Samuel Morin's progress

[Magua]

According to people connected to the team, they were not as impressed with Morin's camp as the fans. That's irrespective to Sanheim, who just so happened to have the camp they were looking for. He wasn't "lucky," he did well. And I'm still not sure why people enjoy disparaging far and away the most impactful of the 3. He's doing very well in the NHL right now, points aside, was the best of the 3, is the best of the 3, and by a mile will be the best of the 3.

Hagg's side had nothing to do with anything. He started the camp as their presumptive favorite and was on the left until Ghost asked him to play RD, not the team.

 

[Rebels57]

According to people connected to the team, they were not as impressed with Morin's camp as the fans. That's irrespective to Sanheim, who just so happened to have the camp they were looking for. He wasn't "lucky," he did well. And I'm still not sure why people enjoy disparaging far and away the most impactful of the 3. He's doing very well in the NHL right now, points aside, was the best of the 3, is the best of the 3, and by a mile will be the best of the 3.

Hagg's side had nothing to do with anything. He started the camp as their presumptive favorite and was on the left until Ghost asked him to play RD, not the team.

Which makes them deaf, blind, and dumb.

Hagg over Morin comes down to "safe and reliable with no upside" vs "risky and sometimes erratic with upside."

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

They’re not exactly using Sanheim as a player that they need. He’s playing bottom pairing minutes with really no special teams minutes. Even at ES they’re not giving him the linemates in order to squeeze production out of him as Hakstol’s too busy trying to match teams with defense in mind.

 

[Magua]

Which makes them deaf, blind, and dumb.

Hagg over Morin comes down to "safe and reliable with no upside" vs "risky and sometimes erratic with upside."

Hagg was the one who got whispers of praise about how good he was doing last season. A lot of us were like, "Really....?" Turns out it was entirely true on their end. That's their evaluation.

What makes zero sense is they love a player like Manning, who by no means is safe. He jumps up in the play, shoots a ton, makes mistakes......but he is aggressive, that's without doubt. Morin is aggressive but better defensively, smarter, and more talented with it. But he they take issue with for being aggressive versus the hockey rubber that is Hagg. None of it makes a lick of sense. They're so inconsistent.

 

[Rebels57]

Hagg was the one who got whispers of praise about how good he was doing last season. A lot of us were like, "Really....?" Turns out it was entirely true on their end. That's their evaluation.

What makes zero sense is they love a player like Manning, who by no means is safe. He jumps up in the play, shoots a ton, makes mistakes......but he is aggressive, that's without doubt. Morin is aggressive but better defensively, smarter, and more talented with it. But he they take issue with for being aggressive versus the hockey rubber that is Hagg. None of it makes a lick of sense. They're so inconsistent.

That's why I am so disenchanted with the franchise, starting with Hextall and on down. They contradict themselves around every corner.

 

[Rebels57]

They’re not exactly using Sanheim as a player that they need. He’s playing bottom pairing minutes with really no special teams minutes. Even at ES they’re not giving him the linemates in order to squeeze production out of him as Hakstol’s too busy trying to match teams with defense in mind.

His absence from PP2 is flabbergasting.

You don't have to go 4 F 1 D when you have a D that is more offensively talented than 2 of the 4 F they use on PP2.

 

[NYCFlyer]

They’re not exactly using Sanheim as a player that they need. He’s playing bottom pairing minutes with really no special teams minutes. Even at ES they’re not giving him the linemates in order to squeeze production out of him as Hakstol’s too busy trying to match teams with defense in mind.

He's a rookie they are easing in. As he gets more comfortable and shows he can excel he will get more responsibility. Let him focus for his first 40 games in the NHL on just playing D and getting used to the speed, strength and mental parts of the NHL. Its a big adjustment. Sanheim is going to be really really good, no need to rush him.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

He's a rookie they are easing in. As he gets more comfortable and shows he can excel he will get more responsibility. Let him focus for his first 40 games in the NHL on just playing D and getting used to the speed, strength and mental parts of the NHL. Its a big adjustment. Sanheim is going to be really really good, no need to rush him.

I’m struggling to see how giving him some special teams work & some shifts with players who can actually produce would do him harm.

 

[NYCFlyer]

The reason Morin isn't up is, as Hextall said, he is scared of a young that is too young in his mind. That is it.

Watch what he does not what he says. I think they thought before training camp it would be Morin and Hagg. They were really impressed with Sanheim in training camp and pulled an audible. I think they actually chose Hagg over Morin because they were a bit worried about the D (rightly so) and chose the safer player.

 

[NYCFlyer]

I’m struggling to see how giving him some special teams work & some shifts with players who can actually produce would do him harm.

These are all 100% Hextall calls and I'm in the camp that he's thoughtful and smart about these issues but no one gets it right all the time because its hard to get right. They did the same initially with Provorov. Honestly every player is different as far as where they are at skill wise, physically, mentally. Players do get overwhelmed, lose confidence and potentially develop bad habits. Sometimes i think its just based on team needs and not optimal development. The real question is how do they decide when a player is ready for more responsibility?[/QUOTE]

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

Well it would be beneficial for the team as well if they tried to find more ways to make Sanheim productive.

 

[deadhead]

Sanheim is the most talented of the three, but because his game requires risk taking, he's also the one they have to ride the hardest.
He developed bad habits in juniors (which he readily admits) and has to stay focused on when to take risks, and to skate as hard getting back as he does attacking.

They're just bringing him along slowly, and trying to avoid putting too much defensive pressure on him, for one thing he lacks strength to fight for the puck along the boards and the corners, and he's not a shot blocker.

This will all come to him over the next couple years, he'll get stronger, understand his defensive responsibilities (as he's said, in juniors he was just told to go make plays), and learn what he can get away with in the NHL.

To me, most talented offensive players who come out of junior or many college programs are similar to mobile QBs coming out of college, in that they're going from a situation where they were told to just be athletes to one where almost everyone is an athlete and you have to function in a more structured environment and understand the game and your responsibilities. While hockey is less structured and more fluid, to function well you have to read the defense, know what can work, understand how they're attacking you and who is your responsibility. And that takes time and discipline to master. So coming from a situation where a coach just told you to skate and make plays, to one where you are expected to play with fundamentals and positioning, is a big jump for a lot of players. Look at Babcock demoting and benching top picks in Toronto to try to get that message across. Or Drouin getting sent back to the AHL.

It's easier for players like Morin and Hagg, they have fewer responsibilities and are taught to play it safe (because if they get caught deep, it can quickly get ugly).

To be fair to Manning, two years ago he was totally lost, used to playing the Sanheim/Ghost role in the AHL and just learning that he wasn't good enough to pull that off at the NHL level. He's become much more reliable, doesn't get caught deep as much, fewer bad pinches, etc. He's turned himself into a passable 3rd pair defenseman.

 

[Striiker]

He's a rookie they are easing in. As he gets more comfortable and shows he can excel he will get more responsibility. Let him focus for his first 40 games in the NHL on just playing D and getting used to the speed, strength and mental parts of the NHL. Its a big adjustment. Sanheim is going to be really really good, no need to rush him.

This isn't a valid excuse when you consider how they've used Hagg.

The whole "they don't want to rush rookies" thing has been proved false. They clearly have no problem with rushing rookies, they just don't trust certain ones for imaginary reasons.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

I know the opinion of most of the beats is low around here and in general it's justifiable, but we do owe them at least a small apology for ripping them on the "Hagg has really improved," narrative. That's just what they were being fed.

And I'm still not sure why people enjoy disparaging far and away the most impactful of the 3. He's doing very well in the NHL right now, points aside, was the best of the 3, is the best of the 3, and by a mile will be the best of the 3.

You answered your own question -- points. It's the same people who think Gudas is a 3rd pairing guy or is safe and physical but generates no offense.

There are few hills I'm willing to die on, but this is one of them -- Travis Sanheim is the best 23 and under player in this org.

 

[Magua]

There are few hills I'm willing to die on, but this is one of them -- Travis Sanheim is the best 23 and under player in this org.

If we were talking best young players in a nebulous sense, him turning into the best is certainly plausible. But in this org? With how they view and handle him? Good luck with him actually becoming the best. We'll be lucky enough if he turns into the best Bouwmeester he can be.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

If we were talking best young players in a nebulous sense, him turning into the best is certainly plausible. But in this org? With how they view and handle him? Good luck with him actually becoming the best. We'll be lucky enough if he turns into the best Bouwmeester he can be.

Fair. I was approaching it from a more agnostic point of view. I didn't say most talented because that gets into the debate of whether the mental aspects are talent or not, but given how many times I've had to hear Ron Hextall say, "The puck is faster than any player," I'm back to just being frustrated. Most talented. It's concise.

 

[NYCFlyer]

This isn't a valid excuse when you consider how they've used Hagg.

The whole "they don't want to rush rookies" thing has been proved false. They clearly have no problem with rushing rookies, they just don't trust certain ones for imaginary reasons.

Proved? How is "want" proved false. Who dont they trust that they should? Hagg played higher up in the lineup due to injury/suspension to the RHD. Why don't you explain yourself instead of make vague allegations.

 

[NYCFlyer]

I know the opinion of most of the beats is low around here and in general it's justifiable, but we do owe them at least a small apology for ripping them on the "Hagg has really improved," narrative. That's just what they were being fed.



You answered your own question -- points. It's the same people who think Gudas is a 3rd pairing guy or is safe and physical but generates no offense.

There are few hills I'm willing to die on, but this is one of them -- Travis Sanheim is the best 23 and under player in this org.

Provorov just killed you.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

They have willingly played Hagg in the top four all season long. Injuries & suspensions have nothing to do with it. He was playing over Gudas when both were in the lineup.

 

[Striiker]

Proved? How is "want" proved false. Who dont they trust that they should? Hagg played higher up in the lineup due to injury/suspension to the RHD. Why don't you explain yourself instead of make vague allegations.

I don't think I've ever encountered anyone who's had more trouble understanding simple posts.

You just see my username and your jimmies get rustled before you even see what I write...

I'd bet you every other person on this board understood exactly what I was saying, regardless of whether they agree with it or not.

 

[Magua]

Fair. I was approaching it from a more agnostic point of view. I didn't say most talented because that gets into the debate of whether the mental aspects are talent or not, but given how many times I've had to hear Ron Hextall say, "The puck is faster than any player," I'm back to just being frustrated. Most talented. It's concise.

I typed that last post with tears streaming down my face just so you know.

 

[Striiker]

They have willingly played Hagg in the top four all season long. Injuries & suspensions have nothing to do with it. He was playing over Gudas when both were in the lineup.

I have no idea why people keep getting this wrong... it's not that long ago...

Hagg isn't in the lineup because he's a RD or because of Gudas or any other reason. They like him and overrate his abilities. End of story.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

I have no idea why people keep getting this wrong... it's not that long ago...

Hagg isn't in the lineup because he's a RD or because of Gudas or any other reason. They like him and overrate his abilities. End of story.

Because that would entail criticism towards Hextall & Hakstol which some people are incapable of placing any blame at their feet for getting obvious things wrong.

 

[Striiker]

Because that would entail criticism towards Hextall & Hakstol which some people are incapable of placing any blame at their feet for getting obvious things wrong.

But we're just stupid fans... how could we be right and they be wrong!?

GMs and coaches don't make mistakes.

 

[deadhead]

I do think Hextall walks on water, go look at the prospects thread and tell me I'm wrong!

Hextall wants a defense first team, he was a former goalie, that's how he thinks. He's happy with Hakstol's scheme, he hired him to implement it.
The Flyer defensemen are pretty aggressive, but they want controlled agression.
If you watch Provorov, he's more aggressive this year, will pursue the puck deep into the O-zone, but he has a good feel for the cycle and when he's protected.

Whereas Sanheim is just learning these things. They want him to be as aggressive as Provorov and Ghost, but they don't want him making the mistakes they've spent two years beating out of Manning. He's frequently out of position, gets caught deep and is a bit lost in his D-zone. They haven't sent him down, they play him on a regular basis, and will play him more as he cuts back on his mistakes and shows more awareness. But he's the third best puck moving defenseman, so he gets third line minutes right now - to play more, he has to take Ghost's ES minutes. Eventually, they'll work him into the 2nd PP.

How often do you ever see Gudas take chances in the O-zone? He hangs around the blue line and has perfected his shot from the point, but he rarely goes in deep. That's the style they want from Hagg, Morin, Alt, etc. And that's a lot easier to master, especially for a rookie that has a couple AHL years under his belt.