Ryan Johansen II (contract etc)

[EspenK]

It's news to me if Joey's camp has come down from 7 to 6.

Fixed it for you. That's the big if. Who did he get the info from if no one is talking? Hopefully he's right and then they can start to get it done at 5-5.5.

 

[EDM]

While Joey may be "entitled" to seek the most compensation possible, when does 'entitlement" become stupidity. There is not a snow ball's chance in hell he is going to get $7 million from the Jackets, or anyone else for that matter. Not much of a chance he would get $6 million. So how about realistically negotiating in good faith in a rational range that could get him as much as $ 5 million per year. It is not that Joey is not "entitled" to seek as much compensation as possible. it is the foolhardiness of not knowing when the game is over. it is time for Joey's camp to get down to business and be realistic. Get it done and get to camp.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

While Joey may be "entitled" to seek the most compensation possible, when does 'entitlement" become stupidity. There is not a snow ball's chance in hell he is going to get $7 million from the Jackets, or anyone else for that matter. Not much of a chance he would get $6 million. So how about realistically negotiating in good faith in a rational range that could get him as much as $ 5 million per year. It is not that Joey is not "entitled" to seek as much compensation as possible. it is the foolhardiness of not knowing when the game is over. it is time for Joey's camp to get down to business and be realistic. Get it done and get to camp.

You do know professional sports are a business right? Now you are accusing his agent of bad faith negotiations? What's the view like from that high horse?

 

[Sore Loser]

You do know professional sports are a business right? Now you are accusing his agent of bad faith negotiations? What's the view like from that high horse?

Can't be much different from the view wherever you are.

We're debating about an agent who has a history of tough negotiations (Overhardt). Anything is possible, and frankly, do you know any differently?

 

[db2011]

It keeps being said because it's very relevant. He was on the verge of being called a bust before this season. The NHL history is full of players that had one good year. Brassard and Mason were both paid on expectation and never earned their contract after. Why do we want to risk getting burned again, plus set an example for the future youngsters? Would it be a good thing for the prospects to see a guy have one good year, pout, mouth off to the press, play immature hold out games only to get his way and get big $$$? I think that would be a very dangerous precedent to set. I think the longer Johansen holds out, the more he hurts his value when this is finally settled. Joey is getting extremely bad advice from an agent who is known for this dumb tactic. It hurts his client and the team he plays for. With the absence of an offer sheet, Joey will come to the table and negotiate in a reasonable fashion, or he won't play in the NHL. I don't see teams standing in line to offer sheet him, so it's reasonable to assume that other teams have the same reservations as the CBJ management.

I would be on board with you if Joey's second season was a real one and not a season that was so loaded with asterisks. Like if he'd had a full training camp and full season, new coach or not. But it was the season after his rookie campaign and it was one full of adversity for all the guys. But like the rest of the team that year, I feel that if the season had gone all 82 games, Joey would have done a lot better (and we would have made the playoffs).

I keep coming to a game against San Jose, late in the year, when the Jackets were en fuego. Joey lifted the stick of a Sharks player in the offensive zone, Umberger got the puck and passed it to Joey who wristed the winner. Beautiful goal, and not out of place in his second half performance that season.

The "one good season" line is just a rhetorical argument that shuts off thinking about the particulars of Joey's 3 unique years here. You can stick to it, but there are better reflections of his development in the NHL.

 

[EspenK]

I would be on board with you if Joey's second season was a real one and not a season that was so loaded with asterisks. Like if he'd had a full training camp and full season, new coach or not. But it was the season after his rookie campaign and it was one full of adversity for all the guys. But like the rest of the team that year, I feel that if the season had gone all 82 games, Joey would have done a lot better (and we would have made the playoffs).

I keep coming to a game against San Jose, late in the year, when the Jackets were en fuego. Joey lifted the stick of a Sharks player in the offensive zone, Umberger got the puck and passed it to Joey who wristed the winner. Beautiful goal, and not out of place in his second half performance that season.

The "one good season" line is just a rhetorical argument that shuts off thinking about the particulars of Joey's 3 unique years here. You can stick to it, but there are better reflections of his development in the NHL.

Is it any more rhetorical than saying the second year shouldn't count?

Strictly from a bottom line perspective he's had one pretty good year.

 

[EDM]

The plain simple fact is Jackets are not gong to pay Joey 6 or & million. Period. At what time does realism enter the room. He HAD a chance to get close to $5 million which would have been an extraordinary contract for a 22 year old player who has had "one good but not great season". Of if it is "just business" , then get down to the business of getting it resolved. Everything objective metric I have read on this site and elsewhere supports a contract in the range the Jackets offered. The only thing that supports Joey's position is wild arsed subjective speculation about his "potential" based upon his performance this past season. Can he be blamed for adopting a posture based upon that speculation? No. But the Jackets clearly did not bite. Now it is time to "do business" and get a reasonable contract completed. If Joey does not do that. It is on Joey. And if his antics disrupt in any way a good start for this team he should be justifiably condemned. That marker has not come to pass yet. Hopefully it will not.

 

[Halfboard]

The plain simple fact is Jackets are not gong to pay Joey 6 or & million. Period. At what time does realism enter the room. He HAD a chance to get close to $5 million which would have been an extraordinary contract for a 22 year old player who has had "one good but not great season". Of if it is "just business" , then get down to the business of getting it resolved. Everything objective metric I have read on this site and elsewhere supports a contract in the range the Jackets offered. The only thing that supports Joey's position is wild arsed subjective speculation about his "potential" based upon his performance this past season. Can he be blamed for adopting a posture based upon that speculation? No. But the Jackets clearly did not bite. Now it is time to "do business" and get a reasonable contract completed. If Joey does not do that. It is on Joey. And if his antics disrupt in any way a good start for this team he should be justifiably condemned. That marker has not come to pass yet. Hopefully it will not.

Perfect summation on this. It's on Joey (and/or his agent).

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

The only thing that supports Joey's position is wild arsed subjective speculation about his "potential" based upon his performance this past season. Can he be blamed for adopting a posture based upon that speculation? No. But the Jackets clearly did not bite. Now it is time to "do business" and get a reasonable contract completed. If Joey does not do that. It is on Joey. And if his antics disrupt in any way a good start for this team he should be justifiably condemned. That marker has not come to pass yet. Hopefully it will not.

What exactly are these "antics" you speak of?

It's on both Joey's agent and Zito to work together to find a common ground and get a deal done that both sides are comfortable with. He's training hard and staying ready and doing his part. It's not on Joey's agent to accept a Sh*** lowball offer of $3.5 million just to appease EDM who apparently thinks last season was a fluke and would prefer a top line centered by Derek Mackenzie or Mark Letestu apparently.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

Can't be much different from the view wherever you are.

We're debating about an agent who has a history of tough negotiations (Overhardt). Anything is possible, and frankly, do you know any differently?

right, so if it's an agent who has that history with all his clients, then we just know that's his agent's style - and NOT Joey being an "entitled diva" which is the crazy narrative being pushed here.

 

[KJ Dangler]

What exactly are these "antics" you speak of?

It's on both Joey's agent and Zito to work together to find a common ground and get a deal done that both sides are comfortable with. He's training hard and staying ready and doing his part. It's not on Joey's agent to accept a Sh*** lowball offer of $3.5 million just to appease EDM who apparently thinks last season was a fluke and would prefer a top line centered by Derek Mackenzie or Mark Letestu apparently.

How is it a low ball offer when we have pointed out players with better , and more consistent stats, signing a bridge for around that price ? Pretty sure Stephan was pointed out a few post ago. At this point , I'll be shocked if he gets over 4.5. Hes lost momentum in the negotition, and many fans will not side with him as your seeing on this board. Regardless of your love affair for the guy, a contract of 7 mill, for one year production would be devastating for the jackets going forward. Fortunately we have a gm/pres, that is looking at the big picture, and has experience. That doesnt mean we want a team of Derek Mac, or Letestu as our center.

 

[cbjfaninmo]

It's on both Joey's agent and Zito to work together to find a common ground and get a deal done that both sides are comfortable with.

Yep. It takes two to dance. Can't blame either side at this point.

 

[pete goegan]

What exactly are these "antics" you speak of?

It's on both Joey's agent and Zito to work together to find a common ground and get a deal done that both sides are comfortable with. He's training hard and staying ready and doing his part. It's not on Joey's agent to accept a Sh*** lowball offer of $3.5 million just to appease EDM who apparently thinks last season was a fluke and would prefer a top line centered by Derek Mackenzie or Mark Letestu apparently.

What I, for one, would prefer is to see at least two posts in a row from you that do not insult, demean, belittle, and/or mischaracterize whomever you're disputing at that particular instant. If your positions can't stand on their own merits, without the personal attacks, perhaps you should either rephrase them or rethink them, altogether.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

If this...

It's on both Joey's agent and Zito to work together to find a common ground and get a deal done that both sides are comfortable with.

...then this...

It's not on Joey's agent to accept a Sh*** lowball offer of $3.5 million

...but also it's incumbent on the FO not to accept a ****** "highball" offer from a player's agent just to appease that portion of the fanbase that thinks the team would fall apart without their new favorite player.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

How is it a low ball offer when we have pointed out players with better , and more consistent stats, signing a bridge for around that price ? Pretty sure Stephan was pointed out a few post ago. At this point , I'll be shocked if he gets over 4.5. Hes lost momentum in the negotition, and many fans will not side with him as your seeing on this board. Regardless of your love affair for the guy, a contract of 7 mill, for one year production would be devastating for the jackets going forward. Fortunately we have a gm/pres, that is looking at the big picture, and has experience. That doesnt mean we want a team of Derek Mac, or Letestu as our center.

"he's lost momentum" and "many fans will not side with him?"

a complete fabrication by you. ground control to major tom...

and to say that "7 mill for one year production would be devastating" is also more space cadet prophecy, as one glance at the blue jackets capgeek shows lots of flexibility and since we are talking about a 2-year term, it literally CAN'T be devastating because it's such a short term commitment.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

What I, for one, would prefer is to see at least two posts in a row from you that do not insult, demean, belittle, and/or mischaracterize whomever you're disputing at that particular instant. If your positions can't stand on their own merits, without the personal attacks, perhaps you should either rephrase them or rethink them, altogether.

I am the one speaking out against the insulting, demeaning, and belittling of our best offensive player!

 

[Doug19]

Why do you guys even give him the satisfaction of replying to him?

 

[KJ Dangler]

"he's lost momentum" and "many fans will not side with him?"

a complete fabrication by you. ground control to major tom...

and to say that "7 mill for one year production would be devastating" is also more space cadet prophecy, as one glance at the blue jackets capgeek shows lots of flexibility and since we are talking about a 2-year term, it literally CAN'T be devastating because it's such a short term commitment.

A complete fabrication by me ? Are you reading the responses. If he misses one day of camp because of his outrageous demands, he not only will hurt the fans, but the locker room as well. Seems pointless to discuss with you, its easy to spend other peoples money. However there is this thing called precedent . And Jarmo sure as heck wont pay someone 7 mill for being invisible for 2 years, and deciding to apply himself going into a contract year.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

A complete fabrication by me ? Are you reading the responses. If he misses one day of camp because of his outrageous demands, he not only will hurt the fans, but the locker room as well. Seems pointless to discuss with you, its easy to spend other peoples money. However there is this thing called precedent . And Jarmo sure as heck wont pay someone 7 mill for being invisible for 2 years, and deciding to apply himself going into a contract year.

The only thing that can hurt the locker room is giving huge contracts to UFAs like glass-bodied Nathan Horton while not taking care of the home grown talent who actually produces.

This new contract isn't paying for the production Joey had as a 19 and 20 year old, this contract is paying for the production Joey will have as a 22-24 year old.

Those years where he was "invisible" he was on an entry level, 2 way contract, which was fitting for a young player not yet consistently producing.

 

[KJ Dangler]

The only thing that can hurt the locker room is giving huge contracts to UFAs like glass-bodied Nathan Horton while not taking care of the home grown talent who actually produces.

This new contract isn't paying for the production Joey had as a 19 and 20 year old, this contract is paying for the production Joey will have as a 22-24 year old.

Those years where he was "invisible" he was on an entry level, 2 way contract, which was fitting for a young player not yet consistently producing.

Glass bodied Nathan Horton .

So what if Joey reverts back to year 1 or 2 production ? You realize there have been many nhl players that have a career year, and never reach that point again. Would there be resentment in the room from the actual leaders, Johnson, Dubinsky, Horton, Bob, that he was given something he didnt earn, something they didnt have the benefit of ?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Glass bodied Nathan Horton .

So what if Joey reverts back to year 1 or 2 production ? You realize there have been many nhl players that have a career year, and never reach that point again. Would there be resentment in the room from the actual leaders, Johnson, Dubinsky, Horton, Bob, that he was given something he didnt earn, something they didnt have the benefit of ?

This is the equivalent of expecting a senior quarterback (pick the level) who had a great junior year to revert to the production levels of his freshman and sophomore years when he didn't produce well at all. Young players (in all sports) develop physically and mentally and learn to adapt to higher levels. It takes time. And when the light bulb goes on (high performance), the player usually doesn't revert to previous, much lower levels of performance.

Do you really think that there is any reasonable probability that Johansen will score .33 points per game-his approximate scoring levels for years 1 and 2- ever again?

What would be your assessment of the chances of Johansen scoring less than 50 points (assuming he's healthy) this year? 25%? 50%?

I'd put it in the less than 10% category. In other words, don't worry about it. It's not gonna happen.

If you're worried about "resentment levels", then you had best put Horton at the top of the list if he has another completely worthless season.

Johansen has earned a $5.5 million per year 6 year deal based on last year's performance and the productivity projections one reasonably can infer from last season. Any reasonable person would put his production level over the next 6 years at a 60 point average. Minimum. Well worthy of the salary and term mentioned for a 22 year old former 4th overall pick who was 11th in goals scored in the entire NHL last season and who is the best forward on the team by miles.

 

[KJ Dangler]

This is the equivalent of expecting a senior quarterback (pick the level) who had a great junior year to revert to the production levels of his freshman and sophomore years when he didn't produce well at all. Young players (in all sports) develop physically and mentally and learn to adapt to higher levels. It takes time. And when the light bulb goes on (high performance), the player usually doesn't revert to previous, much lower levels of performance.

Do you really think that there is any reasonable probability that Johansen will score .33 points per game-his approximate scoring levels for years 1 and 2- ever again?

What would be your assessment of the chances of Johansen scoring less than 50 points (assuming he's healthy) this year? 25%? 50%?

I'd put it in the less than 10% category. In other words, don't worry about it. It's not gonna happen.

If you're worried about "resentment levels", then you had best put Horton at the top of the list if he has another completely worthless season.

Johansen has earned a $5.5 million per year 6 year deal based on last year's performance and the productivity projections one reasonably can infer from last season. Any reasonable person would put his production level over the next 6 years at a 60 point average. Minimum. Well worthy of the salary and term mentioned for a 22 year old former 4th overall pick who was 11th in goals scored in the entire NHL last season and who is the best forward on the team by miles.

You ever have a shoulder issue, or have surgery on your shoulder ? We just saw Braxton Miller try to come back to early from a torn labrum, now his recovery time is 9-12 months. I think based on Hortons TRACK RECORD, yes we can look at his body of work and realize that he probably wasnt fully healthy with the shoulder injury. Your insane if you think one season production earns a 6 yr 5.5 mill contract. The league doesnt work that way unless you want to look at Edmonton as an example. And in the past we have been burned by Steve Masons one year wonder, which 4 years later he finally seems to have stabalized. Derek Brassards contract, which he had more production than Johan did, although the should injury could come into play. We had Umbergers contract that many thought we would have to amnesty him. Take Johans benching in the ahl a year ago, out of the equation, and rumors of motivation issues out of the equation, and maybe you could look at Johan's one year. But we cant, and it did happen. I'll be suprised if he gets over 4.5 mill. Initially I thought 5 thru 5.5 but when I started seeing other players comparables, and Stephans production, that number has come down, in my mind.

 

[IHeartZherdev*]

YTake Johans benching in the ahl a year ago, out of the equation, and rumors of motivation issues out of the equation, and maybe you could look at Johan's one year. But we cant, and it did happen.

Just curious, how long do you plan on holding "AHL Benching-gate" against Joey? I could see being worried about it if he didn't just play a full NHL season of clutch, dominant play including in the playoffs.

Also, you keeping harping on "rumors of motivation issues" but have nothing substantial to base that on. One sentence in a Porty column?

Joey seemed pretty motivated all of last season, and if you watched his ice bucket challenge video, he looks completely jacked, so he's pretty clearly keeping up his workouts and he crushed his conditioning tests. so...

 

[EDM]

I don't think Joey was "clutch" at all in the series against the Pens. "Average" is a word that comes to mind.

 

[EDM]

A sentence in Porty's column would be more of a basis than anything you have advanced.