Ryan Murray = 2nd pairing dman?

[Crede777]

I don't care about the chemistry he has with Savard, you give your best dmen more minutes, and we know Torts let's players earn their minutes.

This is the problem with your argument. Torts heavily favors chemistry and spreading out talent rather than line matching. If Tortorella could have it his way, the pairings would look like this:

#1 - #4 (25 minutes)
#2 - #5 (20 minutes)
#3 - #6 (15 minutes)

He also likes to do this with the forward lines. The thing that keeps him from just spreading out the lines and playing them all equally is chemistry. When he finds players who like to play together, he tends to match them up.

 

[ReggieRed]

Murray played the final minutes of games with Jones...pretty safe to assume Torts trusts him with valuable ice-time

My (admittedly spotty) recollection was that this happened much more often earlier in the year and then diminished over time as the season progressed. Now, my perception of this seemingly decreased end-of-game playing time is likely colored by Murray being out due to injury. However, when he was still playing, I wondered whether the fact that I wasn't noticing him as much paired with Jones when holding a lead was that Torts was starting to trust Z more in those situations or that he was losing trust in Murray. Again, maybe it was just my perception, but this situation seemed to happen much more early in the year and less as the year went on. Is there any way to track this across the season given the data that is available on the web?

 

[CBJx614]

My (admittedly spotty) recollection was that this happened much more often earlier in the year and then diminished over time as the season progressed. Now, my perception of this seemingly decreased end-of-game playing time is likely colored by Murray being out due to injury. However, when he was still playing, I wondered whether the fact that I wasn't noticing him as much paired with Jones when holding a lead was that Torts was starting to trust Z more in those situations or that he was losing trust in Murray. Again, maybe it was just my perception, but this situation seemed to happen much more early in the year and less as the year went on. Is there any way to track this across the season given the data that is available on the web?

I'm not sure about in late game scenarios, but I know for a fact Zach didn't get any PK time until after Murray's injury.

 

[Cowumbus]

Not specifically directed at you but i thought your point about "beating out JJ..." Who's to say he didn't but JJ or Werenski or another rookie couldn't handle the off side and Murray's smarts and ability could?

I'm a homer but try to think in both stats and eyes. There was a lot happening last year that none of us likely grasp. I'd like to see us keep him and see where JJ lands this year. We still have no true RHD for the bottom pair. Murray isn't an expendable piece in my opinion. Not yet

Because we never saw any of those guys with Nutivaara. Never earned it. We will make endless excuses for Murray but he has not played in the top4 and other teams shouldn't have to assume he is top4 because "our team is so good he doesn't have to be top4. They see JJ playing over him, JJ is a veteran that should be able to play with a rookie.

 

[Cowumbus]

This is the problem with your argument. Torts heavily favors chemistry and spreading out talent rather than line matching. If Tortorella could have it his way, the pairings would look like this:

#1 - #4 (25 minutes)
#2 - #5 (20 minutes)
#3 - #6 (15 minutes)

He also likes to do this with the forward lines. The thing that keeps him from just spreading out the lines and playing them all equally is chemistry. When he finds players who like to play together, he tends to match them up.

All I'm hearing is that we are making excuses as to why he never stuck on the top two pairs. If Murray-Jones were the best pair, we could play them 30 mins a night. Chicago does this, you don't need to play the bottom pair much.

 

[CBJx614]

Nvm..

 

[mikeyp24]

Because we never saw any of those guys with Nutivaara. Never earned it. We will make endless excuses for Murray but he has not played in the top4 and other teams shouldn't have to assume he is top4 because "our team is so good he doesn't have to be top4. They see JJ playing over him, JJ is a veteran that should be able to play with a rookie.

The thing is... our top 4 is so good he doesn't need to be in the top 4. Your comment about JJ is off because the problem isn't JJ not being able to play with Nuti... Savard has trouble playing with anyone not JJ. We've seen Savard and Murray and it is a **** show. But we have also seen Murray play just fine with literally every other partner he has ever had. But Savard has also played like **** with every partner he's ever had except JJ. So what's your fix there?

 

[Mayor Bee]

Because we never saw any of those guys with Nutivaara. Never earned it. We will make endless excuses for Murray but he has not played in the top4 and other teams shouldn't have to assume he is top4 because "our team is so good he doesn't have to be top4. They see JJ playing over him, JJ is a veteran that should be able to play with a rookie.

If other teams don't know how to scout, that's their issue. If they don't understand that real life hockey isn't like matching pairings on an EA hockey game, that's their issue. If anyone reading this doesn't understand these concepts either, that's one thing but there's the chance to learn.

All I'm hearing is that we are making excuses as to why he never stuck on the top two pairs. If Murray-Jones were the best pair, we could play them 30 mins a night. Chicago does this, you don't need to play the bottom pair much.

Or you balance things, or you bring along players during the regular season so that you can roll 32/26/4 across your pairings like Chicago did if necessary.

I've watched an awful lot of hockey over the years, and one thing I've never been able to figure out is how two seemingly compatible defensemen may be a complete train wreck together on the ice while two seemingly incompatible ones mesh immediately. I remember, for example, a young Scott Niedermayer look absolutely awful next to Scott Stevens and vice versa. When that pair was broken up, with Stevens then paired with Bruce Driver and Niedermayer with Ken Daneyko, the Devils suddenly had two terrific pairings instead of one good one (Danyeko/Driver) and one that should be good but wasn't (Stevens/Niedermayer).

This isn't baseball, where there's a series of structured events that take place independently of teammates. A .330 hitter isn't suddenly going to become a .220 hitter because he gets moved from #4 to #5 in the batting order, the way that a defenseman may suffer immensely or blossom with a different partner.

 

[mikeyp24]

All I'm hearing is that we are making excuses as to why he never stuck on the top two pairs. If Murray-Jones were the best pair, we could play them 30 mins a night. Chicago does this, you don't need to play the bottom pair much.

Chicago has 1 defenseman right now in Keith so you might as well stick your best 2 together and let the rest try and play. When you have 5 guys who are top 3 capable you factor in skill and chemistry because it would be completely and utterly ****ing ******** to be so (blanking on the word here... I'm trying to think of a word that describes wasting talent by stacking 2 and over playing them instead of spreading out the over abundance of talent to get more... figured out the word right now) inefficient. If you play 2 top pairing caliber guys 30 minutes and wear them down while your 2nd pair is also top pair caliber and only playing 15... you are wasting talent. The other pair is going to be less efficient in those extra 7 or so minutes you could give the 2nd pair that is just as effective. On a team like Chicago it ok because even tired Keith would be more effective then...TVR I cant even think of whatever they have left there. Look at Jones and Murray in 15-16 for all you need to know about Murray. Look at the world cup.


Look at Jones and Werenskis numbers last year. Easily could be considered the best pair in the entire league. 1 was a Calder finalist the other was an all-star and both I think got Norris votes I think 1 each ish if I remember seeing the voting right. Johnson and Savard were widely regarded as on of the best if not THE best shut down pairing in the league last year. I heard it from our broadcast team, the opponents broadcast team, neutral broadcasters when on the national TV games, and in the playoffs. It was constantly referenced and they always showed graphics indicating how little that pair was scored against and they often showed their +/- ... IMPORTANT SIDE NOTE because advanced stats people look down on that number so much and say how unimportant that is BUT for 2 defenseman who don't necessarily score much and play 0 PP time but both got a good amount of PK time for them to have ^+30 for both of them at least late into the season I dont know the final numbers that is prettt ****ing telling of just how good they were defensively and how important their chemistry is together.

So over those 2 pairs why would you force Murray up there just because he is a 2/3D? Does he or management need to prove something? Sometimes you can have a luxury like Murray and be so incredibly deep you can use your 2nd best shut down and maybe the highest IQ defender on the team to slowly bring in a rookie who never played on NA ice. For a defensive defender numbers aren't very important. You don't need points because your job is to stop them from scoring so Murray is never going to tear apart the score sheet. He might have been on the ice for a lot of gials against last year but Nuti had a turnover problem innhisnown zone and gave up some.easy as goals. It was a learning year for him. But how can you tell that the coaches didn't blame Murray for that? They constantly played him in all the most important defensive situations without hesitation.

I get the outsider hate for Murray because he is in Columbus so nobody cared enough to watch before this year and even with some people paying a little attention they don't know much about anyone other then Jones and Werenski and to them those are the only players with value and even they don't get the credit they deserve. According to some fans Werenski isn't close in value to Eichel it would be ++. So that being said it's easy to see outsiders have 0 clue and say it's only because he was picked high and never shown top pairing play... even though he played top pairing every season at some point his entire career including this year. But some of our own fans not only don't believe he is a 2/3 top4 D but they think he is barely a #6... one going as far as saying an AHL caliber player? Why does he get hate within our own fans. I get not feeling a player is a certain caliber and respectfully disagreeing. I get not liking a player and explaining why you dont like him personally but saying they are good or even saying what's wrong with their play. But I've never seen any fans of any team talk about a players character, skill, potential, health, etc... it's not only weird coming from our own fan base but some of the stuff said to me is just disgusting to see someone who claims to be a fan of the team say about a guy who has only been loyal to the team and done nothing to deserve the vitriol. I guess my question is why are some of our own fans so against and hateful towards Murray?

 

[Cowumbus]

Chicago has 1 defenseman right now in Keith so you might as well stick your best 2 together and let the rest try and play. When you have 5 guys who are top 3 capable you factor in skill and chemistry because it would be completely and utterly ****ing ******** to be so (blanking on the word here... I'm trying to think of a word that describes wasting talent by stacking 2 and over playing them instead of spreading out the over abundance of talent to get more... figured out the word right now) inefficient. If you play 2 top pairing caliber guys 30 minutes and wear them down while your 2nd pair is also top pair caliber and only playing 15... you are wasting talent. The other pair is going to be less efficient in those extra 7 or so minutes you could give the 2nd pair that is just as effective. On a team like Chicago it ok because even tired Keith would be more effective then...TVR I cant even think of whatever they have left there. Look at Jones and Murray in 15-16 for all you need to know about Murray. Look at the world cup.


Look at Jones and Werenskis numbers last year. Easily could be considered the best pair in the entire league. 1 was a Calder finalist the other was an all-star and both I think got Norris votes I think 1 each ish if I remember seeing the voting right. Johnson and Savard were widely regarded as on of the best if not THE best shut down pairing in the league last year. I heard it from our broadcast team, the opponents broadcast team, neutral broadcasters when on the national TV games, and in the playoffs. It was constantly referenced and they always showed graphics indicating how little that pair was scored against and they often showed their +/- ... IMPORTANT SIDE NOTE because advanced stats people look down on that number so much and say how unimportant that is BUT for 2 defenseman who don't necessarily score much and play 0 PP time but both got a good amount of PK time for them to have ^+30 for both of them at least late into the season I dont know the final numbers that is prettt ****ing telling of just how good they were defensively and how important their chemistry is together.

So over those 2 pairs why would you force Murray up there just because he is a 2/3D? Does he or management need to prove something? Sometimes you can have a luxury like Murray and be so incredibly deep you can use your 2nd best shut down and maybe the highest IQ defender on the team to slowly bring in a rookie who never played on NA ice. For a defensive defender numbers aren't very important. You don't need points because your job is to stop them from scoring so Murray is never going to tear apart the score sheet. He might have been on the ice for a lot of gials against last year but Nuti had a turnover problem innhisnown zone and gave up some.easy as goals. It was a learning year for him. But how can you tell that the coaches didn't blame Murray for that? They constantly played him in all the most important defensive situations without hesitation.

I get the outsider hate for Murray because he is in Columbus so nobody cared enough to watch before this year and even with some people paying a little attention they don't know much about anyone other then Jones and Werenski and to them those are the only players with value and even they don't get the credit they deserve. According to some fans Werenski isn't close in value to Eichel it would be ++. So that being said it's easy to see outsiders have 0 clue and say it's only because he was picked high and never shown top pairing play... even though he played top pairing every season at some point his entire career including this year. But some of our own fans not only don't believe he is a 2/3 top4 D but they think he is barely a #6... one going as far as saying an AHL caliber player? Why does he get hate within our own fans. I get not feeling a player is a certain caliber and respectfully disagreeing. I get not liking a player and explaining why you dont like him personally but saying they are good or even saying what's wrong with their play. But I've never seen any fans of any team talk about a players character, skill, potential, health, etc... it's not only weird coming from our own fan base but some of the stuff said to me is just disgusting to see someone who claims to be a fan of the team say about a guy who has only been loyal to the team and done nothing to deserve the vitriol. I guess my question is why are some of our own fans so against and hateful towards Murray?

Not hateful. People are proclaiming him to be a 2/3 with Keith upside and that simply is incorrect based on his play up this point. I would say many of our fans actually over value him. I really don't see anything he has done ON THE ICE to let him be considered as such.

 

[Monk]

Not hateful. People are proclaiming him to be a 2/3 with Keith upside and that simply is incorrect based on his play up this point. I would say many of our fans actually over value him. I really don't see anything he has done ON THE ICE to let him be considered as such.

Recently, no, but he was pretty good a couple years back. He's young. I have hope, but it's certainly tempered.

 

[Viqsi]

Not hateful. People are proclaiming him to be a 2/3 with Keith upside and that simply is incorrect based on his play up this point. I would say many of our fans actually over value him. I really don't see anything he has done ON THE ICE to let him be considered as such.

Most folks are saying he's middle pairing - #3-4 with #2 or possibly #1 upside.

 

[Crede777]

Most folks are saying he's middle pairing - #3-4 with #2 or possibly #1 upside.

Agreed. Also nobody is saying that he's the 1st or 2nd best defenseman on the team. I'd say he's 4th (behind Jones, Werenski, Savard and ahead of Johnson, Nutivaara, and Carlsson). But being the 4th best defenseman on the CBJ is actually high praise given the quality that we have. Jones and Werenski may both be top-30 in the league this coming year. I'd say Savard is top-50. Most teams don't have two guys of that quality let alone 4.

The question isn't "why isn't he on the top pairing with Jones," it's "why isn't he on the 2nd pairing with Savard?" If Tortorella were simply going by the depth chart, Murray should be on the left side of Savard. But two things: First, Johnson has better chemistry with Savard. Second, Johnson isn't good enough to play on the right side of Nutivaara. That means the role goes to Ryan Murray. And because he's playing fewer minutes, on his off-side, next to a rookie defenseman, his stats have suffered.

But that shouldn't be taken to mean Murray is a bottom pairing player. Rather, as Jarmo said in his recent interview with TSN, Murray played significantly in the top-4 in the past. They know he's capable of it.

 

[mikeyp24]

Not hateful. People are proclaiming him to be a 2/3 with Keith upside and that simply is incorrect based on his play up this point. I would say many of our fans actually over value him. I really don't see anything he has done ON THE ICE to let him be considered as such.

No one on this board has ever said Keith upside that I have seen? Maybe the year he was drafted or the year after that but certainly not recently over the past 2 or 3 years. And to say he is a 2/3 is actually accurate based on playing #2 all last year and starting as a 2 until he missed a game and Werenski took over. Most fans have him on the 2nd pair which would make him the 3 and he plays 2 at the end of the game and we protect the lead. I don't see how that's crazy to call him what he actually plays.

And what has he done off the ice that anyone brags about. You emphasised on the ice... But what has he done off the ice that makes on the ice the important part. On the ice he just plays steady defense when healthy. He was a stud every chance he has had when playing with Jones and he was great in a role sheltering Nuti. What has he done on the ice to anger you so much?

 

[Mayor Bee]

Not hateful. People are proclaiming him to be a 2/3 with Keith upside and that simply is incorrect based on his play up this point. I would say many of our fans actually over value him. I really don't see anything he has done ON THE ICE to let him be considered as such.

You can put him on any pairing, in any role, and with anyone (except Savard to this point) and everything will be perfectly fine. That's pretty uncommon and one hell of a luxury to have.

 

[Cowumbus]

How often does a good first pass out of a zone lead to an assist? Literally, if there is just one more pass. Criticizing Murray for points produced when he gets no PP time is ridiculous.

Methot is an apt comparison for right now. Mind you, Methot in those stats is in his prime playing with one of the best defensemen in the world.

Murray has a lot more potential (Duncan Keith upside) where Methot is pretty much his floor.

Nobody on the board says so eh? And he is not the only one.

 

[Cowumbus]

No one on this board has ever said Keith upside that I have seen? Maybe the year he was drafted or the year after that but certainly not recently over the past 2 or 3 years. And to say he is a 2/3 is actually accurate based on playing #2 all last year and starting as a 2 until he missed a game and Werenski took over. Most fans have him on the 2nd pair which would make him the 3 and he plays 2 at the end of the game and we protect the lead. I don't see how that's crazy to call him what he actually plays.

And what has he done off the ice that anyone brags about. You emphasised on the ice... But what has he done off the ice that makes on the ice the important part. On the ice he just plays steady defense when healthy. He was a stud every chance he has had when playing with Jones and he was great in a role sheltering Nuti. What has he done on the ice to anger you so much?

He hasn't done anything off the ice I don't get your point at all.. I am saying his play on the ice has been average.

 

[mikeyp24]

The way you emphasised ON the ice makes it seem like there was something off the ice... just how I read it. Gotta love text being hard to tell intention.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

You can put him on any pairing, in any role, and with anyone (except Savard to this point) and everything will be perfectly fine. That's pretty uncommon and one hell of a luxury to have.

Simply delusional.

Give him top pairing minutes against the toughest competition. Put him on the first power play unit. Give it a shot. No NHL coach would.

This is what Murray cost the CBJ:

You could also rebuild around better: like, say, an entire NHL draft better. According to Aaron Portzline of the Columbus Dispatch, the Islanders offered every single pick they own in exchange for the rights to Murray. That's Nos. 4, 34, 65, 103, 125, 155 and 185, just to move up two spots.

http://deadspin.com/5921077/the-blu...he-islanders-entire-draft-for-their-no-2-pick

I suppose if I were completely tied to denying the failed legacy of Scott Howson, I'd have to keep pumping Murray's (flat) tires. But, I prefer dealing in reality.

Any role, any pairing. The luxury. That's rich

 

[mikeyp24]

He cost us those picks? Do you think maybe if teams thought he was that good at the time we made the wrong pick. Personally at the time as a fan Unwanted Murray and thought Yak was overrated. I also think I remember Galchenyuk having a major knee injury so I wouldn't have went that route even though he was my 3rd favorite top prospect as I considered him American born and I love to have American guys on the team which is to say if I was the GM I would have thought about the deal only because how much I loved Trouba in that draft even though he was from that ****hole up north. But at the time there is no way you could tell Trouba would be slightly better then Murray right now. Lindholm is better now but I wouldn't have guessed that then nor took that risk. Reilly is so ****ing overrated on this board and people like to claim he was a steal or he is one of the top 3 of that draft but in no way would I ever take him if we could change history or trade for him now or sign him as a UFA. If he wasn't a leaf and he was here he'd be **** on even harder then Murray.

And he was given top pairing minutes against the best compitition for plenty of time in plenty of seasons and he showed nothing but ability and competence. He played especially and notably well with Jones basically right from the start. He was given top pair and top defense moments for team NA and he was chosen to do so by a man considered to be one of the best if not the best coach in the league and a man known for having an eye for great defensemen and kmowing the best pairings and times to play them. He did so over hos own player in Reilly, Trouba, Ekblad, etc. Then to start the year they played well but the team did not. After being cheap shot in the head by Keith and missing a game and the team just coincidentally breaking out offensively everywhere when Z and Jones teamed up... He wasn't going to play top line with what was likely the best pair in hockey last year. Savard can only play with JJ at this point while Murray has been able to play with literally anyone ever. He could make prout viable. Jusy.foe some reason Savard hasn't figured out chemistry with other guys yet. And yes that's a huge factor when having 2 NHL quality RHD but 3 NHL quality #2D. You can play any of the LHD players on any pair and not have problems unless it's a minutes thing and it's known JJ is more effective with low 20s minutes instead of 30.

Why would you put Murray on a top PP with the players we have now? It made sense previously when our D was bottom 5 in the league but now with Jones, Z, JJ? Especially playing our style PP which I love with only 1 D it just doesn't make sense. That's like putting Gavrakov on the 1PP. You don't put primarily D minded D on the PP. Better example is top PK but seeing as JJ and Savard were a top 5 D pair last year and needing Jones more so in PP2 and late game shut down situations... along with Murray... You don't put them on top PK. You have to use your mind as to reasons you would or wouldn't play a player in a certain situation. You wouldn't put Werenski and Nuti out there as the first unit on a 5 on 3 with the other teams goalie pulled making it a 6 on 3.

You constantly try and use not playing with Savard or not playing on the top pair over the guy that had the best rookie D season in like 20 years and widely considered top 5 ever when written about in articles. Better then offensive defensemen legends and current players like Orr, Coffey, and Karlson. He's a victem of his situation. I don't get how a guy who played #2/3 D his entire career all of a sudden is AHL caliber to you it is really confusing. The ONLY thing you have been able to use as any type of evidence to support your theory was a fan article and his points... which isn't going to be the stats anyone cares about for a defensive minded shut down player. As Viqsi pointed out... the team is better with him on the ice and kinda obliterated every negative point you ever made ever... so its weird why you hang on this but you attack the front office constantly especially with the best move in team history with the lazy, poor attitude, crybaby, quiter.

 

[Viqsi]

Simply delusional.

Give him top pairing minutes against the toughest competition. Put him on the first power play unit. Give it a shot. No NHL coach would.

This is what Murray cost the CBJ:



http://deadspin.com/5921077/the-blu...he-islanders-entire-draft-for-their-no-2-pick

I suppose if I were completely tied to denying the failed legacy of Scott Howson, I'd have to keep pumping Murray's (flat) tires. But, I prefer dealing in reality.

Any role, any pairing. The luxury. That's rich

Oh, hello. Are you ever going to respond to the "his teammates' scoring improves while he's on the ice" bit, or are you just going to keep repeating "BUT HE SUCKS" over and over?

 

[cslebn]

Simply delusional.

Give him top pairing minutes against the toughest competition. Put him on the first power play unit. Give it a shot. No NHL coach would.

This is what Murray cost the CBJ:



http://deadspin.com/5921077/the-blu...he-islanders-entire-draft-for-their-no-2-pick

I suppose if I were completely tied to denying the failed legacy of Scott Howson, I'd have to keep pumping Murray's (flat) tires. But, I prefer dealing in reality.

Any role, any pairing. The luxury. That's rich

Because #4 isn't an epic bust named Griffin Reinhart

 

[CBJx614]

Simply delusional.

Give him top pairing minutes against the toughest competition. Put him on the first power play unit. Give it a shot. No NHL coach would.

Funny, the two seasons Murray scored over 20 pts, he was on the PP and both seasons almost half of his points were on the PP.

It's not Murrays fault we have better options.

Zach is a better offensive defenseman, Seth is a better offensive defenseman. And we run a winger on the opposite point for the PP because we have too many skilled wingers. There's just no room for him on the PP..

 

[Cowumbus]

Oh, hello. Are you ever going to respond to the "his teammates' scoring improves while he's on the ice" bit, or are you just going to keep repeating "BUT HE SUCKS" over and over?

I just don't find this enough evidence to proclaim he is a 3D with 1D upside.

 

[Xoggz22]

I just don't find this enough evidence to proclaim he is a 3D with 1D upside.

I believe the discussion was he could ride shotgun on the top pair, not 1D upside. Similar to Methot. Methot was never flashy, scored few points but was vital to the success of Karlsson - one of the best.

I don't think that's a stretch if you watch Murray play and look at his historical circumstances for playing time and position. I think too much is being made of his "down" year last year given he played on the RHD with Rookies (never playing in NA let alone the NHL - Nuti). I see that as a testament to his game. But hey, I'm probably just another homer.