fire.[/QUOTE]

I don't know why you felt like either post was "vegan policing." The discussion was health related and you took it towards an animal rights perspective with your post about a chicken funeral. Nobody in this thread is judging or shaming you or being hostile.

Asserting that a healthy diet is achievable through plant based protein is not policing. When I speak to vegan friends I am just as quick to assert that eating moderate amounts of animal byproducts and protein can be just as healthy.

I'm concerned when I hear any health or evolutionary related assertion that starts with "the overwhelming evidence." I studied nutrition in post-secondary and worked in the health/nutrition counselling and research industry for half a decade and "overwhelming evidence" is not something you hear credible people saying when making claims or describing theories. The fact is, there an overwhelming amount of conflicting information. But I have an open mind so I'm certainly willing to look at any body evidence you would like to provide in the form of pier-reviewed research studies.

But we don't really need to get into it over this issue, and an Internet forum is hardly the place to convince someone of scientific theories. Just keep in mind that humans have proven to thrive and survive on an extremely diverse diet which has changed countless times through evolutionary stages.

 

[MakeOttawaGreatAgain]

The "complete protein" thing definitely causes me to cringe every time I hear it.

Obviously you can build muscle without animal protein. What do people think humans did before discovering fire and the ability to cook animal flesh? Wither away and die after birth?

NFL players, MMA fighters, Powerlifters. Look at any athletic competition and you can find top athletes who got there on a plant based diet. Also George Laraque, David Ortiz... Basically guys much bigger and stronger than the bros posting their gainz on the Internet.

You can get it from plants. I included soy in my list. I also didn't include seafood (animal product). All I said was that was the "general gist".

Complete proteins are proteins that contain all essential amino acids, ones that your body cannot produce on it's own. The easiest/cheapest to access foods that have it are, like I said: meat, dairy, eggs, fish, and soy. I don't know why this makes you cringe.

Also, most of those athletes hit their macros through supplements. So if they are vegan, they are probably eating soy-based (or other veggie based) protein powders.

There is literally NOTHING incorrect about that section of my post.

 

[Busboy]

Eating chicken and drinking milk is dangerous advice? Oh my GOD, stop it.

You're being as sensationalist as right wing journalist.

The given advice was to consume .5 grams / pound of body fat from complete protein sources (animal protein). That is beyond the moderate amount recommended by WHO.

Nobody said "eating chicken or drinking milk is dangerous," that is a misrepresentation of what was being said. The response was closer to saying "that is beyond the recommended amount of protein from animals and will lead to long term health effects."

 

[MakeOttawaGreatAgain]

I can annoy myself sometimes. seriously.
But I was just responding to the post about living off milk, eggs, chicken. It's not good for long term health. Not to mention the other problems it creates.

I'm not sure if the post was supposed to be advice or not. If it was, it's dangerous.

I didn't say that that's ALL he should eat!

I was saying that if those were his ONLY sources of protein during the day he would be okay. Jesus, reading comprehension!

You're being as sensationalist as right wing journalist.

The given advice was to consume .5 grams / pound of body fat from complete protein sources (animal protein). That is beyond the moderate amount recommended by WHO.

Nobody said "eating chicken or drinking milk is dangerous," that is a misrepresentation of what was being said. The response was closer to saying "that is beyond the recommended amount of protein from animals and will lead to long term health effects."

That's not even what I said! I even put in parentheses that the exact amount of protein needed when you are trying to build muscle is inconclusive. This is just a number used by powerlifters and body builders.

 

[BonkTastic]

... with your post about a chicken funeral. Nobody in this thread is judging or shaming you or being hostile.

No, not planning the chicken's funeral, planning MY funeral.

Because apparently eating chicken is "bad advice", and detrimental to long life.

 

[BonkTastic]

You're being as sensationalist as right wing journalist.

That is possibly the most insulting thing anyone has said to me in half a decade.

 

[Busboy]

You can get it from plants. I included soy in my list. I also didn't include seafood (animal product). All I said was that was the "general gist".

Complete proteins are proteins that contain all essential amino acids, ones that your body cannot produce on it's own. The easiest/cheapest to access foods that have it are, like I said: meat, dairy, eggs, fish, and soy. I don't know why this makes you cringe.

Also, most of those athletes hit their macros through supplements. So if they are vegan, they are probably eating soy-based (or other veggie based) protein powders.

There is literally NOTHING incorrect about that section of my post.

If you are studying this topic in school then I would encourage you to take the advice from your post to your nutrition professor / teacher and ask their opinion.

I won't be able to change your mind on the subject but hopefully they can help you understand why it might cause some people to cringe.

 

[MakeOttawaGreatAgain]

The whole ****ing point to my post was to tell Kezia to stop trying to lose weight because he is already skinny. He should now work on trying to build muscle to fill out his frame which will help lower his body fat %.

I gave him some reasons on why he is losing weight but not so much fat (he even said he was losing muscle). So I told him to stop eating on a deficit and to make sure his diet has enough glucose and proteins. Complete proteins are used in synthesis. Incomplete proteins are not. There is an all-or-nothing rule when it comes to proteins. Ones that are not are simply metabolized. That's it. I literally had a mid-term on this 2 weeks ago.

 

[BonkTastic]

The given advice was to consume .5 grams / pound of body fat from complete protein sources (animal protein). That is beyond the moderate amount recommended by WHO.

Link?

 

[Wallet Inspector]

In the words of Rich Piana "You gotta eat big to get big".

 

[Mingus Dew]

The whole ****ing point to my post was to tell Kezia to stop trying to lose weight because he is already skinny. He should now work on trying to build muscle to fill out his frame which will help lower his body fat %.

I gave him some reasons on why he is losing weight but not so much fat (he even said he was losing muscle). So I told him to stop eating on a deficit and to make sure his diet has enough glucose and proteins. Complete proteins are used in synthesis. Incomplete proteins are not. There is an all-or-nothing rule when it comes to proteins. Ones that are not are simply metabolized. That's it. I literally had a mid-term on this 2 weeks ago.

Is it actually possible to bulk up while lowering your BF% though? I was always told that those two goals are basically incompatible (which is why people do the whole bulk/cut cycle thing in the first place).

 

[MakeOttawaGreatAgain]

Is it actually possible to bulk up while lowering your BF% though? I was always told that those two goals are basically incompatible (which is why people do the whole bulk/cut cycle thing in the first place).

Yeah, totally. There's different types of "bulks". I'm not suggesting he eat at a huge calorie surpless, just that he makes sure he's not on a deficit, eat enough fat and protein, and to hit the gym so that his muscles develop.

So basically, over time, if his weight slightly increase it will mostly be lean muscle mass. If it stays the same, he'll still have burned away some of his fat stores and increased his muscles.

I think the reason why people say it's impossible is because many people look at exercise as some sort of race. Like, "I wanna be shredded by Spring" or "I wanna bench 300lbs in a year" or something. In which case, ya, it's not really possible.

But, if instead of looking at it as a race you look at it as a marathon or a lifestyle, then it is totally possible. I've been eating like this for the past 6-ish months and I have slowly, but surely, lost fat, increased muscle, gotten stronger and have become much nicer aesthetically. I only went from 175 to 165. I have no where near the results of some of the people who have those insane "one year transformations", but I am planning on being healthy and fit my whole life, so I am doing something that works in the long term.

 

[Mingus Dew]

Yeah, totally. There's different types of "bulks". I'm not suggesting he eat at a huge calorie surpless, just that he makes sure he's not on a deficit, eat enough fat and protein, and to hit the gym so that his muscles develop.

So basically, over time, if his weight slightly increase it will mostly be lean muscle mass. If it stays the same, he'll still have burned away some of his fat stores and increased his muscles.

I think the reason why people say it's impossible is because many people look at exercise as some sort of race. Like, "I wanna be shredded by Spring" or "I wanna bench 300lbs in a year" or something. In which case, ya, it's not really possible.

But, if instead of looking at it as a race you look at it as a marathon or a lifestyle, then it is totally possible. I've been eating like this for the past 6-ish months and I have slowly, but surely, lost fat, increased muscle, gotten stronger and have become much nicer aesthetically. I only went from 175 to 165. I have no where near the results of some of the people who have those insane "one year transformations", but I am planning on being healthy and fit my whole life, so I am doing something that works in the long term.

Cool. So I guess that's something akin to body recomposition?

I'm hoping to do a bulk in the new year, and I'd like to do exactly what you described.

 

[Icelevel]

I didn't say that that's ALL he should eat!

I was saying that if those were his ONLY sources of protein during the day he would be okay. Jesus, reading comprehension!

Thats not good advice. It's not ok for long term health.
Wait, what does he eat at night?

 

[Busboy]

Link?

I'm having trouble finding their specific recommendations right now. I'll check again after work.

For now you can check this out:
http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/nutrientrequirements/healthydiet_factsheet394.pdf?ua=1

This is their recommended healthy diet, and notice that they don't include meat in the section "a healthy diet contains." The only mention of meat is in relation to moderating fat intake.

I'll post later tonight with more links.

 

[BonkTastic]

For now you can check this out:
http://www.who.int/nutrition/publications/nutrientrequirements/healthydiet_factsheet394.pdf?ua=1

This is their recommended healthy diet, and notice that they don't include meat in the section "a healthy diet contains." The only mention of meat is in relation to moderating fat intake.

They also don't include water or liquids of any kind in the section "a healthy diet contains", so pardon me if I don't take complete omission of mention as any kind of hard or fast rule here.

It ALSO says, as a recommendation on reducing fats intake, to "changing how you cook – remove the fatty part of meat"

... which doesn't say not to eat meat, but to avoid eating the fat from the meat, which is a really good way to reduce fat intake.


"You should limit your fat intake to less than 30% of total energy intake - we recommend you start by literally not eating pure fat". - Captain Obvious.