Speculation: Senators Attendance This Season So Far

[Buck Aki Berg]

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It doesn't help that Ottawa has less than a quarter of Toronto's population in the same amount of area - Terry Fox Drive to Trim Road is roughly the same distance (about 40km) as YYZ to Kingston Road along the 401, and the Ottawa River to Barrhaven is about the same distance as the Gardiner to the 407. Ottawa is so sparsely populated that public transit options, especially in/to the suburbs, don't bring in the return on investment needed to keep themselves afloat.

Unfortunately this city loves its greenbelt, even though most people only interact with it by burning gasoline while driving through it on their way to and from work. We need to start developing the greenbelt, instead of extending Kanata, Orleans, and Barrhaven further away from the core.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

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It doesn't help that Ottawa has less than a quarter of Toronto's population in the same amount of area - Terry Fox Drive to Trim Road is roughly the same distance (about 40km) as YYZ to Kingston Road along the 401, and the Ottawa River to Barrhaven is about the same distance as the Gardiner to the 407. Ottawa is so sparsely populated that public transit options, especially in/to the suburbs, don't bring in the return on investment needed to keep themselves afloat.

Unfortunately this city loves its greenbelt, even though most people only interact with it by burning gasoline while driving through it on their way to and from work. We need to start developing the greenbelt, instead of extending Kanata, Orleans, and Barrhaven further away from the core.

The problem with the Greenbelt started way back when they developed Bells Corners, which is in the middle of the belt. That allowed development down Robertson and into what is now Kanata. But to get rid of the Greenbelt? I mean ya, it's a problem now, since we screwed up the Gerber plan which was to contain everything within the belt, but that land gets used for walking and hiking, biking, cross country skiing, and is some very important recreational land especially with the developments out at Kanata Lakes encroaching the bike trails.

Economy wise, ya sure it would be good to level the greenbelt, but it is a terrible idea for the populations that live around it.

Plus, there will be a hell of a lot of dead deer on the sides of roads.

 

[BonkTastic]

If you're complaining about urban sprawl, the greenbelt isn't the problem.

The lack of in-fill and redevelopment WITHIN the Greenbelt is the problem. Look at how densely populated Toronto and Montreal's "Downtown + 15km" is. Vancouver too, for that matter.

 

[Mingus Dew]

If you're complaining about urban sprawl, the greenbelt isn't the problem.

The lack of in-fill and redevelopment WITHIN the Greenbelt is the problem. Look at how densely populated Toronto and Montreal's "Downtown + 15km" is. Vancouver too, for that matter.

Yep. I think there is a definite argument to be made for the efficiency of building "up" instead of "out" in this case. You could do a lot of building in the core before over-development became a problem a la Toronto.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

At least we aren't Calgary. The kings of suburban sprawl. So many big highways (erm, "trails") that have to be built to get to places like Okotoks.

Then again they have a downtown arena so... lol

 

[BonkTastic]

The problem with the Greenbelt started way back when they developed Bells Corners, which is in the middle of the belt. That allowed development down Robertson and into what is now Kanata.

Bells Corners, as a community, predates the Greber plan by about a hundred-plus years.

I mean... it had a post office in 1851.



They either had to plan the greenbelt around Bells Corners, or tear down over a couple of thousand homes, businesses and government offices... plus tear up an enormous number of paved roads, dig up an insane number of electrical and plumbing lines, etc...

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Bells Corners, as a community, predates the Greber plan by about a hundred-plus years.

Timeframes? We talkin' bout timeframes?

Interesting. I didn't know that.

Either way, Robertson facilitated passage through the belt and development of Kanata ensued in the 60s. They could have stopped it and built their hi-tech centre within the belt, but they chose to create this big residential/commercial municipality outside of it.

 

[BonkTastic]

Either way, Robertson facilitated passage through the belt and development of Kanata

Fun fact: Robertson Rd used to have the nickname of "Whiskey Road", due to all of the taverns along it.

It was formerly known as "Arnprior Rd", because in the 1800's, it was the main road used to get to Arnprior. It used to cut north-west, through present day Kanata (then the Township of Hazeldean), and was a major road connecting to the upper parts of the Valley.

It also used to be part of Highway 7 & Highway 15, dating back to the late 1920's.

 

[Buck Aki Berg]

The problem with the Greenbelt started way back when they developed Bells Corners, which is in the middle of the belt. That allowed development down Robertson and into what is now Kanata. But to get rid of the Greenbelt? I mean ya, it's a problem now, since we screwed up the Gerber plan which was to contain everything within the belt, but that land gets used for walking and hiking, biking, cross country skiing, and is some very important recreational land especially with the developments out at Kanata Lakes encroaching the bike trails.

Economy wise, ya sure it would be good to level the greenbelt, but it is a terrible idea for the populations that live around it.

Plus, there will be a hell of a lot of dead deer on the sides of roads.

I'm definitely not suggesting we "get rid of it", but we have to start looking at carving into the sacred cow before our suburbs start spreading halfway to Toronto and Montreal. There are certainly some spots that are worth preserving for their leisure value (I practically grew up in the Old Quarry Trail), for their environmental value (Mer Bleue comes to mind), and for their agricultural value (like the farmland north of Barrhaven). But there's a lot of land that's just sitting idle that the NCC seems to think we should just stand around and look at and be proud to have it. I'm definitely not advocating clusters of condos or swaths of detached homes; planned communities of a reasonable density could integrate very well with the greenspace.

 

[DrunkUncleDenis]

Fun fact: Robertson Rd used to have the nickname of "Whiskey Road", due to all of the taverns along it.

It was formerly known as "Arnprior Rd", because in the 1800's, it was the main road used to get to Arnprior. It used to cut north-west, through present day Kanata (then the Township of Hazeldean), and was a major road connecting to the upper parts of the Valley.

It also used to be part of Highway 7 & Highway 15, dating back to the late 1920's.

I think I've heard that somewhere before.

Mr. Robertson must have been the liquor inspector responsible for closing down all the taverns.

It would be cool if everyone still called it Whiskey Rd.

 

[FuriousSenator]

The problem with the Greenbelt started way back when they developed Bells Corners, which is in the middle of the belt. That allowed development down Robertson and into what is now Kanata. But to get rid of the Greenbelt? I mean ya, it's a problem now, since we screwed up the Gerber plan which was to contain everything within the belt, but that land gets used for walking and hiking, biking, cross country skiing, and is some very important recreational land especially with the developments out at Kanata Lakes encroaching the bike trails.

Economy wise, ya sure it would be good to level the greenbelt, but it is a terrible idea for the populations that live around it.

Plus, there will be a hell of a lot of dead deer on the sides of roads.

An inherently selfish view if you think about it. Basically we've agreed as a city that we'd like to keep transformed green land in the middle of our city which has basically led to the absolute destruction of acres of natural, forested green land in a massive swathe OUTSIDE the greenbelt. Not to mention it has forced our cars, buses, trucks etc... to drive much further every day leading to even more environmental degradation...

I remember when there were forests and deer along Campeau Drive. Not anymore. And it's not stopping. If I had the choice, I'd rather that kind of development stay close to where it had already taken place.

Ottawa isn't a very sustainable place. As others have said, we've kind of agreed we're a 'car first' city somewhere down the line and I really respect the likes of Jim Watson and others who have basically said that this needs to end and we need to refocus on densification and public transit. It'll take a lot of work (stubborn old Ottawa mindsets), but i'm very hopeful that in 20-25 years we'll start to see a better Ottawa that has returned to its core.

 

[PoutineSp00nZ]

Fun fact: Robertson Rd used to have the nickname of "Whiskey Road", due to all of the taverns along it.

It was formerly known as "Arnprior Rd", because in the 1800's, it was the main road used to get to Arnprior. It used to cut north-west, through present day Kanata (then the Township of Hazeldean), and was a major road connecting to the upper parts of the Valley.

It also used to be part of Highway 7 & Highway 15, dating back to the late 1920's.

I live on Baseline now because I went back to school this fall at Algonquin. This has to be one of the most depressing areas in the city . . . just so concrete and rundown. Feels like Toronto outskirts

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

If you look at some of the old photos of Ottawa (50-100+ years ago), we had streetcars, very wide roads downtown and room for parking, lots of curb appeal, lots of trees....the city looked like a freaking paradise.

Now....ugh. City planers screwed up so royally over the last five decades.

 

[BonkTastic]

I live on Baseline now because I went back to school this fall at Algonquin. This has to be one of the most depressing areas in the city . . . just so concrete and rundown. Feels like Toronto outskirts

Baseline is an ugly road, no doubt.

It used to be the border between Nepean and Ottawa before the 1999 amalgamation though, so it makes sense that it's so oddly developed. The north side was developed by Ottawa, who were hemorrhaging money for decades and pushed all of it's ugly development as far south as it could, to the city limits. The South side of Baseline was developed by the cash-flush City of Nepean, who pushed all of its "ugly commercial" development as far north as it could to take advantage of being close to Ottawa.

The result was... not pretty.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

If you look at some of the old photos of Ottawa (50-100+ years ago), we had streetcars, very wide roads downtown and room for parking, lots of curb appeal, lots of trees....the city looked like a freaking paradise.

Now....ugh. City planers screwed up so royally over the last five decades.

How so?

 

[Inkling]

If you look at some of the old photos of Ottawa (50-100+ years ago), we had streetcars, very wide roads downtown and room for parking, lots of curb appeal, lots of trees....the city looked like a freaking paradise.

This is getting way way off topic, but cool enough that I need to mention it in case people are not already aware....you can go to the geoOttawa maps on the City of Ottawa website and you can select aerial photos (via a link in the top right corner) from present time back to 1958. It's super interesting to look at your neighbourhood, or wherever, and how it's changed over the years.

http://maps.ottawa.ca/geoottawa/

To bring it back to hockey, if you look at the 1958 or 1965 aerial photos, you can see the Ottawa Auditorium still there, where the old Ottawa Senators played.

 

[jason2020]

I would suggest a market filled with public servants have in general kept up with inflation.

Fact is Ottawa is a small market with a fairly high transient population that likely supports a team in some other city or has little interest in general.

Ottawa is not really a small market now if you company it to Toronto and MOntreal yes but over all its not.

 

[jason2020]

I think of all Canadian cities Ottawa is the weakest in terms of attendance and fan support in general.

Short history is probably why

What will be interesting is if the LIberals do close the tax loop holes you going to see it impact all Canadians teams and not ina good way.

 

[jason2020]

Less to do with history and everything to do with this city having a relatively small private sector.

People on this board complain about location, cost, just about everything to do with the Senators!

Fact is the Senators have the lowest average prices of any Canadian team and quite frankly the time it takes to get anywhere in this city is relatively short in comparative terms.

Yes but look at Edmonton/Calgary/Toronto/Montreal large companys buy a huge chunck of there tickets.

 

[jason2020]

People also don't put into consideration the customer service aspect of all of this.

As a former season ticket holder there are reasons why I don't go anymore. Plus the owner straight out lies to us all the time.

It's expensive, it's a luxury, but the nhl doesn't see it like that. I'm not getting into it so I'll stop here.

How does he lie buecase some rumors claim so.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

How so?

This is getting way way off topic, but cool enough that I need to mention it in case people are not already aware....you can go to the geoOttawa maps on the City of Ottawa website and you can select aerial photos (via a link in the top right corner) from present time back to 1958. It's super interesting to look at your neighbourhood, or wherever, and how it's changed over the years.

http://maps.ottawa.ca/geoottawa/

To bring it back to hockey, if you look at the 1958 or 1965 aerial photos, you can see the Ottawa Auditorium still there, where the old Ottawa Senators played.

If either of you are on Facebook, there are two pages: Lost Ottawa and Lebreton Flats Remembered, that have tons of amazing steetview photos of what Ottawa used to look like. Beautiful wide streets, tons of trees, amazing atmosphere......gorgeous.

So much character in the city lost.

Edit: Just to add from Lost Ottawa, a nice pic of the Auditorium...

 

[Inkling]

If either of you are on Facebook, there are two pages: Lost Ottawa and Lebreton Flats Remembered, that have tons of amazing steetview photos of what Ottawa used to look like. Beautiful wide streets, tons of trees, amazing atmosphere......gorgeous.

So much character in the city lost.

Edit: Just to add from Lost Ottawa, a nice pic of the Auditorium...

Thanks, love those sorts of sites. I haven't seen that picture of the Aud before, interesting to see.

 

[Filatov2Kovalev2Bonk]

How does he lie buecase some rumors claim so.

Melnyk has contradicted himself multiple times, but more recently he has said that he's not going to blow his mind out on spending to the cap but that he would spend to improve the upstairs (since there's no limit to what you can pay coaches and management). Despite this, we had no noise about bringing in Babcock, Cameron could have been thanked for his short stint, and we have no analytics team and so on.

It would be nice for Melnyk to just be honest, say this team can't afford going above $5X,000,000 per year, has to scrimp and save unless it's sold out every night. Bryden did it and I bought tons of tickets then. Melnyk never asks us to buy tickets...which leads me to believe that there isn't as much of an attendance issue as people think. If there were, we'd hear about it from the usual suspects on TSN1200 and Ottawa Sun/Citizen.

 

[Cacciaguida]

I don't care how honest Melnyk is, if he can't afford to run a pro hockey team he should sell it to someone who can.

 

[thinkwild]

Gene Autry at the Auditorium, cool old pic. I wonder if we complained about attendance issues and the big citys taking all the cbc air time back then too.

Hockey must be the only industry where if they arent operating at 100% capacity for every event, it is considered a failure by many. Movie theatres certainly dont think that way. Not many bars or restaurants i can think of with such a luxury. This market has shown when the team becomes really exciting, i.e winning, they generate a lot of excitement, money, and buzz in the city. Seems like a good incentive that fans would want for an owner? And as a pleasant side effect, we can often get walk up tickets.

I dont think there's any reason for concern either if this trend continues a while, which makes it feel more of an ego based concern of fans than a practical one. But we are less than half the size of big markets with 80-90% of their attendance.

Our drafting and developing should be paying off in the coming years. Soon hopefully we will have the players to spend on, which is often easier and more successful than trying to spend to find the players. When that day comes, tickets will be harder to get and a lot more expensive again. Something we can look forward to i hope.