Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Born in a hurricane with a snake in both fists

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Not only do I have to not trust any farts right now, now I have this to worry about.

Nothing is ever set in stone, so just gotta hold out hope JR doesn't do something stupid.

 

[Peat]

Sobotka would be a great add for this team. Getting him for an asset we were probably going to lose anyway sounds really cool, particularly if we got something on top.

I'm not fond of the idea of trading our spark plug and best Plan B but I'd consider this one.

Problem is we'd pretty much have to go out and trade for a gritty winger straight away in this scenario.

 

[ColePens]

Trading Hornqvist is sending the exact wrong message. If we're shaking things up, shipping out our hardest worker is not the way to do it.

Exactly what I was going to post. I would not be happy with a #72 trade.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I'll be honest, it's creepy how fixated people are on Hornqvist and Letang.

 

[billybudd]

I'm talking about the 3rd line too, in Hagelin's case. And I never mentioned someone like JVR. But you said that wing isn't a need at all. There's a big gap between not needing a wing at all and needing a JVR level wing. We are somewhere in the middle of those things. But I don't know how anybody can look at Hags and Kuhn this year and think we're fine at LW.

We have finite trade resources. A large problem with puck movement on the back end. A decent problem at center. A questionable backup goaltender situation.

Could we stand to improve third line left wing? Perhaps. At the cost of anything we might need to fix these other, vastly more important problems? Absolutely not.

And I'm sorry, but quibbling around the edges with something like Hagelin and Grabner? Grabner only has 2 assists on the year, yet he still manages to TRIPLE Hagelin's point total.

Grabner has, like, 8 empty net goals on the season. He's surely headed to break the record for highest percentage of goals scored without a goaltender in the net, probably shattering it. Don't confuse lots of empty net goals with actual production that wins or loses games.

Last year he nearly doubled Hagelin's points, and put up 21 more goals. That's a very clear upgrade. I think you are just generally underselling how badly Hagelin is playing.

Yes, he doubled Hagelin's production last year. He halved it the year before that. A Hagelin for Grabner swap is very much quibbling around the edges.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

His play this year isn't better actually. He's a defensemen, not a rover, though he plays like it. His offensive acumen is never a question. If he helps set up two goals and directly or indirectly helps give up three, it's a net loss. Nearly half way through the season and it's not getting any better. Offensively HIS stats look great. Good, it'll help with his value. But defensively he's just god awful and has been for quite some time.

He drives possesion at an elite level and scores at an elite level, he would have to be the worst defensive defenseman in the league to be a negative.

Not to mention the obvious that were using less than half a year sample after a major injury.

You dont trade that for a run of the mill 4 and a 3c.

 

[Coastal Kev]

Sprong scored an ES goal tonight that zero players in their bottom six can score. He took a pass in the high slot that most players would one time... and he out waited the goalie and tucked it deftly behind him.

That's what he does. Because he knows how to score goals and he guns pucks at every opportunity. Now maybe some may believe that the Pens bottom six that has what...Less than a dozen goals between all of them doesn't need need a guy who knows how to score goals, but I disagree.

Sprong was ready to be in the lineup 2 years ago. Would he have starred back then? No. But he would have scored some big goals.

The fact that it's 2 years removed and he's stuck in WBS is one of the dumbest decisions that I have ever witnessed from this organization. (especially since there is so much dead weight on the current NHL roster).

"back to back", yup. Doesn't mean that they still aren't making dumb roster decisions. I stated dumping Pouliot without ever giving him 50 games to find his game was dumb. Throw in the fact that they signed Hunwick and Pouliot has way more upside at a cheaper cost.

Sprong should have started the season with the big club. If he had, he would be among the team leaders in scoring and our record would be better.

 

[SEALBound]

I love creating trade proposals for big ticket items. I'd LOVE to have ROR here. Dear god what a score that would be...but I think that's a pipe dream. He's a big part of that team in Buffalo.

Here's my more realistic trades:

Hagelin for B. Pouliot
Cole+Kuhnhackl+pick for Lindberg+VGK dman. Not sure which dman. Engo, Miller, Merrel, maybe even Garrison @50%. I just don't know who would be available.
Sheary for Pageau

Jake-Sid-Simon/Horny
Pouliot-Malkin-Kessel
Rust-Pageau-Horny/Simon
Lindberg-Sheahan-DiPauli(WBS)/Reaves

Dumo-Letang
Maatta-Schultz
Hunwick-Rudwedel
VGK Dman

There is a ton of flexibility in that lineup. Bottom six centers: Pageau, Lindberg, Sheahan. Good balances of speed, skill, and grit.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Not bad SEAL. Not bad.

I'll try one with BUF/EDM since they were reportedly scouting PIT last:

Hags for Pouliot.
Sheary+Cole+1st? for RNH+Benning

Jake-Sid-Horny
Pouliot-G-Phil
Simon-RNH-Rust
Archie/Kuhn-Sheahan-Rowney
Reaves

Dumo-Letang
Olli-Schultz
Hunwick-Benning
Ruh

Murr
Jarry

^that roster has 2.32M to spare afterwards so you could retain on Hags a bit...

 

[Coastal Kev]

Exactly what I was going to post. I would not be happy with a #72 trade.

If you aren't going to resign him, why not trade him for value. Also Sobotka would solve a huge void and is somewhat similar to Horny. Also throw in the fact that the ideal lineup includes Phil on the 3rd line which means Horny with Sid and we know what Sid thinks of that idea.

I have begged for Sobotka for 3 years, probably a pipe dream, but it's a welcome dream.

 

[SEALBound]

Not bad SEAL. Not bad.

Gives us $3mil in cap space too. Buffalo would be the only one taking on salary so we have have to add a kicker.

Course that $3mil will go a ways in providing raises. Lindberg is a RFA so he'll need a new deal. Prob low 2's I imagine. Merrel probably won't ask much. $1.1now, RFA. $1.25mil? Pageau is signed for 3 years (same as Sheary). Pouliot is a UFA and you lose Hagsy's last year. Lot's of positives.

If you aren't going to resign him, why not trade him for value. Also Sobotka would solve a huge void and is somewhat similar to Horny. Also throw in the fact that the ideal lineup includes Phil on the 3rd line which means Horny with Sid and we know what Sid thinks of that idea.

I have begged for Sobotka for 3 years, probably a pipe dream, but it's a welcome dream.

He's cooled off some after his hot start but man he would be a great add. Just seems like the guy that would love to bring in the playoffs. I base that off nothing...just a feeling.

Someone said: Hornqvist and a 2nd for Sobotka, Barbashev and a 3rd in the Pens thread on the main board. That one got me thinking a bit...

Try to get deal done with Horny before the TDL. No go, pull the trigger on this.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Anyways, theres certainly some options there and hopefully the market opens up some so JR can get wheeling and dealing. I know other teams will be heavily in on any higher profile C that becomes available. Atleast NSH is out of that market now.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Oh we're doing the "if you aren't 100% sure someone will re-sign you should trade them even if they're a legit part of your team" thing again.......

 

[wej20]

I'd rather have Hornqvist for a playoff run and lose him in Free Agency than trade him.

 

[Shady Machine]

I know people here aren't going to like this, but I'm going to ask anyway. Someone on the trade board suggested Sobotka and maybe a pick or a prospect for Hornqvist. Sobotka is under contract for 2 more years beyond this year at $3.5 million per year. Would you do that deal? As an added caveat, assume you're not going to re-sign Hornqvist when responding.

I can't assume my worst nightmare. Just can't bring myself to it.

 

[Shady Machine]

Hornqvist may help the Penguins more than Sobotka does, but which group helps the Penguins more: Rowney and Hornqvist or Sobotka and Sprong? Because that's the comparison you should be looking at.

That's the comparison you should be looking at if that's the only legitimate trade option. It's not.

 

[Shady Machine]

Bro, he's literally one goal off the lead with two games in hand AS A ROOKIE... and that's not good enough?

Now we are going to nitpick how he gets his goals? C'mon.

He's on the third line playing with coal miners and yet he's still ONE GOAL off the lead in the entire league as a rookie (did I mention that yet?)

People need to understand what Guentzel did was exceptional and rarely happens in the A with a rookie. Guentzel also came in and set rookie NHL playoff records.

If we are holding rookies to this new "Guentzel Standard", none of them will EVER get called up again.

I agree the Guentzel standard is too high, but if you are the Pens and need ES goal production, it's fair to be concerned about bringing up a player that primarily scores his goals on the PP, a spot he won't get much time on in the NHL.

You've seen him more than me this year so the linemate issue is likely a legitimate one.

 

[KIRK]

A teaser (I'll have more in about an hour):

It's my understanding that JR's priorities in terms of what he'd like to achieve when the dealing is done is the following:

1. A high end 3C (not necessarily Duchene but sure as **** a lot better than Sheahan).
2. A winger a la old school Kunitz so it's not just Horny in the top nine with sandpaper to his game.
3. A high end backup goalie who's affordable (subject to availability).
4. Defense (closer to the deadline, unless of course a defenseman is going out as part of another deal . . . I have NOTHING yet confirming that, just stating the obvious that if you moved a defenseman out, you probably should add one back in sooner than the deadline).

All of this was known, of course. The slight surprise is the relative priority assigned to finding a winger with some jam. That MIGHT explain in part why Horny is on his off wing with Geno and Phil (they've seen what we've seen about what's lacking on their LW if you use any of the other available options).

As I said, give me a bit for more . . .

 

[Shady Machine]

I think trading Hornqvist would either go one of two ways. The first way is that the team almost feels like they got the wind knocked out of them, and that they're completely deflated that such a hard working core player got traded. The other way is that this team thinks "oh ****, our bad play caused a loved player who wasn't a problem to get traded out", and it wakes them up. Trading Hornqvist could be like firing a coach, in terms of impact. Hornqvist is not a problem at all on this team, what do you think it would show to players who are problems that Hornqvist got traded?

I think the second scenario is the more likely one. This team would be more likely to view Hornqvist being traded as a coach being fired, if I had to make a baseless guess. It would be a wakeup call to everyone, because if Hornqvist is being moved when he's not a problem, is anyone safe?

The coach gets fired because the team tunes him out. It's not a good comparison for Horny getting traded. You just don't trade heart and soul guys that are producing at career best paces to jolt a room of other under performing players. Particularly when that player scores the types of goals that are essential to winning in the playoffs.

No, No, No, NOOOOO (Michael Scott gif)

 

[Shady Machine]

Sprong scored an ES goal tonight that zero players in their bottom six can score. He took a pass in the high slot that most players would one time... and he out waited the goalie and tucked it deftly behind him.

That's what he does. Because he knows how to score goals and he guns pucks at every opportunity. Now maybe some may believe that the Pens bottom six that has what...Less than a dozen goals between all of them doesn't need need a guy who knows how to score goals, but I disagree.

I think we all agree that Sprong would be a jolt to this team's bottom 6 offense. Having said that, we are trying to point out why the org might not have called him up yet. That doesn't mean we agree with it though.

 

[Pancakes]

The coach gets fired because the team tunes him out. It's not a good comparison for Horny getting traded. You just don't trade heart and soul guys that are producing at career best paces to jolt a room of other under performing players. Particularly when that player scores the types of goals that are essential to winning in the playoffs.

No, No, No, NOOOOO (Michael Scott gif)

Similarly you don't trade guys just because they're going to be UFAs either. For some teams that thinking makes sense. Not for a team that is coming off back to back Cups. You do everything you can to get that third Cup in a row.

Imagine if we had that kind of thinking with Bones last year. Do we win the Cup without him? Probably not.

 

[Shady Machine]

If you aren't going to resign him, why not trade him for value. Also Sobotka would solve a huge void and is somewhat similar to Horny. Also throw in the fact that the ideal lineup includes Phil on the 3rd line which means Horny with Sid and we know what Sid thinks of that idea.

I have begged for Sobotka for 3 years, probably a pipe dream, but it's a welcome dream.

Well, they SHOULD sign him, so there's that. I guess if I KNEW that JR wasn't going to re-sign him, in theory I might be okay trading him (after a lot of anger and sadness), but Sobotka isn't the type of return I want. Why not create a package around Horny for a higher end guy?

 

[Shady Machine]

A teaser (I'll have more in about an hour):

It's my understanding that JR's priorities in terms of what he'd like to achieve when the dealing is done is the following:

1. A high end 3C (not necessarily Duchene but sure as **** a lot better than Sheahan).
2. A winger a la old school Kunitz so it's not just Horny in the top nine with sandpaper to his game.
3. A high end backup goalie who's affordable (subject to availability).
4. Defense (closer to the deadline, unless of course a defenseman is going out as part of another deal . . . I have NOTHING yet confirming that, just stating the obvious that if you moved a defenseman out, you probably should add one back in sooner than the deadline).

All of this was known, of course. The slight surprise is the relative priority assigned to finding a winger with some jam. That MIGHT explain in part why Horny is on his off wing with Geno and Phil (they've seen what we've seen about what's lacking on their LW if you use any of the other available options).

As I said, give me a bit for more . . .

Hey it's always good to know the GM sees exactly what we are seeing. Like any GM, JR is fair game to criticize, but he really is a breath of fresh air vs the tight lipped, conservative as shit Shero.

 

[canadianguy77]

I'd rather have Hornqvist for a playoff run and lose him in Free Agency than trade him.

That's a nice double whammy if they miss the playoffs and lose Hornqvist for nothing.

 

[Shady Machine]

Similarly you don't trade guys just because they're going to be UFAs either. For some teams that thinking makes sense. Not for a team that is coming off back to back Cups. You do everything you can to get that third Cup in a row.

Imagine if we had that kind of thinking with Bones last year. Do we win the Cup without him? Probably not.

Or Matt Cullen or Trevor Daley or even MAF, who many of us wanted traded. Sometimes it makes sense to move out the UFA to be when you have young talent ready to take over (Simon Despres vs Brooks Orpik), but in this case, we just don't have anything resembling an in house replacement for Horny.