Olympics: Russia possibly disqualified from Pyeongchang (UPD: IOC Suspends Team Russia)

sandysan

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Dec 7, 2011
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I don't think many Russians are arguing that no doping went on. The objection is that the allegation that the Government ordered the doping can't be rebutted because Rodchenkov is hiding out under witness protection protocol, and accordingly can't be cross-examined by representatives for the accused. It is just as plausible that he provided masking services on his own initiative, to be a valuable team guy and collect the rewards that could go with such a role. Once accepted under witness protection, his testimony is only valuable if he points the finger at higher ups. Maybe they are guilty, but regardless, WADA and the IOC took his word at face value, resulting in the punishment of all of Russian athletes. That is the objection.

so its all "his word"??? What happened to the 1400 samples that were destroyed AFTER they were requested ? Its easy to claim innocence when you intentionally destroy all of the evidence and then hide behind " where is the body?"

the very samples that could have convicted or exhonorated the accused were DESTROYED by the accused. but I'm sure its just a clerical mistake, and just straight out bad luck.

1400 samples, poof! western conspiracy !!!!!!!!
 
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Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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Who would Rodchenkov be collecting those rewards from if he was the highest guy in the food chain? There's absolutely no reason or reward for him to risk doing this alone. The scheme was also much too elaborate for one guy. For one, it involved the collection of hundreds of clean samples from athletes prior to the Games so they could be swapped out when the competitions began. He would have been one busy fella. Also, WADA and the IOC didn't just take his word for this. They were given the lab's hard drives, spreadsheets and thousands of documents and emails.

Unless he's also a master forger, that had been pretty convincing.

Any number of people outside the Kremlin could feel gratitude to him for his assistance. Many of the coaches make a lot of money off of the athletes that they train, much of it as incentives from the Government for excellence in performance. In no way does that prove a direct link to the Kremlin or the FSB.
 

Macman

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May 15, 2004
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Any number of people outside the Kremlin could feel gratitude to him for his assistance. Many of the coaches make a lot of money off of the athletes that they train, much of it as incentives from the Government for excellence in performance. In no way does that prove a direct link to the Kremlin or the FSB.

If that were true, it would still say a great deal about the level of corruption within Russia sport; that people would actually be so grateful for an out-of-the-blue fixing of positives tests that Rodchenkov would get a cut of the action. Do you discount the possibility that those emails between Rodchenkov and the Sports Ministry are actually real?
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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If that were true, it would still say a great deal about the level of corruption within Russia sport; that people would actually be so grateful for an out-of-the-blue fixing of positives tests that Rodchenkov would get a cut of the action. Do you discount the possibility that those emails between Rodchenkov and the Sports Ministry are actually real?

I am sure the same level of corruption exists in the Canadian ministry of sport. Canada is competing effectively in those sports, and if it is keeping up with other competitors, it couldn't be done without matching the doping that others are engaging in. If Canadian skiers, runners, sprinters, etc., are dirty, someone within the Canadian apparatus performs masking services for their athletes. It may not be any coincidence at all that the leading WADA spokesperson, Dick Pound, is Canadian. If Canadians are competing successfully, then that could not be achieved without matching others with dirty athletes.
 

Macman

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May 15, 2004
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I am sure the same level of corruption exists in the Canadian ministry of sport. Canada is competing effectively in those sports, and if it is keeping up with other competitors, it couldn't be done without matching the doping that others are engaging in. If Canadian skiers, runners, sprinters, etc., are dirty, someone within the Canadian apparatus performs masking services for their athletes. It may not be any coincidence at all that the leading WADA spokesperson, Dick Pound, is Canadian. If Canadians are competing successfully, then that could not be achieved without matching others with dirty athletes.

Russia's so dirty you couldn't possibly keep up with us without being dirty too. :laugh: I have to admit, that's a novel defence. Fact is, Canada has rarely kept up with Russia at the Olympics so I'm not sure what you're talking about. One stripped medal in the history of the Olympics for Canada versus 50 and counting for Russia. I guess we're just better at masking.
 
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Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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so its all "his word"??? What happened to the 1400 samples that were destroyed AFTER they were requested ?

Weren't they destroyed by Rodchenkov? The destruction of the samples is no mystery. The extent of the blame and the complicity of athletes is what's in question.
 

Yakushev72

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Dec 27, 2010
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Russia's so dirty you couldn't possibly keep up with us without being dirty too. :laugh: I have to admit, that's a novel defence. Fact is, Canada has rarely kept up with Russia at the Olympics so I'm not sure what you're talking about. One stripped medal in the history of the Olympics for Canada versus 50 and counting for Russia. I guess we're just better at masking.

It doesn't hurt having Dick Pound in charge of Canada's urine samples. His integrity provides enough cover so that you really don't need to be better at masking. They would never be allowed to check Canadian samples while Pound is at the helm at WADA.
 

mouser

Business of Hockey
Jul 13, 2006
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Weren't they destroyed by Rodchenkov? The destruction of the samples is no mystery. The extent of the blame and the complicity of athletes is what's in question.

Honest question: has the Russian Ministry of Sports or other Russia authority asserted that Rodchenkov orchestrated the destruction of those samples on his own?
 

Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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Honest question: has the Russian Ministry of Sports or other Russia authority asserted that Rodchenkov orchestrated the destruction of those samples on his own?

I don't believe so. They basically acknowledge that wrongdoing happened but reject the accusation of a large scale conspiracy.
 

Jablkon

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May 23, 2014
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It doesn't hurt having Dick Pound in charge of Canada's urine samples. His integrity provides enough cover so that you really don't need to be better at masking. They would never be allowed to check Canadian samples while Pound is at the helm at WADA.
Decision who you test does not rely on any person in that system, not even in this russian case.
 

Macman

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May 15, 2004
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It doesn't hurt having Dick Pound in charge of Canada's urine samples. His integrity provides enough cover so that you really don't need to be better at masking. They would never be allowed to check Canadian samples while Pound is at the helm at WADA.

So Dick Pound is in charge of a Canadian doping conspiracy that has global reach? You really should contact the IOC if you have any proof of that. You know, Canadian athletes compete and are tested outside Canada too, including Sochi. If Canadian athletes are doping on the same scale as Russian athletes, why are we so pathetic in most traditional sports and sports where doping is rampant? Like strength sports, cycling and others? We're great at new sports like curling and synchronized flower arranging, new women's sports in general. If frisbee ever comes to the Olympics, watch out. Until everyone else catches up.

I suspect you're likely embarrassed by what's happened to Russia but don't assume that what happens there happens in many other places. Of course, some Canadian athletes dope but it's nothing on the scale of what has happened in Russia. The sheer numbers of Russians who have been caught doping over the years overwhelms every other country. Statistically that should tell you something. If that happened in Canada, I'd have no doubt we'd pull of the Olympics willingly. We're the kings of apology, self-bloodletting and national inquiries. It's what we do.
 

KrejciMVP

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Jun 30, 2011
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I don't believe so. They basically acknowledge that wrongdoing happened but reject the accusation of a large scale conspiracy.

The amount of fake stories about Russian being retracted by the western media this week and year, hard to believe 1 word of anything they say or do. Just not a credible group.
 

KrejciMVP

Registered User
Jun 30, 2011
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Tampa, Florida
So Dick Pound is in charge of a Canadian doping conspiracy that has global reach? You really should contact the IOC if you have any proof of that. You know, Canadian athletes compete and are tested outside Canada too, including Sochi. If Canadian athletes are doping on the same scale as Russian athletes, why are we so pathetic in most traditional sports and sports where doping is rampant? Like strength sports, cycling and others? We're great at new sports like curling and synchronized flower arranging, new women's sports in general. If frisbee ever comes to the Olympics, watch out. Until everyone else catches up.

I suspect you're likely embarrassed by what's happened to Russia but don't assume that what happens there happens in many other places. Of course, some Canadian athletes dope but it's nothing on the scale of what has happened in Russia. The sheer numbers of Russians who have been caught doping over the years overwhelms every other country. Statistically that should tell you something. If that happened in Canada, I'd have no doubt we'd pull of the Olympics willingly. We're the kings of apology, self-bloodletting and national inquiries. It's what we do.

Embarrassed? Thats what you hope and want I'm sure. I just want to see objectivity and honesty and given the last year, that's not happening.
 

Yakushev72

Registered User
Dec 27, 2010
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So Dick Pound is in charge of a Canadian doping conspiracy that has global reach? You really should contact the IOC if you have any proof of that. You know, Canadian athletes compete and are tested outside Canada too, including Sochi. If Canadian athletes are doping on the same scale as Russian athletes, why are we so pathetic in most traditional sports and sports where doping is rampant? Like strength sports, cycling and others? We're great at new sports like curling and synchronized flower arranging, new women's sports in general. If frisbee ever comes to the Olympics, watch out. Until everyone else catches up.

I suspect you're likely embarrassed by what's happened to Russia but don't assume that what happens there happens in many other places. Of course, some Canadian athletes dope but it's nothing on the scale of what has happened in Russia. The sheer numbers of Russians who have been caught doping over the years overwhelms every other country. Statistically that should tell you something. If that happened in Canada, I'd have no doubt we'd pull of the Olympics willingly. We're the kings of apology, self-bloodletting and national inquiries. It's what we do.

"Apology, self-blood letting and national inquiries?" Sorry, but I'd rather be embarrassed. Despite claims of virgin-like innocence on your end, the sad fact is that there is plenty of doping going on outside of Russia. It is hilarious that after all of the romantic talk about the benefits of living at altitude in East Africa for distance running, it turns out that Kenyans and Ethiopians are just doped! But it continues to be very invigorating to get another good moralistic lecture from high-minded Canadians. That, not hockey, is truly your national sport.

btw, sorry about being "pathetic" in traditional sports. My diagnosis, you guys are either doping too much, or not enough!
 

BalticWarrior

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Apr 28, 2012
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Riga
"Apology, self-blood letting and national inquiries?" Sorry, but I'd rather be embarrassed. Despite claims of virgin-like innocence on your end, the sad fact is that there is plenty of doping going on outside of Russia. It is hilarious that after all of the romantic talk about the benefits of living at altitude in East Africa for distance running, it turns out that Kenyans and Ethiopians are just doped! But it continues to be very invigorating to get another good moralistic lecture from high-minded Canadians. That, not hockey, is truly your national sport.

btw, sorry about being "pathetic" in traditional sports. My diagnosis, you guys are either doping too much, or not enough!

Yeah and noone says there isnt. The difference is only Russia is doing on a STATE WIDE scale.
 

Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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The amount of fake stories about Russian being retracted by the western media this week and year, hard to believe 1 word of anything they say or do. Just not a credible group.

There are many interesting intricacies about the IOC ruling that are not apparent from a light reading of most media reports.

For example Mutko was not banned for masterminding a conspiracy, that is a straight-run doping operation. He was banned rather for much vaguer reasons: that wrongdoing happened under his watch and that he therefore bears responsibility due to poor policing. Which seems fine, but this is different from what has been implied by the Western media.

The IOC is trying to goad the Russian government into accepting blame, but of course they won't because there is no real proof of a wide-scale conspiracy.
 
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BalticWarrior

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Apr 28, 2012
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There are many interesting intricacies about the IOC ruling that are not apparent from a light reading of most media reports.

For example Mutko was not banned for masterminding a conspiracy, that is a straight-run doping operation. He was banned rather for much vaguer reasons: that wrongdoing happened under his watch and that he therefore bears responsibility due to poor policing. Which seems fine, but this is different from what has been implied by the Western media.

The IOC is trying to goad the Russian government into accepting blame, but of course they won't because there is no real proof of a wide-scale conspiracy.

And he had no knowledge of this HUGE scale doping operation? If you believe that, let me introduce you to this one totally legit Nigerian prince...
[MOD]
 
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Macman

Registered User
May 15, 2004
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There are many interesting intricacies about the IOC ruling that are not apparent from a light reading of most media reports.

For example Mutko was not banned for masterminding a conspiracy, that is a straight-run doping operation. He was banned rather for much vaguer reasons: that wrongdoing happened under his watch and that he therefore bears responsibility due to poor policing. Which seems fine, but this is different from what has been implied by the Western media.

The IOC is trying to goad the Russian government into accepting blame, but of course they won't because there is no real proof of a wide-scale conspiracy.

It depends on your definition of "Russian government" and "wide-scale." Is there any proof that Putin and his inner circle knew about this? Absolutely not, but the Sports Ministry is a part of government and there's all kinds of evidence that senior officials there, including the deputy minister, the guy directly below Mutko, knew about and participated in the coverup.

Unless, of course, you don't believe in the authenticity of that evidence.
 

BalticWarrior

Registered User
Apr 28, 2012
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Riga
It depends on your definition of "Russian government" and "wide-scale." Is there any proof that Putin and his inner circle knew about this? Absolutely not, but the Sports Ministry is a part of government and there's all kinds of evidence that senior officials there, including the deputy minister, the guy directly below Mutko, knew about and participated in the coverup.

Unless, of course, you don't believe in the authenticity of that evidence.

You would have to be either naive or completley ignorant as to how Russian goverment operates to believe Russian offical version. IF the sports minister knew about it- and it sure looks that way- Higher ups AND Putin couldnt have not been involved- nothing in Russia happens without Putins direct approval.
 

Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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It depends on your definition of "Russian government" and "wide-scale." Is there any proof that Putin and his inner circle knew about this? Absolutely not, but the Sports Ministry is a part of government and there's all kinds of evidence that senior officials there, including the deputy minister, the guy directly below Mutko, knew about and participated in the coverup.

Unless, of course, you don't believe in the authenticity of that evidence.

I believe that the authenticity of the claims made against Russia cannot be adequately judged without proper and fair cross-examination.

I also don't really care if Russian bureaucrats get banned from the Olympics. Mutko and others. They deserve the boot regardless, even if they didn't know.

The problem for me is the treatment of the athletes and the nation as a whole. It reeks because no one is asking the athletes about their point of view. They have no voice, no rights and virtually no opportunity to defend themselves. Even if some of them win their cases in courts, they are long ago declared guilty in the court of Western public opinion.
 
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Fantomas

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Aug 7, 2012
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Also Russian athletes won't win their cases because athletes almost never do.

The 2015 documentary Doped: The Dirty Side of Sports tells the story of Phil DeRosier, an American sprinter who served a six-month suspension for flunking a doping test. During that time, DeRosier couldn't race. Couldn't land sponsorships. He essentially lost a half-year's worth of income. Still, he would have been OK with that—if he had actually done something wrong.

DeRosier had taken a legal nutritional supplement containing a stimulant, methylhexanamine, that was neither on the supplement's label nor on WADA's banned substance list. No matter. WADA rules allow athletes to be sanctioned not only for using specific banned substances but also for using "any and all similar substances." If that doesn't seem fair, well, it was enough for USADA.

"In my opinion, I was a quota," DeRosier says in the film. "Somebody to show that they're doing their job."

Other athletes have been punished under similarly dubious circumstances. LaShawn Merritt—the aforementioned American sprinter who ingested a sexual enhancement supplement containing a steroid hormone, ExtenZe, purchased at a convenience store after a night of dancing with his girlfriend—lost nearly two years of his career to the subsequent suspension, and had to fight a protracted legal battle in order to compete in the London Games. A decade earlier, tennis journeyman Martin Rodriguez was busted for having excess levels of—no, really—caffeine in his urine during a tournament in Switzerland.

During his legal appeal, Rodriguez laid out his defense. He had been hanging out in the tournament's players' lounge, waiting to take the court. He was bored. A tournament sponsor was offering free espressos, which were being served by an "attractive female." Rodriguez usually drank three or four cups of coffee before his matches; on this particular day, he may have enjoyed a few extra. He wasn't counting. Oh, and he also ingested "one or two" colas during his match, which was absolutely fine with the chair umpire.

In short, Rodriguez wasn't doping. He was thirsty. He still lost his appeal, and was forced to forfeit $6,725 in prize money. (WADA removed caffeine from its banned list in 2004.)

. . .

Earlier this year, tennis star Maria Sharapova received a two-year competitive ban after testing positive for meldonium, a heart medication she had been taking since a Moscow doctor prescribed it as an immune system booster in 2006. Hundreds of other athletes also have tested positive for the drug, which WADA added to its banned list at the beginning of 2016—even though there's no scientific evidence that it enhances athletic performance. Is that fair? Does it solve an actual problem? The anonymous former pro cyclist is skeptical.

"You have these WADA people completely crucifying a whole bunch of athletes for this," he says. "Show me one study that proves it's performance-enhancing. Show me. Because if you can't, it shouldn't be on the list. And they just f***ed hundreds of athletes."

The Drugs Won: The Case for Ending the Sports War on Doping
 

Dropkick Murphy

Registered User
Jul 9, 2011
178
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In the bubble
Still, there is zero clean russian athletes banned from next games, so your complaining is more or less amusing. Actually this winter games ban is effectively lighter than what happened regarding Rio summer games.

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