Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Born in a hurricane with a snake in both fists

[Empoleon8771]

Hornqvist may help the Penguins more than Sobotka does, but which group helps the Penguins more: Rowney and Hornqvist or Sobotka and Sprong? Because that's the comparison you should be looking at.

Look at it without any emotion. Hornqvist has his obvious pros, specifically his work on the powerplay and his tireless work ethic. However, he's only a RW when the team is very deep on RW. He's a free agent after the year, and according to the Penguins beat writers, he's not likely to re-sign. He doesn't fit well with Malkin at all, and Crosby apparently doesn't like playing with him. If you trade Hornqvist for Sobotka (and maybe a pick or prospect), you would have something like this:

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon/Sprong
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Sheary-Sobotka-Rust
Kuhnhackl-Sheahan-Archibald

You definitely need to upgrade on Hagelin and you might need to trade for a RWer for Crosby if neither Simon or Sprong work there, but those are solvable issues. That 3rd line is really good and the 4th line is probably good too. If you could somehow get someone like Smith or Maroon for Cole, I think you end up a better team with those two trades.

But I can't just help but feel that moving Hornqvist is the exact wrong kind of shake-up.

I think it would be a bad idea if they want to trade Hornqvist in the name of a "shake up deal", because like you said, that's flawed because Hornqvist doesn't need a wake up moment. I don't think you can use "make a shake up trade" as a reason to move Hornqvist, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't move Hornqvist. They just can't justify it like that. They can't say "we traded Hornqvist because we needed a shake up trade and he made sense to trade", it has to be just "we traded Hornqvist because he made sense to trade".

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think it would be a bad idea if they want to trade Hornqvist in the name of a "shake up deal", because like you said, that's flawed because Hornqvist doesn't need a wake up moment. I don't think you can use "make a shake up trade" as a reason to move Hornqvist, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't move Hornqvist. They just can't justify it like that. They can't say "we traded Hornqvist because we needed a shake up trade and he made sense to trade", it has to be just "we traded Hornqvist because he made sense to trade".

Hornqvist for Sobotka would, imo, have the optics of a trade for next year. If I'm in that locker room, I would see it as throwing in the towel. I get why it could make sense, but it's still how I'd see it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hornqvist for Sobotka would, imo, have the optics of a trade for next year. If I'm in that locker room, I would see it as throwing in the towel. I get why it could make sense, but it's still how I'd see it.

Eh I'm not sure about that. Sobotka is 30 and has only 2 less points in 3 more games than Hornqvist this year. I think this team would be blindsided by that trade, but I don't think it would look like giving up on the year. I don't think it would be any more of a "trade for next year" than moving Cole for a center would have been.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Eh I'm not sure about that. Sobotka is 30 and has only 2 less points in 3 more games than Hornqvist this year. I think this team would be blindsided by that trade, but I don't think it would look like giving up on the year. I don't think it would be any more of a "trade for next year" than moving Cole for a center would have been.

I'm not in the room, so maybe I have that wrong. But I would predict it to go badly in the short term.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

More ES production. Guentzel when he was called up averaged nearly a ES points per game, he had 16 goals and 30 points at ES in 33 games. Sprong is a little over half a ES point/game, he only has 7 goals and 13 points in 23 games at ES. It's really nice that he's scoring a ton of goals on the PP, but he's not needed as a triggerman on a PP unit currently unless the Penguins split up their PP units into 2 units.

Ideally, I'd probably want Sprong at 17 or 18 goals and 26 or 27 points on the year, considering how much he has produced on the PP. Then again, if not for that bad stretch he had, he probably would be at those numbers already, so who knows? I don't actually think Sprong will be better or worse based on how many points he produces, it's not like he'd get EXP for scoring goals or something.

Bro, he's literally one goal off the lead with two games in hand AS A ROOKIE... and that's not good enough?

Now we are going to nitpick how he gets his goals? C'mon.

He's on the third line playing with coal miners and yet he's still ONE GOAL off the lead in the entire league as a rookie (did I mention that yet?)

People need to understand what Guentzel did was exceptional and rarely happens in the A with a rookie. Guentzel also came in and set rookie NHL playoff records.

If we are holding rookies to this new "Guentzel Standard", none of them will EVER get called up again.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Sabotka plays LW on the 2nd line which explains his production, but if the Pens get him, are they going to use him as a LW or 3C?

 

[Empoleon8771]

I think trading Hornqvist would either go one of two ways. The first way is that the team almost feels like they got the wind knocked out of them, and that they're completely deflated that such a hard working core player got traded. The other way is that this team thinks "oh ****, our bad play caused a loved player who wasn't a problem to get traded out", and it wakes them up. Trading Hornqvist could be like firing a coach, in terms of impact. Hornqvist is not a problem at all on this team, what do you think it would show to players who are problems that Hornqvist got traded?

I think the second scenario is the more likely one. This team would be more likely to view Hornqvist being traded as a coach being fired, if I had to make a baseless guess. It would be a wakeup call to everyone, because if Hornqvist is being moved when he's not a problem, is anyone safe?

Bro, he's literally one goal off the lead with two games in hand AS A ROOKIE... and that's not good enough?

ES points and goals aren't everything, but he's not going to get the kind of PP opportunities to produce in Pittsburgh that he has gotten in WBS. If he can't produce at ES, he's going to have an issue in the NHL. The Penguins won't kick Kessel off the top unit, and unless the Penguins run 2 powerplay units, having a triggerman PP goal scorer isn't a big enough need to call him up. It's not the "Guentzel standard", it's him needing to be better at ES than getting 4 ES points in 7 games in the AHL.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Bro, he's literally one goal off the lead with two games in hand AS A ROOKIE... and that's not good enough?

Now we are going to nitpick how he gets his goals? C'mon.

He's on the third line playing with coal miners and yet he's still ONE GOAL off the lead in the entire league as a rookie (did I mention that yet?)

People need to understand what Guentzel did was exceptional and rarely happens in the A with a rookie. Guentzel also came in and set rookie playoff records.

If we are holding rookies to this new "Guentzel Standard", none of them will EVER get called up again.

I feel like Sprong is going to get Pouliot'd.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Bro, he's literally one goal off the lead with two games in hand AS A ROOKIE... and that's not good enough?

Now we are going to nitpick how he gets his goals? C'mon.

He's on the third line playing with coal miners and yet he's still ONE GOAL off the lead in the entire league as a rookie (did I mention that yet?)

People need to understand what Guentzel did was exceptional and rarely happens in the A with a rookie. Guentzel also came in and set rookie playoff records.

If we are holding rookies to this new "Guentzel Standard", none of them will EVER get called up again.

In general I agree. But if we're talking about making a spot for him in the NHL, I think it's worth noting that such a large chunk of his scoring comes from PP time that he simply won't be getting in the NHL. I think he's still a great prospect for sure though.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Hornqvist may help the Penguins more than Sobotka does, but which group helps the Penguins more: Rowney and Hornqvist or Sobotka and Sprong? Because that's the comparison you should be looking at.

Look at it without any emotion. Hornqvist has his obvious pros, specifically his work on the powerplay and his tireless work ethic. However, he's only a RW when the team is very deep on RW. He's a free agent after the year, and according to the Penguins beat writers, he's not likely to re-sign. He doesn't fit well with Malkin at all, and Crosby apparently doesn't like playing with him. If you trade Hornqvist for Sobotka (and maybe a pick or prospect), you would have something like this:

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon/Sprong
Hagelin-Malkin-Kessel
Sheary-Sobotka-Rust
Kuhnhackl-Sheahan-Archibald

You definitely need to upgrade on Hagelin and you might need to trade for a RWer for Crosby if neither Simon or Sprong work there, but those are solvable issues. That 3rd line is really good and the 4th line is probably good too. If you could somehow get someone like Smith or Maroon for Cole, I think you end up a better team with those two trades.
.

It doesn’t have to be Rowney+Hornqvist or Sobotka+Sprong.

I know you can move player but you have a Sid and the kids line again and they got scored on a lot against Columbus.

I don’t think that line up is better than:
Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Sheahan-Kessel
Simon-Rowney-Archibald
and there are trades that can improve that too.

I can look at it without emotion I’m a pretty analytical person and Hornqvist doesn’t stop going. Like Ogre said it’s a guy who plays how you want a player to play and it’s even more important in the playoffs. He gets more important come round 1.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

In general I agree. But if we're talking about making a spot for him in the NHL, I think it's worth noting that such a large chunk of his scoring comes from PP time that he simply won't be getting in the NHL. I think he's still a great prospect for sure though.

Is that a matter of the WBS coach using him like that only and not putting him in a position to succeed in the AHL or what?

I mean I get they want him to be better defensively, but he's an offensive threat that was freaking drafted to score goals. Now we need that and we're complaining he produces only on the powerplay because that coach might be a moron and not using him correctly? Oh and they want him to play better defensively while his offense isn't the issue?

 

[Ogrezilla]

I can look at it without emotion I’m a pretty analytical person and Hornqvist doesn’t stop going. Like Ogre said it’s a guy who plays how you want a player to play and it’s even more important in the playoffs. He gets more important come round 1.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Is that a matter of the WBS coach using him like that only and not putting him in a position to succeed in the AHL or what?

I mean I get they want him to be better defensively, but he's an offensive threat that was freaking drafted to score goals. Now we need that and we're complaining he produces only on the powerplay because that coach might be a moron and not using him correctly? Oh and they want him to play better defensively while his offense isn't the issue?

I have no idea. I'm not complaining about anything fyi, I just think it's worth noting. I assume the people making the decisions know more about the situation than I do.

 

[Empoleon8771]

It doesn’t have to be Rowney+Hornqvist or Sobotka+Sprong.

I know you can move player but you have a Sid and the kids line again and they got scored on a lot against Columbus.

I don’t think that line up is better than:
Sheary-Crosby-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Sheahan-Kessel
Simon-Rowney-Archibald
and there are trades that can improve that too.

I can look at it without emotion I’m a pretty analytical person and Hornqvist doesn’t stop going. Like Ogre said it’s a guy who plays how you want a player to play and it’s even more important in the playoffs. He gets more important come round 1.

I don't agree that this roster is better on paper than the Sobotka roster, plus you have this current roster being extremely stale currently. The Sobotka roster also likely gets a boost from the Hornqvist trade, as sort of a wake up call.

On paper, this team shouldn't trade Hornqvist. However, games aren't played on paper. This team is not good right now, they're sleepwalking through the season and it doesn't appear that it's going to get any better. This team is stale, that is the best word I can use to describe it. Your roster is by default worse than any big trade (that is close to fair in value and helps the team now, of course) because of that, doing nothing and your team is worse on the ice than what it is on paper.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Amazing . Why haven’t I seen that before?!

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I have no idea. I'm not complaining about anything fyi, I just think it's worth noting. I assume the people making the decisions know more about the situation than I do.

Sprong skates well and he shoots even better. He also likes to find the back of the net and can man the point, he's literally EXACTLY what we need in the line-up, he can't be any worse than half the forwards we have on the big club right now defensively.

For example, Brock Boeser plays basically 70% of his starts in the offensive zone, he played with a solid 2-way C to make-up for his deficiencies at defense. That's all you need to do with Sprong. You get a solid 3C that is good at both ends and can pass (oh hey we have one) and you throw Sprong on that line, defense will come, but if a guy is already polished offensively, you stop wasting.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sprong skates well and he shoots even better. He also likes to find the back of the net and can man the point, he's literally EXACTLY what we need in the line-up, he can't be any worse than half the forwards we have on the big club right now defensively.

I do agree with this though, if I could decide, Sprong would be up right now. Any issues that you might have with his play in WBS don't matter when you have players who are worse offensively and worse defensively in the NHL. It doesn't matter if Sprong's AHL production at ES is weak, the Penguins as a whole have had terrible production at ES this year. It doesn't matter if Sprong is bad defensively, because a vast majority of the wingers on this team are bad defensively.

I disagree with the thought that Sprong is playing so well that it's a travesty he's not up in the NHL right now, I agree with the thought that Sprong should be in the NHL right now. If the Penguins were playing well, I probably wouldn't want him up right now, it's just that they're not playing well.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I don't agree that this roster is better on paper than the Sobotka roster, plus you have this current roster being extremely stale currently. The Sobotka roster also likely gets a boost from the Hornqvist trade, as sort of a wake up call.

On paper, this team shouldn't trade Hornqvist. However, games aren't played on paper. This team is not good right now, they're sleepwalking through the season and it doesn't appear that it's going to get any better. This team is stale, that is the best word I can use to describe it. Your roster is by default worse than any big trade (that is close to fair in value and helps the team now, of course) because of that, doing nothing and your team is worse on the ice than what it is on paper.

Yeah I agree we need some trades to happen for sure and we are stale. He’s not the one though. I’d trade a lot of other players before him.

I disagree with the message it sends to the other players.

We seem to run into hot goalies quite often in the playoffs. Horny is the ace up the sleeve. I can’t imagine Sully would like this either.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

ES points and goals aren't everything, but he's not going to get the kind of PP opportunities to produce in Pittsburgh that he has gotten in WBS. If he can't produce at ES, he's going to have an issue in the NHL. The Penguins won't kick Kessel off the top unit, and unless the Penguins run 2 powerplay units, having a triggerman PP goal scorer isn't a big enough need to call him up. It's not the "Guentzel standard", it's him needing to be better at ES than getting 4 ES points in 7 games in the AHL.

Sprong scored an ES goal tonight that zero players in their bottom six can score. He took a pass in the high slot that most players would one time... and he out waited the goalie and tucked it deftly behind him.

That's what he does. Because he knows how to score goals and he guns pucks at every opportunity. Now maybe some may believe that the Pens bottom six that has what...Less than a dozen goals between all of them doesn't need need a guy who knows how to score goals, but I disagree.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Amazing . Why haven’t I seen that before?!

I was saving it for the right time and I couldn't wait any longer

Sprong skates well and he shoots even better. He also likes to find the back of the net and can man the point, he's literally EXACTLY what we need in the line-up, he can't be any worse than half the forwards we have on the big club right now defensively.

For example, Brock Boeser plays basically 70% of his starts in the offensive zone, he played with a solid 2-way C to make-up for his deficiencies at defense. That's all you need to do with Sprong. You get a solid 3C that is good at both ends and can pass (oh hey we have one) and you throw Sprong on that line, defense will come, but if a guy is already polished offensively, you stop wasting.

Hopefully we give him a shot soon.

 

[Nakawick]

Sprong still has a tremendous amount of upside at age 20. I think he gets a look in January personally. If he does get moved, like KIRK alluded to a few weeks ago, he will have to return a cost controlled center. I think the Pens have other pieces to move and that Sprong is part of the solution perhaps as early as next month.

 

[JackFr]

Trading Hornqvist is sending the exact wrong message. If we're shaking things up, shipping out our hardest worker is not the way to do it.

 

[Nakawick]

I think JR is trying to shake up the team without the actual trade. How the Pens play these next few games will tell how soon trades will take place. JR realizes that his team is vulnerable and that the Pens can't take the playoffs for granted.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I feel like Sprong is going to get Pouliot'd.

Well, let's just say it's important he gets a chance to show what he can do before the deadline.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Well, let's just say it's important he gets a chance to show what he can do before the deadline.

Not only do I have to not trust any farts right now, now I have this to worry about.