Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Born in a hurricane with a snake in both fists

[Ryder71]

It was a lucky win. We deserved it but we clawed our way through this one. It wasn’t pretty.

OK if you're gonna go that route what championship was ''pretty''? And you can go back to to the early 90's cup champs when Lemieux got slashed or when we were down 3-1 to the caps in the first round in 92, or down 3-2 to NJ in the first round in 91. Or in 2009 when Detroit dusted us 5-0 in game five of the cup finals. I mean if you're gonna say it wasn't ''pretty'', then when was it pretty for the pens in winning the cup?

 

[Pengu]

It's not the overall number that's the issue, but where those points are coming from. 7g/16pts at ES after 33 games isn't nearly good enough. 50% of his production being on PP is a big issue. And it's not just him that's having this issue. At least Kessel, Guentzel and Sheary are scoring at ES... because it's not like anyone else is.

% of production at ES:
Crosby: 7g/16pts - 53.8% / 50%
Malkin: 4g/16pts - 44.4% / 57.1%
Kessel: 11g/18pts - 73.3% / 48.6%
Letang: 0g/10pts - 0% / 41.6%
Guentzel: 7g/13pts - 58.3% / 61.9%
Sheary: 7g/11pts - 77.7% / 84.6%
Hornqvist: 5g/10pts - 45.4% / 50%

Which for me tells me that the skill in the team is there but the effort and hunger isn't

 

[Ogrezilla]

I have just never heard a critique of a championship team as ''messy''. Champion and ''messy'' don't really go together. But let's be real, every team has flaws and frailties. We blocked shots, killed penalties, got great goal tending and had star players that played to their abilities. I just can't marry the terms ''messy'' and ''champions'' together. If you want to be technical I guess most championships can be won without being works of art. But again when I think of a team being a mess or messy, I associate such terms with cellar dwellers, not two time champions.

I honestly haven't heard a single person say anything to the contrary about our D in last year's playoffs until just now. That defense had Ron Hainsey on it's top pair. It was a mess. I don't know how else to describe it. I can't imagine you haven't heard that defense described similarly until now.

OK if you're gonna go that route what championship was ''pretty''? And you can go back to to the early 90's cup champs when Lemieux got slashed or when we were down 3-1 to the caps in the first round in 92, or down 3-2 to NJ in the first round in 91. Or in 2009 when Detroit dusted us 5-0 in game five of the cup finals. I mean if you're gonna say it wasn't ''pretty'', then when was it pretty for the pens in winning the cup?

2016 was pretty.

 

[Tom Hanks]

OK if you're gonna go that route what championship is ''pretty''? And you can go back to to the early 90's cup champs when Lemieux got slashed or when we were down 3-1 to the caps in the first round in 92, or down 3-2 to NJ in the first round in 91. Or in 2009 when Detroit dusted us 5-0 in game five of the cup finals. I mean if you're gonna say it wasn't ''pretty'', then when was it pretty for the pens in winning the cup?

2016 was art! It was beautiful hockey and we seemed destined to win. I really wasn’t ever worried too much that we weren’t going to win. Occasionally against Tampa but it was more due to us than them being better. That team was probably the best I’ve ever seen.

 

[Ryder71]

I honestly haven't heard a single person say anything to the contrary about our D in last year's playoffs until just now. That defense had Ron Hainsey on it's top pair. It was a mess. I don't know how else to describe it. I can't imagine you haven't heard that defense described similarly until now.


2016 was pretty.

No it wasn't, we were down 3-2 to TB and had to cling to a 2-1 lead in game seven. So no, not pretty.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I should add that I don't think the individual players on our D played badly in 2017. They played great. They had to, because all of them were being forced to play over their heads. But injuries had guys in roles they weren't suited for, and we were short on puck movement the whole time.

 

[Ogrezilla]

No it wasn't, we were down 3-2 to TB and had to cling to a 2-1 lead in game seven. So no, not pretty.

Compared to 2017, 2016 was a work of art. If Sully is going to show footage of how he wants this team to play, he's going to go show them games from those 2016 playoffs.

 

[Ryder71]

2016 was art! It was beautiful hockey and we seemed destined to win. I really wasn’t ever worried too much that we weren’t going to win. Occasionally against Tampa but it was more due to us than them being better. That team was probably the best I’ve ever seen.

'92 was the best team and they got tested mightily in the early rounds.

 

[Ogrezilla]

'92 was the best team and they got tested mightily in the early rounds.

There are always other good teams too. That doesn't mean it wasn't pretty on our end. Pretty doesn't mean easy.

 

[Tom Hanks]

'92 was the best team and they got tested mightily in the early rounds.

I didn’t watch hockey then. 2016 is the best I’ve seen. Might not look like the best on paper but it was on the ice supported by great coaching.

 

[Ryder71]

Compared to 2017, 2016 was a work of art.

And yet the end result was the same. So you're more concerned with style points than the end result? That sounds like a very spoiled fan.

The 2016 was better, but let's not act as if they didn't have anxious moments. Just like every other cup team we had.

 

[Andy99]

I honestly haven't heard a single person say anything to the contrary about our D in last year's playoffs until just now. That defense had Ron Hainsey on it's top pair. It was a mess. I don't know how else to describe it. I can't imagine you haven't heard that defense described similarly until now.


2016 was pretty.

Yeah. 2016 we were incredible, but it was unsustainable. Last year, our defense had the same issues as now, but our shooting percentage, PDO was so high everything was going in for us. We were a counterpunch team. This year was have the same **** going on in our end, but we're not getting the same luck on offense, leading to this craptastic state we're in. Our shooting percentage may level out some but there's no guarantee. The Kings' was terrible all last year and they missed the playoffs and look at them now. What goes around....

 

[Ryder71]

I didn’t watch hockey then. 2016 is the best I’ve seen. Might not look like the best on paper but it was on the ice supported by great coaching.

But you see now teams have adjusted, so to think we can win in the fashion of our 2016 team, isn't realistic. And again that team faced elimination twice themselves.

 

[Ogrezilla]

And yet the end result was the same. So you're more concerned with style points than the end result? That sounds like a very spoiled fan.

The 2016 was better, but let's not act as if they didn't have anxious moments. Just like every other cup team we had.

Who said that? I sure as shit didn't. I'm more concerned with sustainability. It's not a reliable strategy to go in with a ragtag, injured group of D playing over their heads. Put that 2016 team back out there and I'm confident they win again more often than not. I don't feel the same about that 2017 team.

 

[Ryder71]

Who said that? I sure as **** didn't. I'm more concerned with sustainability. It's not a reliable strategy to go in with a ragtag, injured group of D playing over their heads. Put that 2016 team back out there and I'm confident they win again more often than not. I don't feel the same about that 2017 team.

And you don't think the league as emulated our speed game? Teams have already adjusted to that type of play. What worked then may not work now. We have to evolve and stay ahead of the fray.

Regardless of any of this, trying to threepeat is nearly impossible. Just ask any two time champ since 1983.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'd point to winning in 2009 with Fedotenko and Talbot as Malkin's wings. It was great. I loved those guys. That team was great and I was beyond thrilled to watch them play. And I wanted to find better wings for Geno before 2010, because Ruslan Fedotenko and Max Talbot are not good enough 2nd line wingers to win you Cups on a consistent basis.

 

[Ogrezilla]

And you don't think the league as emulated our speed game? Teams have already adjusted to that type of play. What worked then may not work now. We have to evolve and stay ahead of the fray.

Agreed. That's exactly why I would rather more puck movement on our back end. Getting less skilled and more shutdown d-men is the opposite of doing that. A guy like Gill would get embarrassed in today's NHL just like Scuderi did.

 

[Tom Hanks]

But you see now teams have adjusted, so to think we can win in the fashion of our 2016 team, isn't realistic. And again that team faced elimination twice themselves.

We are a different team but it’s not unrealistic that we can win in a similar fashion. That’s how we have to be built otherwise our D would have had to be overhauled.

We aren’t winning if we can’t get 3 scoring lines again (with a solid 4th line).

2017 without Letang, Sully played a different style that was going to be harder but what he thought was our best chance. It worked.

 

[Ryder71]

Agreed. Getting less skilled and more shutdown d-men is the opposite of doing that. That's exactly why I would rather more puck movement on our back end than more shutdown D. A guy like Gill would get embarrassed in today's NHL just like Scuderi did.

I used Gill as a reference for a defensive minded defensemen. What I mean is that he'll pay more attention to detail in his end of the ice. That doesn't mean we can't find a guy who isn't mobile and who can't make a good first pass. I'm talking more of the mindset of such a player.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I used Gill as a reference for a defensive minded defensemen. What I mean is that he'll pay more attention to detail in his end of the ice. That doesn't mean we can't find a guy who isn't mobile and who can't make a good first pass. I'm talking more of the mindset of such a player.

That's fair. But if you want a guy who can be a shutdown d-man like you said, but who can also handle the puck, we are going to be paying a hefty price to get it.

 

[Ryder71]

We are a different team but it’s not unrealistic that we can win in a similar fashion. That’s how we have to be built otherwise our D would have had to be overhauled.

We aren’t winning if we can’t get 3 scoring lines again (with a solid 4th line).

2017 without Letang, Sully played a different style that was going to be harder but what he thought was our best chance. It worked.

I agree we need to get better upfront, in fact I champion the cause of getting a high end 3c.

As it pertains to defense, I feel we already have the talent, mobility and experience to be well above average. The problem is no one is playing to their abilities.

Upfront we need to add, defensively we need to play better and make smart, logical and prudent decisions with the puck. That and getting Shultz back can go a long way.

 

[Ryder71]

That's fair. But if you want a guy who can be a shutdown d-man like you said, but who can also handle the puck, we are going to be paying a hefty price to get it.

A guy like Cole? Maybe we have a solution in house if he'd just play to his strengths. But, if we did add, that's the direction I'd endeavor into. Letang, Maatta and Shultz are all very apt at making clean crisp first passes and feeding the transition. Coles not bad in that regard either. I think we're set there.

 

[Ogrezilla]

A guy like Cole? Maybe we have a solution in house if he'd just play to his strengths. But, if we did add, that's the direction I'd endeavor into. Letang, Maatta and Shultz are all very apt at making clean crisp first passes. Coles no bad in that regard either. I think we're set there.

They are also all apt at getting hurt, sadly.

 

[Tom Hanks]

I agree we need to get better upfront, in fact I champion the cause of getting a high end 3c.

As it pertains to defense, I feel we already have the talent, mobility and experience to be well above average. The problem is no one is playing to their abilities.

Upfront we need to add, defensively we need to play better and make smart, logical and prudent decisions with the puck. That and getting Shultz back can go a long way.

Fixing the forward group goes a long way to helping the D and getting back to our game.

I mean I’d like to change Dumo for a bit better skater and puck mover but it’s not a priority or anything.

 

[Ryder71]

They are also all apt at getting hurt, sadly.

Unfortunately I have no control over that.