RW Jake Virtanen - Calgary Hitmen, WHL (2014, 6th overall, Vancouver)

[Captain Clutch]

Virtanen is not all about scoring, he protected teammates, he hit like a truck, and had a solid forecheck.

Also look at his age, he was almost eligible for the draft THIS year.

Its hard not to like Virtanen's tools, he's like the baseball equivalent of a 4 tool player. Speed, strength, shot/goal scoring ability, toughness etc. I don't believe he'll ever be much of a playmaker other than those plays he creates through speed but with a really good center this guy could be devastating in the NHL.

 

[The Iron Goalie]

Its hard not to like Virtanen's tools, he's like the baseball equivalent of a 4 tool player. Speed, strength, shot/goal scoring ability, toughness etc. I don't believe he'll ever be much of a playmaker other than those plays he creates through speed but with a really good center this guy could be devastating in the NHL.

I agree. However he done show he can make plays on the PP, but as you saif at even strength he drives the net hard and passing is his second opition.

 

[Whileee]

I know nothing about Kane but the perception (at least around here and on the NHL Network) is that he is underperforming his potential. Do you agree with that and if so what do you think the issue is if not the reasons you dismissed? Just curious to know....

I think that perhaps his offensive potential was over-rated. He has great speed and physical capabilities, but he lacks some hockey sense and creativity with the puck. In Winnipeg, he's generally been paired with very mediocre line-mates due to a lack of depth, especially at center. That has constrained his production somewhat. The past couple of years he's been held back a bit by freak injuries (infected cut on his hand from a fight, broken bone in his foot from a shot-block, knee ligament strain from being run into by his own line-mate).

Still, I think he's a steady 25-30 goal scorer who plays a very effective game as a fast, aggressive, physical winger. He contributes to a very strong possession game (tilts the ice) because he is so aggressive with the puck and on the puck. He fits perfectly into the Jets' system since he uses his speed and strength to pressure the opposition all over the ice.

So, I think that the expectations of Jets fans have changed a bit for Kane. He might not be among the league's scoring leaders, but he is very important to what makes the Jets successful in their system. He also can create offense without much help from skilled linemates.

I wouldn't be surprised if he pops 35+ goals a year now and again, but it will need to be in the right circumstance.

What I really disagree with is people who take stories about his off-ice activities (basically just the occasional social media comment or picture) and translate that to his attitude as a player on the ice. He is a very hard-working and responsible player for the Jets on the ice, and his coach raves about his off-season and practice work habits and fitness.

 

[CanaFan]

Pääjärvi had 12 goals as a 18-year-old in the Swedish Elite. And 5 goals at the adult World Champioships in 9 games. Virtanen has averages 0.5 goals per game in a junior league.

And Corey Perry put up 0.37 GPG in a junior league his draft year. What does that tell you about relying on hockeycard stats and false belief in the 'superiority' of Men's leagues when trying to project players 10 years into the future? It's part of the story, but it's not the entire story.

 

[Jack DiBiase]

And Corey Perry put up 0.37 GPG in a junior league his draft year. What does that tell you about relying on hockeycard stats and false belief in the 'superiority' of Men's leagues when trying to project players 10 years into the future? It's part of the story, but it's not the entire story.

Could you actually read the entire conversation we had and provide some actual information (about Virtanen). I was only replying to the guy, who said Pääjärvi couldn't score goals. Which he obviously could do.

I haven't seen much of Virtanen outside the IIHF games, so my view is limited, that's why I'm asking you guys. In my limited viewing of him, he looks a lot like Pääjärvi did as a junior-ager. Plus they share the Finnish connection. To me he just seems like one of those guys with amazing tools, but mediocre toolboxes.

 

[GetFocht]

Apparently Virtanen has a mediocre toolbox at the age of 18 years old. Might as well call him a bust and move on.

 

[Jack DiBiase]

Apparently Virtanen has a mediocre toolbox at the age of 18 years old. Might as well call him a bust and move on.

Hockey IQ usually doesn't improve much after a player turns 18 though.

 

[GetFocht]

Hockey IQ usually doesn't improve much after a player turns 18 though.

So your limited viewing has determined that Virtanen has a low hockey IQ.

While the GM of the Hitmen said his hockey IQ and sense is one of his best attributes:http://www.whl.ca/article/nhl-draft-prospect-profile-jake-virtanen

He's also very confident and intelligent off the ice, excelled in his interviews at the combine.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Hockey IQ usually doesn't improve much after a player turns 18 though.

Yes it does. Experience and practice will improve your ability to read situations.

Datsyuk has one of the highest offensive and defensive iq in the game, so why wasn't he a top pick?

Overall most people have a certain range and limit, but you would be surprised how much smarter regular nhlers are compared to prospects.

 

[Jack DiBiase]

So your limited viewing has determined that Virtanen has a low hockey IQ.

While the GM of the Hitmen said his hockey IQ and sense is one of his best attributes:http://www.whl.ca/article/nhl-draft-prospect-profile-jake-virtanen

He's also very confident and intelligent off the ice, excelled in his interviews at the combine.

You as a Canucks fan (apparently) are almost as reliable as the GM of a certain player's team. And please don't put words in my mouth (of text, whatever), I said 'mediocre', not 'low' IQ. He just seems like the player, who might have trouble at the next level. His game just seems to straightforward and not creative enough for me. Kind of similar difficulties as we saw with Pääjärvi.

But still, thanks for the info! I'm only here to gather information about the player. I'm not trying to downplay his ablilites. Like I said, I haven't seen a whole lot about him.

Oh, and I hope he does well in his career. He is still a Finn in my book.

 

[Fulham]

in Calgary I've watched him play for the Hitmen during the last few years,

He is By far the Hitmens best player, and was all of last season as well. He does not get spoon fed PP time, or Play with the best line mates, His ice time (which I'm aware of isn't officially recorded for the CHL) would be well below most others drafted around him.

The Hitmen Roll 4 lines and don't stack their first line with their 3 best offensive players, and play them 20+ min a game like most other teams do in the CHL.

Virtanen's floor is David Booth Pre-Concussion

 

[Jack DiBiase]

Yes it does. Experience and practice will improve your ability to read situations.

Datsyuk has one of the highest offensive and defensive iq in the game, so why wasn't he a top pick?

Overall most people have a certain range and limit, but you would be surprised how much smarter regular nhlers are compared to prospects.

Oh, wow, you are actually using Datsuyk as the basis of your argument. You do realize that saying "because Datsuyk" would work in every argument ever the prospect section, if it was that easy. Not to mention it was almost 20 years ago.

But yeah, I admit that player can learn plays etc. and defenceman can learn to cover the zone better etc. However, usually the scouts can tell if the 18 year old has the vision of he don't. I don't remember any cases where the alleged "18-year-old no toolbox guy" suddenly learns good hockey sense.

 

[CanaFan]

Could you actually read the entire conversation we had and provide some actual information (about Virtanen). I was only replying to the guy, who said Pääjärvi couldn't score goals. Which he obviously could do.

I haven't seen much of Virtanen outside the IIHF games, so my view is limited, that's why I'm asking you guys. In my limited viewing of him, he looks a lot like Pääjärvi did as a junior-ager. Plus they share the Finnish connection. To me he just seems like one of those guys with amazing tools, but mediocre toolboxes.

Fair point and I did only catch the last part of the conversation, so if I missed more of the context then that's my bad. My only point in the response is that looking at the CHL and dismissing it as "a junior league" and then inflating the value of 12 goals "in a men's league" is a poor form of analysis. I generally disagree with the common belief that players who can play against men at 18 are somehow 'ahead' of those who play against 17-20 year olds. It may show some initial advantage in physical skills by being able to play against older and stronger players, but in the long run there are plenty of players who have put up "so-so" stats in juniors that turn out better than those who put up "impressive" stats in KHL/SHL/FEL. The actual discussion of MPS wasn't my point so I apologize for jumping in on that.

 

[Jack DiBiase]

Virtanen's floor is David Booth Pre-Concussion

So his floor is 30+30, 60 point player? What is his ceiling then, Ovechkin?

 

[NarcoPolo]

So his floor is 30+30, 60 point player? What is his ceiling then, Ovechkin?

I'd say he'll be a player in between Kane and Torres's ability, personally. I've seen him quite a bit and he does have the tools but he's very much a straight line player. Not a big fan though, has tunnel vision, gets a little lost and doesn't always know where to be in the offensive zone.

 

[Jack DiBiase]

Fair point and I did only catch the last part of the conversation, so if I missed more of the context then that's my bad. My only point in the response is that looking at the CHL and dismissing it as "a junior league" and then inflating the value of 12 goals "in a men's league" is a poor form of analysis. I generally disagree with the common belief that players who can play against men at 18 are somehow 'ahead' of those who play against 17-20 year olds. It may show some initial advantage in physical skills by being able to play against older and stronger players, but in the long run there are plenty of players who have put up "so-so" stats in juniors that turn out better than those who put up "impressive" stats in KHL/SHL/FEL. The actual discussion of MPS wasn't my point so I apologize for jumping in on that.

That's a fair argument you got there. I'm not arguing with that at all. I'm also aware that us Europeans tend to use that "playing against men" as an argument way too much, but as I explained, it wasn't my point here. Also anyway you put it, it always a generalization when someone is saying where is the best league of nation as a development for a player at certain ages. Every player is an individual and their development is different. What works for some, doesn't work for another.

 

[Fulham]

So his floor is 30+30, 60 point player? What is his ceiling then, Ovechkin?

Booth Had one 30+30 season that was Booths Peak not his Average, 20+20 is what David Booth has produced in the Seasons he hasn't been Hurt, even if you pro rate his seasons with the canucks he was essentially a 20-20 player.

 

[Jack DiBiase]

Booth Had one 30+30 season that was Booths Peak not his Average, 20+20 is what David Booth has produced in the Seasons he hasn't been Hurt, even if you pro rate his seasons with the canucks he was essentially a 20-20 player.

Just after the 30-30 season he had the first concussion. After that he became the 20-20 player and then got another concussion and that was it. But that's going way off topic.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Hockey IQ usually doesn't improve much after a player turns 18 though.

Yes it does. Experience and practice will improve your ability to read situations.

Datsyuk has one of the highest offensive and defensive iq in the game, so why wasn't he a top pick?

Overall most people have a certain range and limit, but you would be surprised how much smarter regular nhlers are compared to prospects.

 

[arsmaster*]

Could you actually read the entire conversation we had and provide some actual information (about Virtanen). I was only replying to the guy, who said Pääjärvi couldn't score goals. Which he obviously could do.

I haven't seen much of Virtanen outside the IIHF games, so my view is limited, that's why I'm asking you guys. In my limited viewing of him, he looks a lot like Pääjärvi did as a junior-ager. Plus they share the Finnish connection. To me he just seems like one of those guys with amazing tools, but mediocre toolboxes.

Paajarvi's biggest criticism rising through levels was his lack of finish. Pointing out his resume in short tourneys and in the SHL (where our very own Niklas Jensen scored goals as a 19 year old at the level of players like Naslund, Sedin and Hornqvist only to struggle in the AHL).

I don't think it's an unreasonable stylistic comp, but Jake plays more of a power game.

I think the ability to shoot the puck and the power game is a pretty big distinguishing factor.

 

[arsmaster*]

in Calgary I've watched him play for the Hitmen during the last few years,

He is By far the Hitmens best player, and was all of last season as well. He does not get spoon fed PP time, or Play with the best line mates, His ice time (which I'm aware of isn't officially recorded for the CHL) would be well below most others drafted around him.

The Hitmen Roll 4 lines and don't stack their first line with their 3 best offensive players, and play them 20+ min a game like most other teams do in the CHL.

Virtanen's floor is David Booth Pre-Concussion

This is true. Last night (scored a one timer from Stamkos' spot on the PP) he was playing on the 3rd line with Eliot Peterson and Pavel Karnaukov.

It's a fairly deep team that roles its lines. Virtanen was all over the ice last night, but his shots been off a bit since returning from injury. Missing the net a lot, but he gets into spots so easily at this level he probably had 12+ attempts at goal.

I wouldn't say he has the floor of 30 goals and 70 points though. That's probably very near his ceiling. IMO his floor is the Raffi Torres we had in Vancouver. Solid 3rd liner with 15+ goal upside, and the ability to take star players out of the game with hard hits.

 

[Whileee]

This is true. Last night (scored a one timer from Stamkos' spot on the PP) he was playing on the 3rd line with Eliot Peterson and Pavel Karnaukov.

It's a fairly deep team that roles its lines. Virtanen was all over the ice last night, but his shots been off a bit since returning from injury. Missing the net a lot, but he gets into spots so easily at this level he probably had 12+ attempts at goal.

I wouldn't say he has the floor of 30 goals and 70 points though. That's probably very near his ceiling. IMO his floor is the Raffi Torres we had in Vancouver. Solid 3rd liner with 15+ goal upside, and the ability to take star players out of the game with hard hits.

Can never have too many of those guys. Just what you want from a #6 overall!

 

[arsmaster*]

Can never have too many of those guys. Just what you want from a #6 overall!

That was his floor. What would you say is the floor for the forward prospects drafted with 5 picks of Jake? I'd say they're pretty much top 6 or bust prospects.

There is certainly value in taking the 'safe' or higher floored player.

There is no perfect science to the draft. I hope they all reach their ceilings.

 

[JawandaPuck]

New Thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=95350729